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GMs to discuss size of goalie equipment

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02-20-2013, 03:37 PM
  #151
Gigantor The Goalie
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Why does it matter that goalies aren't coming out en masse to decry equipment size?

Why would one of the players who pioneered large equipment come out and say large equipment is bad? Roy doesn't strike me as someone who would say "oh hey, discredit/diminish a few years of my career because those pads I was using helped me." Why would he do that? Why would any goalie who played in that era be motivated to do that?
Pioneered large equipment? So now I'm being told that Roy actually won all those awards and records and trophies because he used large equipment? So happy to know that. This is the first I'm hearing about someone complaining about Roy about goalie equipment.

Why is Dryden more respected then Roy? Wouldn't Roy know a few more things about the game then someone like Dryden. Once again Dryden has not touched upon the subject of goalie equipment since it was trimmed down after the lockout which means he either agrees thats enough or he just doesn't care anymore.

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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Why would we give any credence to someone who thinks Martin Brodeur is a fraud?
It's a joke so lighten up. Satire at its best. And you don't want to give it credence because "goalies have no skillz, its all about the flops"

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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
GG - I don't think anyone here is saying "Goalies are bad and need to change." I don't mean to accuse you personally, but the message that seems to come from your posts is "We have all this great equipment, and we have a right to use it, because we have a right to our .920 save %age." "We are beating those **** shooters and no one is going to take away our right to beat them!!!"

I don't really care who wins - the shooters or the goalies. That is as useless a contest as "Who won the lockout?" The question is: How can the game be better? If the game is better if the goalies have a little less equipment to use and still be safe, and the d-men have less padding so there are fewer blocked shots, that is what I want.
There's no proof saying that the game will get better if goalie equipment is trimmed down. Its already been trimmed down. If they keep trimming it down then their falling under the definition of insanity. Start with the players equipment this time then we'll talk about the goalies equipment.

Also not sure what you mean by "if goalies have a little less equipment to use". Are you actually asking to take away equipment from the goalies? I can't imagine taking any piece of equipment away. Trimming it down yes, taking it away bad idea.

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02-20-2013, 03:40 PM
  #152
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
It's a joke so lighten up. Satire at its best. And you don't want to give it credence because "goalies have no skillz, its all about the flops"
I don't think goaltenders "have no skillz".....however I DO have a problem with people who think goaltenders from before the DPE didn't. You know, the old "there were lots of goalz in da ate-eez cuz all the goaltenderz sucked back den" routine.

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02-20-2013, 03:42 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Pioneered large equipment? So now I'm being told that Roy actually won all those awards and records and trophies because he used large equipment? So happy to know that. This is the first I'm hearing about someone complaining about Roy about goalie equipment.
How did you read my post and derive ANY of these things from it? That's truly mystifying.

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02-20-2013, 03:44 PM
  #154
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I don't think goaltenders "have no skillz".....however I DO have a problem with people who think goaltenders from before the DPE didn't. You know, the old "there were lots of goalz in da ate-eez cuz all the goaltenderz sucked back den" routine.
You have claimed that goalies nowadays have less skill. I have never said that goalies back in the 80's and further are worse. I have said that the NHL has changed since they have played. Players are faster, better trained and access to better equipment.

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02-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
There's no proof saying that the game will get better if goalie equipment is trimmed down. Its already been trimmed down. If they keep trimming it down then their falling under the definition of insanity. Start with the players equipment this time then we'll talk about the goalies equipment.

Also not sure what you mean by "if goalies have a little less equipment to use". Are you actually asking to take away equipment from the goalies? I can't imagine taking any piece of equipment away. Trimming it down yes, taking it away bad idea.
GtG - No need to take away any equipment. And, you say there is no proof the game will get better.... Is that not admitting there is a problem?

Like I said, give them the padding they need to be safe - chest pads the same thickness, just not as wide outside the body. Shin pads same thickness, same material, just cut 1/2" off of them. It won't make them unsafe. Thigh rises, whatever. You said yourself that you like them because they 'seal the 5 hole'.

Maybe the people who run the game would decide that they don't want thigh rises 'sealing a 5 hole' for the goalie....

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02-20-2013, 03:48 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
You have claimed that goalies nowadays have less skill. I have never said that goalies back in the 80's and further are worse. I have said that the NHL has changed since they have played. Players are faster, better trained and access to better equipment.
You're also claiming that equipment size isn't influencing scoring decline. Inferring that there was "something wrong" with those pre-pad explosion goaltenders.

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02-20-2013, 03:49 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
It's punishment because the goalies haven't done anything wrong. There is no proof that goaltending equipment is the cause for goals going down or lack of scoring. There's no reason to scale it down. Possibly lead to more injuries, goalie equipment isn't made to stop injuries from collisions in the first place. Force goalies to use more athleticism or whatever and you'll see many straining and pulling muscles. Life of a goalie isn't as easy as everyone wants to believe it is.
Seriously? That's your argument against trimming chest protectors, pants, and thigh rises? Also, get off your pedestal. I've been a goaltender for 20 years, very recently spending 4 between the pipes at a Division I NCAA school, as well as trained with Scrivens and Quick. So don't play the "you just don't understand" card.

You and I both know what thigh rises are for. You and I both know what half the foam on a chest protector is for. You and I both know what the inner thigh blocks in goalie pants are for. It's not for safety. Let's get rid of them and see how the game evolves, eh?

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02-20-2013, 03:50 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How did you read my post and derive ANY of these things from it? That's truly mystifying.
This is what i am trying to get GtG's eyes open to. Like I said, it sounds like he is saying " We are beating those rotten shooters, and don't you dare take away anything that is making us beat them...."

It doesn't seem rational.

He says "the 2" thigh rises help me close the 5-hole." Well, maybe there should be another way for that to happen...

And, so on.....

It's not that I think he is wrong, so much, as it is that he seems to have decided that the world is against the goalie, and he is standing up for their rights, instead of entering into a reasonable discussion.


Last edited by MNNumbers: 02-20-2013 at 03:52 PM. Reason: last paragraph
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02-20-2013, 03:56 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Seriously? That's your argument against trimming chest protectors, pants, and thigh rises? Also, get off your pedestal. I've been a goaltender for 20 years, very recently spending 4 between the pipes at a Division I NCAA school, as well as trained with Scrivens and Quick. So don't play the "you just don't understand" card.

You and I both know what thigh rises are for. You and I both know what half the foam on a chest protector is for. You and I both know what the inner thigh blocks in goalie pants are for. It's not for safety. Let's get rid of them and see how the game evolves, eh?
I think they have a traitor in their midst boys.

Look I am getting up there in age, and as a shooter I remember coming down the wing and having some net to shoot at, especially to the long side. A hard, well-placed shot from the wing should beat a goalie cleanly now and then. That would bring some of the skill of sniping back into the game.

Now goals only seem to be scored off deflections or net mouth scrambles.

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02-20-2013, 03:58 PM
  #160
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I think they have a traitor in their midst boys.
Wooden sticks too!

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02-20-2013, 04:01 PM
  #161
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Wooden sticks too!
Agreed. Why aren't we on the rules committee??

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02-20-2013, 04:04 PM
  #162
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Don't forget softer pads. Less shot blocking and probably less concussions!

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02-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #163
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(Look at the amount of pucks behind Alex, hah)

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02-20-2013, 05:50 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Seriously? That's your argument against trimming chest protectors, pants, and thigh rises? Also, get off your pedestal. I've been a goaltender for 20 years, very recently spending 4 between the pipes at a Division I NCAA school, as well as trained with Scrivens and Quick. So don't play the "you just don't understand" card.

You and I both know what thigh rises are for. You and I both know what half the foam on a chest protector is for. You and I both know what the inner thigh blocks in goalie pants are for. It's not for safety. Let's get rid of them and see how the game evolves, eh?
You know, I wouldn't even mind if the position changed to force teams to have goalie depth and not just one superstar. If it becomes impossible to play goalie more than 50-55 games due to being banged up, that's good for hockey IMO.

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02-20-2013, 05:57 PM
  #165
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You know, I wouldn't even mind if the position changed to force teams to have goalie depth and not just one superstar. If it becomes impossible to play goalie more than 50-55 games due to being banged up, that's good for hockey IMO.
Hey, the tandem goalie system was all the rage for about 20 years and the game didn't suffer an apocalypse because of it.

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02-20-2013, 06:42 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Seriously? That's your argument against trimming chest protectors, pants, and thigh rises? Also, get off your pedestal. I've been a goaltender for 20 years, very recently spending 4 between the pipes at a Division I NCAA school, as well as trained with Scrivens and Quick. So don't play the "you just don't understand" card.

You and I both know what thigh rises are for. You and I both know what half the foam on a chest protector is for. You and I both know what the inner thigh blocks in goalie pants are for. It's not for safety. Let's get rid of them and see how the game evolves, eh?
What's your name and school, I love catching D1 players on the internet.

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02-20-2013, 06:50 PM
  #167
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Anyhow, after hanging out at goaliestore.com and hearing people who have talked to equipment people at Brian's directly, the chest protectors could be smaller.

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02-20-2013, 11:55 PM
  #168
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Ok, chest protectors could be more form fitting, but please stop messing with the goaltenders equipment. Enough is enough!!!

Has anyone done research on goaltenders knee/hip problems and possible links to goalie pads? I am sure the knee stacks being shrunk has not helped.

If the NHL is so hell bent on changing hockey, why don't they just adopt NBA rules! Shot from the blue line, 3 points. Anything else, two points. Heck, you score from the red line, 5 points. Score from behind your own goal line, congratulations you just won the game.

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02-21-2013, 12:02 AM
  #169
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If the NHL is so hell bent on changing hockey, why don't they just adopt NBA rules!
The game was already changed in the '90s. We're talking about UNDOING the changes made back then.

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02-21-2013, 12:05 AM
  #170
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Ok, chest protectors could be more form fitting, but please stop messing with the goaltenders equipment. Enough is enough!!!

Has anyone done research on goaltenders knee/hip problems and possible links to goalie pads? I am sure the knee stacks being shrunk has not helped.

If the NHL is so hell bent on changing hockey, why don't they just adopt NBA rules! Shot from the blue line, 3 points. Anything else, two points. Heck, you score from the red line, 5 points. Score from behind your own goal line, congratulations you just won the game.
This kind of ridiculous spin doesnt help your cause. Trying to invalidate all concerns by twisting it into the ridiculous solves nothing. Its simply unhelpful.

They long since have the technology to make goalie equipment FIT the goalie making him slightly bigger than the other players. Thats all.

It doesnt sell because goalies wont buy it. They want the BIGGEST equipment allowed so they can go into the butterfly and take up as much net as possible. Its a JOKE.

If you watch games from the 70s adn 80s , and even 90s before they adopted the butterfly lets wear space suits mentality, you see that its harder for the goalie to stop the puck. Its not about injury.

I am all for goalies making great saves. I am all for the RARE 1-0 or 2-1 game, provided there are spectacular saves off HONEST to goodness grade A scoring chances . And also 5 goal posts each to boot.

Not just taking shots from all angles hoping for a rebound so each goalie has a .950 save percentage crap. Shooting it in from center on net to pad the totals even further. Screw this.

Whats the point of more action if they arent accomplishing dry crap. They cant. The forwards block the shots. The defensemen block the shots. The chances of you getting a straight on shot with no angle is basically NONE.

Make the equipment fit the goalie, not protect the goal. This will still provide great saves but more goals.

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02-21-2013, 12:12 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Pioneered large equipment? So now I'm being told that Roy actually won all those awards and records and trophies because he used large equipment? So happy to know that. This is the first I'm hearing about someone complaining about Roy about goalie equipment.

Why is Dryden more respected then Roy? Wouldn't Roy know a few more things about the game then someone like Dryden. Once again Dryden has not touched upon the subject of goalie equipment since it was trimmed down after the lockout which means he either agrees thats enough or he just doesn't care anymore.



It's a joke so lighten up. Satire at its best. And you don't want to give it credence because "goalies have no skillz, its all about the flops"



There's no proof saying that the game will get better if goalie equipment is trimmed down. Its already been trimmed down. If they keep trimming it down then their falling under the definition of insanity. Start with the players equipment this time then we'll talk about the goalies equipment.

Also not sure what you mean by "if goalies have a little less equipment to use". Are you actually asking to take away equipment from the goalies? I can't imagine taking any piece of equipment away. Trimming it down yes, taking it away bad idea.
Trimmed down to WHAT? Instead of 500% bigger they 'trimmed it down ' to 467% bigger?

What a bunch of bull crap.

I have been watching hockey since 1977, so I would say I DO have a good opinion on this. The game we have now moves way faster and accomplishes far LESS .

what they call a 'great save' is now a routine save because the goalies wear space suits and go into the butterfly to take up the net.

The object of the game is score more goals than your opponent. Not win 1-0 and board up the net.

For every 2-1 game that is 'exciting' with glorious chances , there are another 19 which are boring trap fests with no real honest scoring chances and some fluke bounce ended up in the net. Yipee .

The people defending this ridiculous goalie equipment obviously arent paying $30,000 a year for season tickets to watch this crap. Racing up and down the ice, accomplishing dry crap most of the time.

And finally when you do actually have a chance you get to face this BLIMP who has boarded up the net. Great job.

No wonder they are looking at overhauling the goalie equipment.

No 'trimming' . Overhaul it all.

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02-21-2013, 12:21 AM
  #172
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Trimmed down to WHAT? Instead of 500% bigger they 'trimmed it down ' to 467% bigger?

What a bunch of bull crap.

I have been watching hockey since 1977, so I would say I DO have a good opinion on this. The game we have now moves way faster and accomplishes far LESS .

what they call a 'great save' is now a routine save because the goalies wear space suits and go into the butterfly to take up the net.

The object of the game is score more goals than your opponent. Not win 1-0 and board up the net.

For every 2-1 game that is 'exciting' with glorious chances , there are another 19 which are boring trap fests with no real honest scoring chances and some fluke bounce ended up in the net. Yipee .

The people defending this ridiculous goalie equipment obviously arent paying $30,000 a year for season tickets to watch this crap. Racing up and down the ice, accomplishing dry crap most of the time.

And finally when you do actually have a chance you get to face this BLIMP who has boarded up the net. Great job.

No wonder they are looking at overhauling the goalie equipment.

No 'trimming' . Overhaul it all.
Bravo Sir!

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02-21-2013, 02:27 AM
  #173
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Seriously? That's your argument against trimming chest protectors, pants, and thigh rises? Also, get off your pedestal. I've been a goaltender for 20 years, very recently spending 4 between the pipes at a Division I NCAA school, as well as trained with Scrivens and Quick. So don't play the "you just don't understand" card.

You and I both know what thigh rises are for. You and I both know what half the foam on a chest protector is for. You and I both know what the inner thigh blocks in goalie pants are for. It's not for safety. Let's get rid of them and see how the game evolves, eh?
I agree that trimming those things is the right thing to do, (I'm a goalie too, albeit I only ever played house league and beer league), and I know what you're taking about. I guess what I think is that I'm not sure it will really make much of a difference. Without drastically and completely changing what the position has become by shrinking and modifying the gear completely, I don't know how much difference it will make. Even if the chest protectors are more form fitting, butterflying will still be effective because protection won't be sacrificed, and I'm not afraid to have the puck hit my chest. Pads will still seal the ice, and goalies at a high level will still lock their knees for their butterfly and work on flexibility to widen it. I just don't know if there's much short of a draconian and drastic change in goalie gear that will change it.

The other little cheater goalies used to have was the calf wedges, my old pads had these and my new ones don't. When I first switched to pads with no calf wedges, I got burned a lot on goals that I used to stop by just a hair. After a few weeks with the new pads I adjusted to the lack of calf wedges and worked at getting down into the butterfly faster. It gave opposing forwards an initial increase in scoring, but it really was rather short lived. I think (especially with NHL goalies instead of scrubs like me) this adjustment process won't be very long at all. I agree that the thigh rises, C/A's, and pants have gotten a bit silly, but I don't think there'll be much more scoring from changing the equipment without completely overhauling it, which I don't know if the NHL is prepared to do.


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02-21-2013, 03:32 AM
  #174
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Quite a few people in this thread should prolly lace 'em up and play goal.

1) 'superhuman cat-like reflexes' are overrated. You're not reacting to a high-level shooter wiring one from the slow no matter how 'fast' you are.

2) Goalies now are much better athletes than they were in the 80s.

3) Modern goaltending is not 'easy'. These NHL goalies are fantastic at their craft.

4) Although there is room to cut the equipment size (there are some cheaters that can get removed), it is probably less than you think and over the long-haul it will have less effect than you think as well. Look at the cut from 12" to 11" pads that adjusted to goalie size? After a slight initial increase in production goalies are now better than ever.

5) If you watch the games, the problem is the number of scoring chances, but the number of goals. Teams are so good at clogging up the ice that most of the shots on goal are low percentage to begin with.

Grade 'A' scoring chances still go in at a very high rate, the problem is teams are taking those away.

Making the net bigger or anything else that allows the occasional long range goal to go in will not increase scoring chances, just increase the number of lame goals.

Any chance to make the game more exciting or open it up needs to happen away from the net. It comes down to systems, coaching, etc.

Actually one change that I feel slowed the game down was the removal of the red line for 2-line passing. Although it does allow the occasional stretch pass breakaway, it is the reason teams are camping out at the blue line.

In the past, teams brought their defense up more, which in-turn created more turnovers but also caused them to get beat more.

The biggest hindrance to the speed of the game now is the blue line, as it is the biggest weapon being used by coaches to slow teams down. How to stop that, I have no idea. Removing it isn't going to help as it will just lead to cherrypicking. Maybe it has to do with the size of the offensive zone? Maybe on the initial zone entry players can go in before the puck as long as it's not a 2-line pass (thus not allowing teams to just sit on the blue line and clog the entry, forcing dump ins).

Not really sure what the best idea is but I think it's going to take more creative thinking than "make the pads smaller"

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02-21-2013, 09:02 AM
  #175
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Quite a few people in this thread should prolly lace 'em up and play goal.

1) 'superhuman cat-like reflexes' are overrated. You're not reacting to a high-level shooter wiring one from the slow no matter how 'fast' you are.

2) Goalies now are much better athletes than they were in the 80s.

3) Modern goaltending is not 'easy'. These NHL goalies are fantastic at their craft.

4) Although there is room to cut the equipment size (there are some cheaters that can get removed), it is probably less than you think and over the long-haul it will have less effect than you think as well. Look at the cut from 12" to 11" pads that adjusted to goalie size? After a slight initial increase in production goalies are now better than ever.

5) If you watch the games, the problem is the number of scoring chances, but the number of goals. Teams are so good at clogging up the ice that most of the shots on goal are low percentage to begin with.

Grade 'A' scoring chances still go in at a very high rate, the problem is teams are taking those away.

Making the net bigger or anything else that allows the occasional long range goal to go in will not increase scoring chances, just increase the number of lame goals.

Any chance to make the game more exciting or open it up needs to happen away from the net. It comes down to systems, coaching, etc.

Actually one change that I feel slowed the game down was the removal of the red line for 2-line passing. Although it does allow the occasional stretch pass breakaway, it is the reason teams are camping out at the blue line.

In the past, teams brought their defense up more, which in-turn created more turnovers but also caused them to get beat more.

The biggest hindrance to the speed of the game now is the blue line, as it is the biggest weapon being used by coaches to slow teams down. How to stop that, I have no idea. Removing it isn't going to help as it will just lead to cherrypicking. Maybe it has to do with the size of the offensive zone? Maybe on the initial zone entry players can go in before the puck as long as it's not a 2-line pass (thus not allowing teams to just sit on the blue line and clog the entry, forcing dump ins).

Not really sure what the best idea is but I think it's going to take more creative thinking than "make the pads smaller"
I've always been personally interested to see an NHL game played with modified offside/roller rules. Either no blue line or someone can cross the blue line before the puck so long as the puck is carried over the line.

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