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Blues Trade Proposals Part 3

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02-20-2013, 02:53 PM
  #976
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Despres is not ready for the big minutes. Cole is currently better suited to play more minutes. Despres might have more potential, but currently Cole is the better option.

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02-20-2013, 02:56 PM
  #977
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I'd probably say that Stewart is off the "block" as he has returned to his old form. When him and Berglund are on together, they are unstoppable.

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02-20-2013, 02:59 PM
  #978
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Lets give Halak the chance to at least have a healthy playoffs with us before we start doing hypothetical trade scenarios.

On a side note, I'm gonna laugh when ROR doesn't return what HF thinks he will. Not many teams are going to give up a similar asset that is already signed for a RFA that wants a big payday, especially with the cap coming down.

$5 million next season would be $5.5 million this season when the cap is lowered. That's the level that you hope ROR gets to, not the level that he is currently at.
The market dictates what a player is worth. When Pittsburgh can get Sutter, Dumoulin and the 8th overall for Jordan Staal, when he had basically made it clear he was signing for the 'Canes in a year anyway... there are a lot of crazy GM's out there when it comes to 2-way centres!

Your expectations are far to rational to be applied to the insanity of some organisations.

On the subject of ROR and insanity, has everyone seen the response his father "wrote" to a fan that a Av's reporter published?

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02-20-2013, 03:16 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Despres is not ready for the big minutes. Cole is currently better suited to play more minutes. Despres might have more potential, but currently Cole is the better option.
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I'd probably say that Stewart is off the "block" as he has returned to his old form. When him and Berglund are on together, they are unstoppable.
That suggestion was more for the end of the season. I agree that Després isn't ready for the big minutes right now, but having watched him play, I think that could change very soon.

I still don't know what to think with Stewart. He might be here next season, but I can't see it being anything other than another 1 year deal. He has returned to his old self, but his old self is still a streaky player. His value is going to be highest when he is playing well and the team that trades for him can give him the contract they want. Oshie and Tarasenko aren't getting moved... Jaškin and Rattie will both be RW's in our system... that leaves Stewart.

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02-20-2013, 03:43 PM
  #980
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That suggestion was more for the end of the season. I agree that Després isn't ready for the big minutes right now, but having watched him play, I think that could change very soon.

I still don't know what to think with Stewart. He might be here next season, but I can't see it being anything other than another 1 year deal. He has returned to his old self, but his old self is still a streaky player. His value is going to be highest when he is playing well and the team that trades for him can give him the contract they want. Oshie and Tarasenko aren't getting moved... Jaškin and Rattie will both be RW's in our system... that leaves Stewart.
I'm saying Stewy gets a deal around 2-3 years around 2.5-3.5mil a year. After those years up depending on what the Blues look like and he looks like he will be gone or re-signed. By that time Jaskin and Rattie will have time to develop in the AHL while possibly coming up for a few games during the regular season due to injury.

Stewart so far has earned being kept on this club and I think the odd man out in the top-9 right now is Andy McDonald.

His play has dropped off quite a bit this year. he's been excellent on the power play but when trying to skate in circles or open up ice he fumbles the puck quite a bit and causes some serious odd-man rushes. I like that he is sort of mentoring Tarasenko but they should not be on a line together, there is just no chemistry and its hard to watch.

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02-20-2013, 03:59 PM
  #981
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I'm saying Stewy gets a deal around 2-3 years around 2.5-3.5mil a year. After those years up depending on what the Blues look like and he looks like he will be gone or re-signed. By that time Jaskin and Rattie will have time to develop in the AHL while possibly coming up for a few games during the regular season due to injury.

Stewart so far has earned being kept on this club and I think the odd man out in the top-9 right now is Andy McDonald.

His play has dropped off quite a bit this year. he's been excellent on the power play but when trying to skate in circles or open up ice he fumbles the puck quite a bit and causes some serious odd-man rushes. I like that he is sort of mentoring Tarasenko but they should not be on a line together, there is just no chemistry and its hard to watch.

Stewart is already getting $3 mil he is not going to take a pay cut especially considering he is playing a lot better this season than what he was when he signed that contract. He is going to want a raise and if he keeps up his play this season he will ask for at least $3.5

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02-20-2013, 04:03 PM
  #982
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Stewart is already getting $3 mil he is not going to take a pay cut especially considering he is playing a lot better this season than what he was when he signed that contract. He is going to want a raise and if he keeps up his play this season he will ask for at least $3.5
Was just a ballpark of what he will most likely get. I'm saying close to 9 or 10mil 3 years, don't underestimate Armstrong and how much more important signing Pietrangelo/Shattenkirk is to this team more than Stewart. I see Stewart's contract coming last in line of contract renewals.

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02-20-2013, 04:21 PM
  #983
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Jaskin's play is giving Armstrong more leverage and options re: Stewart. We've talked about it in this very thread – Stewart is in a tricky position with his next contract. One more RFA year then UFA, so any deal buying UFA years is going to be pricier. Among questions Armstrong has to ask himself: how much does he trust Stewart's consistency and internal motivation? Is this a prove-it year after which Stewart feels he has proved it and relaxes? Can I replace Stewart internally with prospects on an ELC? Jaskin's looking possibly ready to challenge and in another 2-3 years maybe Kurker/MacEachern have developed. Rattie is also a RW.

Maybe they move Stewart's rights simply to shift organizational strength. I think if Stewart goes for a reasonable, ~3.5M-ish AAV deal then he'll stay. But more than that prices him out. He's not a first line winger who will carry the team occasionally, he's not going to get more minutes than Oshie ever, and Tarasenko is far more skilled now and in the future. If he's on the Blues, he's a third line winger. Can the Blues pay a 3d liner 4M?

One thing is I'm not sure they'd trade him at the deadline unless the team is going through a slump period (while still being in playoff position). I wouldn't hate keeping him for the year and dealing him for a first at the draft in this great year.

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02-20-2013, 04:23 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Jaskin's play is giving Armstrong more leverage and options re: Stewart. We've talked about it in this very thread – Stewart is in a tricky position with his next contract. One more RFA year then UFA, so any deal buying UFA years is going to be pricier. Among questions Armstrong has to ask himself: how much does he trust Stewart's consistency and internal motivation? Is this a prove-it year after which Stewart feels he has proved it and relaxes? Can I replace Stewart internally with prospects on an ELC? Jaskin's looking possibly ready to challenge and in another 2-3 years maybe Kurker/MacEachern have developed. Rattie is also a RW.

Maybe they move Stewart's rights simply to shift organizational strength. I think if Stewart goes for a reasonable, ~3.5M-ish AAV deal then he'll stay. But more than that prices him out. He's not a first line winger who will carry the team occasionally, he's not going to get more minutes than Oshie ever, and Tarasenko is far more skilled now and in the future. If he's on the Blues, he's a third line winger. Can the Blues pay a 3d liner 4M?

One thing is I'm not sure they'd trade him at the deadline unless the team is going through a slump period (while still being in playoff position). I wouldn't hate keeping him for the year and dealing him for a first at the draft in this great year.
Exactly my thoughts P9

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02-20-2013, 04:54 PM
  #985
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I honestly don't understand the amount of vitriol that Cole seems to draw.

Cole has all of 62 NHL games under his belt, and another 109 professional games against men in the AHL. Take his production over those 62 games and you're looking at a projection of 3G, 12A, +19, 73 Hits, 107 Blocked Shots, 32 Giveaways, 13 Takeaways, and 89 PIM through his first 82 games.

For comparison, Jackman's Calder year: 82GP, 3G, 16A, +23, 52 Hits, 47 Blocked Shots, 36 Giveaways, 11 Takeaways, and 190 PIM. Jackman was 2 years younger when he put up his stats, but the more important thing is that he had already amassed 75 professional games against men in the AHL at that time.
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As things stand right now, only Jackman has a higher percentage of ES defensive zone starts on the team than Cole (among defensemen).

Only Pietrangelo averages more ESTOI per 60 minutes of play.

Nobody has faced a higher Corsi QoC at ES.

Nobody has a better GA/ON per 60 minutes of ES play (Cole's only been on the ice for 4 ES goals against all year)...and we all know that it isn't because Pietrangelo has been carrying him defensively.

The truth of the matter is that his limited time in the NHL has been productive, and lately he's doing relatively well in a significant NHL role in spite of his inexperience.

Heaven forbid Cole make a "rookie" mistake here and there. He's still a relative babe in terms of his professional development, so these things should be expected. Heck, far more experienced and accomplished players than him are going through worse struggles at the moment.

It just boggles my mind.

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02-20-2013, 04:57 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Jaskin's play is giving Armstrong more leverage and options re: Stewart. We've talked about it in this very thread – Stewart is in a tricky position with his next contract. One more RFA year then UFA, so any deal buying UFA years is going to be pricier. Among questions Armstrong has to ask himself: how much does he trust Stewart's consistency and internal motivation? Is this a prove-it year after which Stewart feels he has proved it and relaxes? Can I replace Stewart internally with prospects on an ELC? Jaskin's looking possibly ready to challenge and in another 2-3 years maybe Kurker/MacEachern have developed. Rattie is also a RW.

Maybe they move Stewart's rights simply to shift organizational strength. I think if Stewart goes for a reasonable, ~3.5M-ish AAV deal then he'll stay. But more than that prices him out. He's not a first line winger who will carry the team occasionally, he's not going to get more minutes than Oshie ever, and Tarasenko is far more skilled now and in the future. If he's on the Blues, he's a third line winger. Can the Blues pay a 3d liner 4M?

One thing is I'm not sure they'd trade him at the deadline unless the team is going through a slump period (while still being in playoff position). I wouldn't hate keeping him for the year and dealing him for a first at the draft in this great year.
That basically sums it up. He isn't going to be moved at the deadline for the simple fact that we aren't going to be able to get the player that will significantly improve us in return.

If we do decide to keep him in the summer, I don't see any chance of a multi-year deal though. If he keeps up his play, then he has earned a raise, but I don't think he will have earned a 3+ year contract (2 years will not be on the table). 1 year/$3.5m makes the most sense.

Can the Blues afford to pay a third liner $4m? It is an interesting question because of how the team is built. If we are going to continue rolling 3 scoring lines, without elite offensive talent, then I think we are ultimately going to end up in that kind of situation.

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02-20-2013, 04:59 PM
  #987
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I've never understood it either. Hating on Cole has been a way for me to help understand who knows hockey and who doesn't.

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02-20-2013, 05:05 PM
  #988
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To be fair, many had Cole marked down as the heir apparent to Jackman. We just never realised that the expectation would cross over to fan perspective as well

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02-20-2013, 05:08 PM
  #989
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That basically sums it up. He isn't going to be moved at the deadline for the simple fact that we aren't going to be able to get the player that will significantly improve us in return.

If we do decide to keep him in the summer, I don't see any chance of a multi-year deal though. If he keeps up his play, then he has earned a raise, but I don't think he will have earned a 3+ year contract (2 years will not be on the table). 1 year/$3.5m makes the most sense.

Can the Blues afford to pay a third liner $4m? It is an interesting question because of how the team is built. If we are going to continue rolling 3 scoring lines, without elite offensive talent, then I think we are ultimately going to end up in that kind of situation.
I'm not sure I follow your thinking on why there wouldn't be a two year deal. He'd be UFA next summer, so another one year deal simply brings him to UFA status in which case the Blues are far likelier to lose his value for nothing. If they sign him for two years and buy one of his UFA years then they'll have more trading options. Same with three years. But guys who have played their ELC and then their bridge/prove-it contracts who have seemingly proved value are going to want that first contract getting into UFA land to establish their open-market price tag.

Another way to think of it. What if, instead of next summer, it were this summer he were UFA. What would he draw on the open market this summer after a rebound year? Certainly 4M+. He and his agent are going to feel they know the answer to that question when they go to negotiate with the Blues. He might take less to stay with the Blues and the team situation, and also the single RFA year will slightly take that AAV number down (but only slightly).

Yes, maybe the Blues intend to have three second lines with a mix of ~4Mish players and ELC guys going forward. It's possible.

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02-20-2013, 05:21 PM
  #990
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If he signs another 1 year deal, he will still be a RFA at the end of it. You have to be 27 or have 7 years in the League to become an UFA, Stewart will still only be 26 and have 6 years come July 2014.

Under those circumstances a 2 year deal wouldn't make any sense from an organisational point of view.

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02-20-2013, 05:34 PM
  #991
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I honestly don't understand the amount of vitriol that Cole seems to draw.
It all stems from the Blues putting this raw, inexperienced youngster on their top pairing. It's crazy to think this is the best way to go about winning a championship.

It also stems from the fact that at best Cole has been average this year. Lately he has been below average.

I like Cole IN THE LONG RUN. However, the Blues have a cup contender now. We've got to get an experienced d-man to play with Petro. That isn't hate for Cole, that's just smart. Cole isn't ready for the role he has now.

BTW the ice time stats are nice but he is getting that ice time because of Pietrangelo. Hitchcock clearly isn't in a hurry to break up his other 2 pairings as evidenced by him putting Redden with Petro right away. When Pietrangelo is out there, Cole is gonna be out there as well. Hitch isn't going to throw Jax out there and screw up good chemistry on a strong pairing. Heck we've seen Jax with Petro in the past and it isn't effective.

And you talk about ES goals, that Burrows breakaway that Cole allowed doesn't go into that because Allen bailed his butt out. How about the penalties Cole took late in the 3rd periods against Detroit and Vancouver? (Spare me the cherry picking comments, there's been numerous shaky plays. I've only got so much time to make this post).

If you're watching the games, you know Cole hasn't been good lately. Not even close. He was much better to start the year. Sadly he is getting worse the more games he plays and that is perplexing. I've always said play him more to let him get comfortable. He isn't getting comfortable at all.

The Blues have a contender. Do you really want to go into the playoffs with a raw Ian Cole as a top pairing d-man? I'm not sure I do. Cole will have to make some strides between now and the trade deadline. He doesn't have to be Scott Stevens. He just has to be better. If that is asking for too much...well...it's not.

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02-20-2013, 05:38 PM
  #992
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I've never understood it either. Hating on Cole has been a way for me to help understand who knows hockey and who doesn't.
Wow, really?

So hating on Cole for taking a dumb penalty late in the 3rd period against Vancouver and then letting Burrows walk around him in OT for a breakaway is acceptable???

I like the kid but give me a break.

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02-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #993
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Wow, really?

So hating on Cole for taking a dumb penalty late in the 3rd period against Vancouver and then letting Burrows walk around him in OT for a breakaway is acceptable???

I like the kid but give me a break.
Oh please. You know the difference (or should). Nitpicking individual moments which is done with every player on the roster ≠ "Ian Cole is terrible," "Ian Cole shouldn't be playing" and the like.

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02-20-2013, 05:46 PM
  #994
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If he signs another 1 year deal, he will still be a RFA at the end of it. You have to be 27 or have 7 years in the League to become an UFA, Stewart will still only be 26 and have 6 years come July 2014.

Under those circumstances a 2 year deal wouldn't make any sense from an organisational point of view.
Ok I see what you mean. I doubt he signs a one-year deal though. Remember he was at 3.25M and took a pay cut down to 3M for the one year. I'd be very surprised if he or his agent were willing to go another single year. I think it would be a 3-4 year deal for this reason.

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02-20-2013, 05:54 PM
  #995
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Oh please. You know the difference (or should). Nitpicking individual moments which is done with every player on the roster ≠ "Ian Cole is terrible," "Ian Cole shouldn't be playing" and the like.
So I have to list every moment where Cole made a poor play in order to not nitpick? You don't watch the games?

I told you guys to spare me the cherry picking comments. They don't help you or protect Cole. He has been below average lately. Anyone watching the games without a Cole jersey on should see that.

I want the kid to play better as it would fill a HUGE hole for us. However he has just been average this year and worse of late.

BTW, I never said Ian Cole shouldn't be playing or that he is terrible. All I've said is that he isn't ready for the assignment he has been given. Get a legit partner for Petro and put Cole with Polak.

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02-20-2013, 05:57 PM
  #996
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I honestly don't understand the amount of vitriol that Cole seems to draw.

Cole has all of 62 NHL games under his belt, and another 109 professional games against men in the AHL. Take his production over those 62 games and you're looking at a projection of 3G, 12A, +19, 73 Hits, 107 Blocked Shots, 32 Giveaways, 13 Takeaways, and 89 PIM through his first 82 games.

For comparison, Jackman's Calder year: 82GP, 3G, 16A, +23, 52 Hits, 47 Blocked Shots, 36 Giveaways, 11 Takeaways, and 190 PIM. Jackman was 2 years younger when he put up his stats, but the more important thing is that he had already amassed 75 professional games against men in the AHL at that time.
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As things stand right now, only Jackman has a higher percentage of ES defensive zone starts on the team than Cole (among defensemen).

Only Pietrangelo averages more ESTOI per 60 minutes of play.

Nobody has faced a higher Corsi QoC at ES.

Nobody has a better GA/ON per 60 minutes of ES play (Cole's only been on the ice for 4 ES goals against all year)...and we all know that it isn't because Pietrangelo has been carrying him defensively.

The truth of the matter is that his limited time in the NHL has been productive, and lately he's doing relatively well in a significant NHL role in spite of his inexperience.

Heaven forbid Cole make a "rookie" mistake here and there. He's still a relative babe in terms of his professional development, so these things should be expected. Heck, far more experienced and accomplished players than him are going through worse struggles at the moment.

It just boggles my mind.
Agree with everything here. It seems Cole has replaced Jackman as the whipping boy on the backend.

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02-20-2013, 06:01 PM
  #997
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So I have to list every moment where Cole made a poor play in order to not nitpick? You don't watch the games?

I told you guys to spare me the cherry picking comments. They don't help you or protect Cole. He has been below average lately. Anyone watching the games without a Cole jersey on should see that.

I want the kid to play better as it would fill a HUGE hole for us. However he has just been average this year and worse of late.

BTW, I never said Ian Cole shouldn't be playing or that he is terrible. All I've said is that he isn't ready for the assignment he has been given. Get a legit partner for Petro and put Cole with Polak.
Two things.

One, saying "Cole has been below average lately" and the like are blanket statements that carry little weight. Cole has easily been a stronger, more solid, better option than vets Redden and Russell and "anyone should see that." I feel fine with Cole in there, personally.

Two, there is a clear difference between arguing Cole isn't perfectly suited to the top line duty at this point in his career and the Cole sucks type of comments. You really should not make me have to explain this. For whatever reason, you took taking issue with "Cole sucks" sentiment to be the same as taking issue with sentiment that he's not in the correct spot on the roster. I don't know why you got defensive like that, but you did and you should have really understood the difference without going down this road of dispute.

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02-20-2013, 06:05 PM
  #998
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Agree with everything here. It seems Cole has replaced Jackman as the whipping boy on the backend.
Now if only Cole could play like Jackman then we'd be set on D!

Jax has been so good! I almost got in a fight at a Mizzou tailgate about 4 years ago defending Jackman. That guy did NOT like Jax.

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02-20-2013, 06:13 PM
  #999
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It all stems from the Blues putting this raw, inexperienced youngster on their top pairing. It's crazy to think this is the best way to go about winning a championship.
He's there because he's outplaying Russell and Redden. If you're looking to transfering your angst about the roster construction onto a player, why not direct it at the guys who should be playing better, but aren't?

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BTW the ice time stats are nice but he is getting that ice time because of Pietrangelo.
If someone else was playing well enough to eat into that ice time, they would be getting it. Hitchcock isn't a slave to his pairings. If he didn't trust Cole to be getting those defensive zone starts and that much ice time (relative to the other options he has), he would be spreading it out situationally to those he did trust to do the job.

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And you talk about ES goals, that Burrows breakaway that Cole allowed doesn't go into that because Allen bailed his butt out.
Burrows made a good play in (a lot of) space during 4-on-4 hockey at the end of OT. That one play was hardly indicative of Cole's overall performance that game, which was fairly good against a pretty touch matchup.

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How about the penalties Cole took late in the 3rd periods against Detroit and Vancouver?
He was hardly the only guy who got tagged with a penalty in those games, nor is that a standard to judge an entire game's body of work on.

Try making a list of guys who haven't made a bad play or taken a bad penalty this year. I'll bet it's really short, if you can make one at all. Based on his experience and assignments, you would be expecting Cole to make a lot of mistakes if he was truly playing poorly. He's not.

Quote:
If you're watching the games, you know Cole hasn't been good lately. Not even close. He was much better to start the year. Sadly he is getting worse the more games he plays and that is perplexing. I've always said play him more to let him get comfortable. He isn't getting comfortable at all.
I've watched every game, and we appear to have very different interpretations of what we're seeing.

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The Blues have a contender. Do you really want to go into the playoffs with a raw Ian Cole as a top pairing d-man? I'm not sure I do. Cole will have to make some strides between now and the trade deadline. He doesn't have to be Scott Stevens. He just has to be better. If that is asking for too much...well...it's not.
Not really, but we don't always get what we want. On the list of things wrong with this team at the moment, Cole's play is pretty far down the list. Based on what fans are saying, you would think it would be near the top.

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