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Old
02-20-2013, 05:22 PM
  #726
Vaasa
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
But that bottom-6 is horrendous, and with how Clowe is playing, he's not a top-6 foward. That is not good for this team. I can't imagine him being re-signed at that much.
Burish was just signed for $1.9 mil for 4 years. Handzus for $2.5 mil. Nic Wallin. Colin White. Sorry, does Doug Wilson have a history of not signing terrible deals for borderline players that I don't know about?

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02-20-2013, 05:23 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Burish was just signed for $1.9 mil for 4 years. Handzus for $2.5 mil. Nic Wallin. Colin White. Sorry, does Doug Wilson have a history of not signing terrible deals for borderline players that I don't know about?
I'm trying to be positive here, damnit.

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02-20-2013, 05:26 PM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Burish was just signed for $1.9 mil for 4 years. Handzus for $2.5 mil. Nic Wallin. Colin White. Sorry, does Doug Wilson have a history of not signing terrible deals for borderline players that I don't know about?
Demers and Braun at 1.25. Vlasic at 4.25, Burns at 5.76, Pavelski at 4, Couture at 2.8. (bolded were players becoming UFAs).
He has a history of overpaying for FAs (since you have to), but you can't say he has a tendency of overpaying his own guys.

I also don't see how Colin White at 1 million was a terrible deal.

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02-20-2013, 05:33 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Demers and Braun at 1.25. Vlasic at 4.25, Burns at 5.76, Pavelski at 4, Couture at 2.8. (bolded were players becoming UFAs).
He has a history of overpaying for FAs (since you have to), but you can't say he has a tendency of overpaying his own guys.

I also don't see how Colin White at 1 million was a terrible deal.
Did you note that part of my sentence that said "for borderline players"? Demers, Braun, Burns, and the others aren't borderline players.

And White was terrible just by being signed. He had just been bought out, he was horrendously slow, and he wasn't that good to begin with. Just signing White was a mistake. And signing him for anything over league minimum was a bigger mistake.

As for overpaying his own guys, I honestly think he'll see getting Clowe in the $4-5 mil range as a bargain. If DW perceived Clowe in anything remotely the same way the fans on this board do, he would have been gone last year. The fact that Clowe is still with the org and still getting consistent top-6 minutes means that DW still see's Clowe as a critical part of the Top-6. More so than Havlat. That right there should be all you need to see to understand how DW is valuing Clowe. Given that Clowe will be signing his first post-30 contract, I'm sure DW will want to pay him "fair value" in his view for his prime UFA years.

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02-20-2013, 05:34 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'm trying to be positive here, damnit.
Sorry. I shall stop bringing you down then.

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02-20-2013, 05:34 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post

Matt Pelech ($0.550m) / James Sheppard ($0.900m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
Matt Pelech is one of the worst players to play for the Sharks in recent memory. I can't fathom how you could even put him on the 25 man roster, let alone actually on the third line. The guy is terrible. I have absolutely no idea why he was called up, and I'm at a complete loss as to why he actually is being dressed. He has 12 goals in 269 career games. OH DID I FORGET TO MENTION THOSE ARE AHL GAMES. Pelech is an AHL goon. He's not even good enough to play that role at the NHL level.

Seriously. He played 6 minutes last night and managed to be on the ice for almost half of the Blues' ES scoring chances. How do you manage a Corsi +/- of -6 in 6 minutes?!

Please Vaasa, you cannot be serious.

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02-20-2013, 05:39 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Matt Pelech is one of the worst players to play for the Sharks in recent memory. I can't fathom how you could even put him on the 25 man roster, let alone actually on the third line. The guy is terrible. I have absolutely no idea why he was called up, and I'm at a complete loss as to why he actually is being dressed. He has 12 goals in 269 career games. OH DID I FORGET TO MENTION THOSE ARE AHL GAMES. Pelech is an AHL goon. He's not even good enough to play that role at the NHL level.

Seriously. He played 6 minutes last night and managed to be on the ice for almost half of the Blues' ES scoring chances. How do you manage a Corsi +/- of -6 in 6 minutes?!

Please Vaasa, you cannot be serious.
If you bothered to read a bit further you would see:

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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
And whether it's Pelech or whoever, the point was merely that they can fill a forward spot with a nearly minimum guy.
So take your pick. Pelech, Reid, McCarthy, someone from outside the org. It doesn't really matter who you name, as long as they come in at league minimum when playing in the NHL.

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02-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Did you note that part of my sentence that said "for borderline players"? Demers, Braun, Burns, and the others aren't borderline players.
As bad as Clowe is, he isn't a borderline player so I don't get your point.

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And White was terrible just by being signed. He had just been bought out, he was horrendously slow, and he wasn't that good to begin with. Just signing White was a mistake. And signing him for anything over league minimum was a bigger mistake.
Hindsight is 20/20. No one thought that it was a terrible contract at the time. There were some doubts since he was bought out, but at 1 million, no one really cared. 1 million was the going-rate for a 6/7 defenseman that off-season. Not to mention it's not like cap-space was an issue last season.

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As for overpaying his own guys, I honestly think he'll see getting Clowe in the $4-5 mil range as a bargain. If DW perceived Clowe in anything remotely the same way the fans on this board do, he would have been gone last year. The fact that Clowe is still with the org and still getting consistent top-6 minutes means that DW still see's Clowe as a critical part of the Top-6. More so than Havlat. That right there should be all you need to see to understand how DW is valuing Clowe. Given that Clowe will be signing his first post-30 contract, I'm sure DW will want to pay him "fair value" in his view for his prime UFA years.
I'm not disagreeing. I could totally see him re-signing Clowe, but he'll have to do other moves along the way to fit him in. Personally, I'd prefer he use it to sign or trade for someone like Versteeg (4.4 million cap hit), and then fit the other players into the cap following that. Then again, I could also see Clowe going to whatever team pays him the most.


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02-20-2013, 05:58 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Stalberg is unlikely to be an NHLer, Tennyson is a defenseman, Kuraly and Hamilton are hopefully third liners. Nieto is the only other guy besides Hertl with top-6 potential, and Nieto is risky.
Woops I meant Oleksuk but I was just being somewhat hopeful.

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02-20-2013, 06:30 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Burish was just signed for $1.9 mil for 4 years. Handzus for $2.5 mil. Nic Wallin. Colin White. Sorry, does Doug Wilson have a history of not signing terrible deals for borderline players that I don't know about?
I think that speaks more to the cost of acquiring players through free agency than anything.

I don't like the Burish signing.

Honestly, I am not too bothered by the rest of those deals as SJ had the cap space, and they were short-term. I didn't like the Huskins one since they gave up draft picks, but all they gave up with Handzus and White is salary.

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02-20-2013, 06:39 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
As for overpaying his own guys, I honestly think he'll see getting Clowe in the $4-5 mil range as a bargain. If DW perceived Clowe in anything remotely the same way the fans on this board do, he would have been gone last year. The fact that Clowe is still with the org and still getting consistent top-6 minutes means that DW still see's Clowe as a critical part of the Top-6. More so than Havlat. That right there should be all you need to see to understand how DW is valuing Clowe. Given that Clowe will be signing his first post-30 contract, I'm sure DW will want to pay him "fair value" in his view for his prime UFA years.
do we really think Clowe is worth $4-5 mil per year??? I can't fathom that he is worth that. I'm thinking maybe $2.5-3.5. If he gets more than that, I will lose all confidence in DW.

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02-20-2013, 06:43 PM
  #737
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I think that speaks more to the cost of acquiring players through free agency than anything.

I don't like the Burish signing.

Honestly, I am not too bothered by the rest of those deals as SJ had the cap space, and they were short-term. I didn't like the Huskins one since they gave up draft picks, but all they gave up with Handzus and White is salary.
For the ones that were for salary available only, the hidden cost is NHL time taken that could have been given as experience to developing players. I didn't like White because he was making mistakes that were the same as rookies whether it was through inability or ignorance. Same for Handzus. The vets may admit to mistakes more readily but at least younger players have the chance to improve. The likelihood of improvement with significantly vet players is much, much less. There is only limited room for those whose only superior ability is that of teaching younger players.

It is even worse when vets are given time to "get their game back" when they never do. Getting their game back has a large implication of their current game being inferior to that of the younger player. Both old and young players are better off being under a "no excuses" system.

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02-20-2013, 07:03 PM
  #738
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I'd be alright with a Flyers style rebuild by trading Boyle, Thornton (favorite player on the Sharks) and Marleau. I doubt they will trade the latter two. But for ***** and giggles it is nice to dream of re-building on the fly, getting younger and faster, changing the culture, re-stocking the prospect cupboard and remaining a playoff contender and then moving to be a Stanley Cup contender depending on how the pieces develop.

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02-20-2013, 07:04 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
I think that speaks more to the cost of acquiring players through free agency than anything.
I don't want to start a long conversation (and I'm sure no one else wants it too), but haven't you been calling me crazy for years because I wanted to try and develop home-grown talent rather than sign UFA's or trade for expensive vets (who signed UFA contracts), because the home-grown talent in generally cheaper?

And now you admit that acquiring UFA talent is expensive. Color me shocked.

It's a comment said with a humor, so let's not start another argument on something we've been arguing about for at least 3 years now. I'm off to bed in order to avoid even the risk.

Have a good day.

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02-20-2013, 07:13 PM
  #740
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Woops I meant Oleksuk but I was just being somewhat hopeful.
Even less of a chance. Kid can't even et minutes on an AHL team starved for offensive talent.

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02-20-2013, 07:30 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I don't want to start a long conversation (and I'm sure no one else wants it too), but haven't you been calling me crazy for years because I wanted to try and develop home-grown talent rather than sign UFA's or trade for expensive vets (who signed UFA contracts), because the home-grown talent in generally cheaper?

And now you admit that acquiring UFA talent is expensive. Color me shocked.

It's a comment said with a humor, so let's not start another argument on something we've been arguing about for at least 3 years now. I'm off to bed in order to avoid even the risk.

Have a good day.
If you didn't want to start a conversation, why bring it up?

Trading is different than free agency. When you trade for players, you can trade for players on cheaper contracts, you can get players to take discounts, you buy time to see if the player fits into your team.

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02-20-2013, 07:43 PM
  #742
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And what does the org do if JT decides he doesn't want to re-sign (unlikely, but you have to factor it)? What if any of the current top-6 go down permanently due to injury (we've seen enough concussions lately to make this a reality).
I would call it a calculated risk. What if Couture gets into a car accident, what if Marleau quits to become a Jehovah's witness...a franchise cannot protect against all possibilities.

In regards to Thornton not signing here, I would assume that at that point, he'd be traded as a rental (obviously, Wilson would know he wasn't going to re-sign).

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Personally, I think DW is going to burn the organization down depth-wise before he is canned, and that ownership is more-or-less fine with this.
I think we perpetually disagree as to whether or not he is "burning down the depth". Results wise, he's had more-or-less ten years of SJ contending, which is your metric.

Generally, I think his strategy of gearing up for cup runs by trading assets that are unlikely to help us in the long-run is acceptable. Moreover, there is some evidence to suggest that as the core gets older, DW is modifying his strategy. The last major prospect/pick he traded or attempted to move was for Brent Burns and Niklas Hjalmarsson, both young and long-term assets.

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They probably assume that the fans will come back no matter what.
On a side note, this is probably not a terrible assumption to make. Bay Area fans are rich and loyal...

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02-20-2013, 08:48 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post

On a side note, this is probably not a terrible assumption to make. Bay Area fans are rich and loyal...
True, but I do worry about what will happen when the 49ers move to the South Bay... especially with the Niners trending up and the Sharks... well, we all know what's in store for the next few years at least.

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02-20-2013, 09:35 PM
  #744
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I'd be alright with a Flyers style rebuild by trading Boyle, Thornton (favorite player on the Sharks) and Marleau. I doubt they will trade the latter two. But for ***** and giggles it is nice to dream of re-building on the fly, getting younger and faster, changing the culture, re-stocking the prospect cupboard and remaining a playoff contender and then moving to be a Stanley Cup contender depending on how the pieces develop.
The difference there is that Carter and Richards were traded in their primes, when their value was at their highest. And those guys still are in their primes and could still fetch a lot in a trade. They're both young and signed long-term. Boyle, Thornton and Marleau are entering the twilights of their careers. They each have another 3-5 years left at least, but they aren't in their primes and thus don't have the same kind of value. I'm not convinced that we'd get much in return for any of them, especially when you consider that all three of them are UFAs after next season.

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02-20-2013, 09:35 PM
  #745
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True, but I do worry about what will happen when the 49ers move to the South Bay... especially with the Niners trending up and the Sharks... well, we all know what's in store for the next few years at least.
I think it's good to have one of the Bay Area's bigger draws in the South Bay. I believe it will make the Sharks seem less isolated from the Bay in terms of the Bay Area Major Pro Sports Scene.

I mean, it's naive IMHO to think that if the Sharks didn't always play in SF that there would be a difference in terms of support from the entire Bay Area.

Now with the Niners being in the South Bay soon, it will add "legitimacy" to the South Bay in terms of major sports (IMHO).

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02-20-2013, 09:38 PM
  #746
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The difference there is that Carter and Richards were traded in their primes, when their value was at their highest. And those guys still are in their primes and could still fetch a lot in a trade. They're both young and signed long-term. Boyle, Thornton and Marleau are entering the twilights of their careers. They each have another 3-5 years left at least, but they aren't in their primes and thus don't have the same kind of value. I'm not convinced that we'd get much in return for any of them, especially when you consider that all three of them are UFAs after next season.
Obviously we wouldn't return as much for each, but trading the three to the right teams could net quite the collective return and accomplish a lot of the same tasks.

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02-20-2013, 09:43 PM
  #747
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I think it's good to have one of the Bay Area's bigger draws in the South Bay. I believe it will make the Sharks seem less isolated from the Bay in terms of the Bay Area Major Pro Sports Scene.

I mean, it's naive IMHO to think that if the Sharks didn't always play in SF that there would be a difference in terms of support from the entire Bay Area.

Now with the Niners being in the South Bay soon, it will add "legitimacy" to the South Bay in terms of major sports (IMHO).
This is a great point. As well as the fact that being a fan and going to games for both teams is not hard to do considering football only plays once a week. So I would assume attendance would only be down on Sunday's, which it probably already is during football season anyways. As a huge fan of both sports I can atleast attest to my own excitement to be able to attend both sports events now, with how little time it takes me to get to either arena/stadium.

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02-20-2013, 09:48 PM
  #748
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I wouldn't necessarily discount the validity of DW being open to trading Boyle, or another star player. If that happens though it's obvious that the organization is starting over , having realized that the team just can't compete for a championship with its current core. Personally if the sharks keep playing .500 hockey then I would be on board. Focus on getting young players/ 1st rounders to build a new core with.

I mean if we totally tanked we could potentially be swapping Boyle or whoever for a one of Mackinnon Drouin Barkov or Jones. Any of which would be awesome obviously.

I can dream, can't I?

Either way, we'll just have to sit back and watch as the Sharks show us who they truly are, and whether or not they can actually compete for a cup.

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02-20-2013, 09:49 PM
  #749
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I mean, it's naive IMHO to think that if the Sharks didn't always play in SF that there would be a difference in terms of support from the entire Bay Area.
You mean SJ right? There probably would be a difference in attendance rates if the Sharks were in SF. There are a lot more fans in the South Bay (a reason why they moved), and it isn't reasonable for them to make the long commute for every home game.

It's different for the NFL since there is only one game a week, and that game is typically on a Sunday. I agree that it won't negatively affect the Sharks in any way though. One game a week and most of the time, the gametimes don't coincide. Sharks also don't typically play on Sundays.

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02-20-2013, 09:49 PM
  #750
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One thing is certain: DW is more likely to trade a star player (or even an untouchable) than fire TMac, especially during the season. You think DW loves Boyle? He loves TMac 1000 times more. Ugh.

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