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How is Havlat still on the team?

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Old
02-20-2013, 01:05 AM
  #76
Mafoofoo
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Originally Posted by Swedish GP View Post
I wasnt asking for respect, people that get all up tight and loose it over someones opinion are the ones that crave that here. Respect me or not I engaged you didnt I? Sorry if people cant handle average conversation without having to puff their typing chests over the internet. Ive been reading this forum for 4 years so I know by calling someone out thats been around was going to rile some feathers. Anyways arent you tired of it? Tired of the same results with these guys? Im over it, Ive been a huge supporter for years and thought these guys were gonna do it, I can no longer support Marleau, Havlat or Clowe simple as that and no I dont need a deep 2 paragraph breakdown of why. That doesnt mean I dont know hockey or know this team intimately.
Patty Marleau may suck but that's only because he's compared to Thornton. In reality he's actually a pretty good player lots of teams would love and we're lucky to have. Havlat is a pretty cool dude too. Clowe is dumb though.

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02-20-2013, 01:15 AM
  #77
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Eh? To my eye havlat is one of the faster players on the team.

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02-20-2013, 02:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Eh? To my eye havlat is one of the faster players on the team.
Wasn't Havlat's nickname mach9?

Skating speed is always a little tough to judge. For example, Couture has a certain quickness to his game that cover's up his average skating. Thornton's hockey sense and ability to burst cover his average skating. Forwards like Torrey Mitchell have great North-South speed, but poor hockey sense often nullify it.

For forwards, Marleau and Havlat have elite speed. Take "below average" and go one below, and you get Clowe.

Galiardi and Gomez are above average (Gomez has that same quickness to his game). Desjardins is trending to above average; Burish is trending to about where Desjardins is. But the fast guys all suffer from Torrey Mitchell syndrome. Handzus is in Clowe territory.

For defensemen, it is again interesting, since skating and skating speed require much more context. Just 6-8 years ago, every current Sharks defenseman would be considered a better than average skater, save for Murray, who'd be a step below average. The league as a whole is definitely trending towards a higher standard.

Boyle is elite. Burns is well above average and definitely elite for his size. Demers is above average. Murray is below average, though honestly not as bad as Clowe is (relative to his peers).

Just some thoughts....

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02-20-2013, 02:13 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Eh? To my eye havlat is one of the faster players on the team.
I think of Havlat as nifty and definitely with speed. I don't see Marleau as nifty at all but absolutely huge on straight ahead speed (same for Burns). Patty and Burns usually only do one change of direction in a single possession of the puck.

Interesting about the previous circles comment as it is the yin to JT's yang of strength/reach for creating time and space. It is a characteristic that almost all teams have in one player or another to a greater or lesser extent. IMO, Havlat is one of the better players in the league for creating time and space with niftiness. IMO, niftiness as creation is far harder to defend than stationary strength/reach creation because the angles change more rapidly for the defenders.

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02-20-2013, 02:21 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Wasn't Havlat's nickname mach9?
I'm not 100% certain but I believe it was Michalek.

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02-20-2013, 02:22 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by vilpertti View Post
I'm not 100% certain but I believe it was Michalek.
Could have been both, but Havlat's nickname was definitely Mach9 at one point....

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02-20-2013, 02:45 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Could have been both, but Havlat's nickname was definitely Mach9 at one point....
Had to google, we're both correct.

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02-20-2013, 11:39 AM
  #83
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I always thought Havlat was fast. However, he's a lot more shifty than he is fast. He skates more like Datsyuk than Grabner.

Of course he's not going to beat Torrey Mitchell in a sprint. But if both players had to weave around cones, Havlat would come out on top.

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02-20-2013, 12:01 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I think of Havlat as nifty and definitely with speed. I don't see Marleau as nifty at all but absolutely huge on straight ahead speed (same for Burns). Patty and Burns usually only do one change of direction in a single possession of the puck.

Interesting about the previous circles comment as it is the yin to JT's yang of strength/reach for creating time and space. It is a characteristic that almost all teams have in one player or another to a greater or lesser extent. IMO, Havlat is one of the better players in the league for creating time and space with niftiness. IMO, niftiness as creation is far harder to defend than stationary strength/reach creation because the angles change more rapidly for the defenders.
If by nifty you mean turns chances into turnovers, yes.

He has mishandled the puck on chances more than anyone on the team this season. he should have a lot more points than he does right now but has just been horrible with the puck so... how is that nifty. Again, I'm watching the Havlat of this season without any bias based on seasons past.

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02-20-2013, 12:21 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
If by nifty you mean turns chances into turnovers, yes.

He has mishandled the puck on chances more than anyone on the team this season. he should have a lot more points than he does right now but has just been horrible with the puck so... how is that nifty. Again, I'm watching the Havlat of this season without any bias based on seasons past.
I am not feeling well this year, but I have watched about 60% of games (I tend to fall asleep at odd points and probably have only seen 100% of 2 games). I haven't seen Havlat committing turnovers. I have seen extended dangles with the puck with no turnovers. Horrible boardwork.

I have seen unreal turnovers from Vlasic and several from JT in their own zone and they aren't from dangle. I'd really like to see stats on dzone turnovers.

And yes, nifty is dangle, edge control, etc. Multiple changes of direction with control of the puck. I characterize Boyle as nifty as well. I didn't characterize Heatley as nifty as he did exactly that which you are attributing to Havlat. If I am missing too much, you may be right.

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02-20-2013, 12:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I am not feeling well this year, but I have watched about 60% of games (I tend to fall asleep at odd points and probably have only seen 100% of 2 games). I haven't seen Havlat committing turnovers. I have seen extended dangles with the puck with no turnovers. Horrible boardwork.

I have seen unreal turnovers from Vlasic and several from JT in their own zone and they aren't from dangle. I'd really like to see stats on dzone turnovers.

And yes, nifty is dangle, edge control, etc. Multiple changes of direction with control of the puck. I characterize Boyle as nifty as well. I didn't characterize Heatley as nifty as he did exactly that which you are attributing to Havlat. If I am missing too much, you may be right.
I'm talking turnovers in the O zone. Booting chances left and right. I've watched all but 2 games and saw some live. He looks even worse live. He has made some dangles for sure but how many were successful? honestly? He usually dangles then loses it when I'm watching. Or passes it to nobody. Last game they had a great chance in front of the net and he missed his guy with an 8 foot pass by quite a bit. I haven't noticed him much in his own end.

Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well. I hope you feel better stat.

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02-20-2013, 12:44 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
If by nifty you mean turns chances into turnovers, yes.

He has mishandled the puck on chances more than anyone on the team this season. he should have a lot more points than he does right now but has just been horrible with the puck so... how is that nifty. Again, I'm watching the Havlat of this season without any bias based on seasons past.
If you play with 4th liners and you're the only guy with any offensive skill, you're gonna hold the puck longer than you should. Havlat has had to hold the puck and skate around with it for several seconds at a time with no one to pass it to. Or he has to force passes that he shouldn't.

When Havlat was playing with Clowe and Couture, he wasn't as bad with the turnovers.

Havlat is also not known to be a finisher, so it's not surprising that he's booted a few chances.

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02-20-2013, 01:27 PM
  #88
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While Havlat has finished and made plays below the rate I think he is capable of, he is playing at a level befitting exactly his spot in the lineup .... 2nd line winger. Not doing as well as any of the first liners, about 2nd best on his line behind Logan who himself could be playing on the first line. His creativity and dangling is probably tops on the team though.

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02-20-2013, 01:30 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Eh? To my eye havlat is one of the faster players on the team.
Compared to the other top 6? Sure. Compared to "fast" in the league? Not really.

All this talk about being fast...we need QUICK. We need guys that can get a step on the opposition right off the bat. Whats quick? Kennedy is quick. We need a legit top-6 version of him.

And Havlat may be "fast" (I guess), but he doesn't show it that often. Compared to our other top 6, sure. But thats not saying much. Wingles, Gomez, those guys are "faster" players than Havlat is.

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02-20-2013, 01:37 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
While Havlat has finished and made plays below the rate I think he is capable of, he is playing at a level befitting exactly his spot in the lineup .... 2nd line winger. Not doing as well as any of the first liners, about 2nd best on his line behind Logan who himself could be playing on the first line. His creativity and dangling is probably tops on the team though.
Clowe is dragging that entire line down but Havlat and Juicy are not getting it done on the boards at all.

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02-20-2013, 01:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Rapid eye movemenT View Post
Compared to the other top 6? Sure. Compared to "fast" in the league? Not really.
You quote something then completely respond to something it doesn't say.

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02-20-2013, 01:41 PM
  #92
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Clowe takes the puck on the side wall and moves along the boards until he's behind the net, a defenceman challenges him on the boards, he loses the puck, repeat.

As soon as Clowe realizes he's not Thronton, maybe he will stop sucking.

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02-20-2013, 01:51 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by crunchyblack View Post
Clowe takes the puck on the side wall and moves along the boards until he's behind the net, a defenceman challenges him on the boards, he loses the puck, repeat.

As soon as Clowe realizes he's not Thronton, maybe he will stop sucking.
Clowe is easily the most frustrating player to watch on this team right now... Le sigh

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02-20-2013, 04:12 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Eh? To my eye havlat is one of the faster players on the team.
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Originally Posted by The Great 88 View Post
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Originally Posted by vilpertti View Post
Yes. Because Marleau is faster, Havlat is not fast at all.
Funny that we talked about this and now they are doing races in practice. I'd love to know where everyone finished and by how much.

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02-20-2013, 04:54 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Funny that we talked about this and now they are doing races in practice. I'd love to know where everyone finished and by how much.
Same here. I'd also like to know how they did it. Straight ahead or once around the rink or doing a weave through cones. With and without puck for all of the aforementioned.

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02-20-2013, 05:49 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
You quote something then completely respond to something it doesn't say.
"Compared to the other top 6? Sure."

I believe that was my response. My further elaboration was to further the argument that the team isn't fast, relatively speaking, not to argue your point.

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02-20-2013, 06:12 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Same here. I'd also like to know how they did it. Straight ahead or once around the rink or doing a weave through cones. With and without puck for all of the aforementioned.
Seriously, I have so many questions! The public demands answers!

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02-20-2013, 09:41 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Could have been both, but Havlat's nickname was definitely Mach9 at one point....
< Mach 9 for sure. Sad to hear he' in a funk with the rest of the team. What would it take for Ottawa to acquire him?

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02-20-2013, 09:46 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
< Mach 9 for sure. Sad to hear he' in a funk with the rest of the team. What would it take for Ottawa to acquire him?
Young top 6 winger or with top 6 potential, I think.

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02-20-2013, 09:47 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
< Mach 9 for sure. Sad to hear he' in a funk with the rest of the team. What would it take for Ottawa to acquire him?
Michalek+. Just to have perfect symmetry.

But seriously, it's only a few particular posters complaining about Havlat. I have no problem with him.

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