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Couturier

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Old
02-20-2013, 09:33 PM
  #51
feedingschennzy
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Subban and Bogosian are worth more than Couturier IMO.
Bogo yes but i never truly see subban becoming an elite #1. He'll be a very solid one but not ever a Norris candidate type

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02-20-2013, 09:35 PM
  #52
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Gardiner and Bozak/Kulemin is fair and addresses needs. The Flyers would have to send a scrub d-man (Gervais/Foster/Lilja) in return.

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02-20-2013, 09:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by cdugan View Post
Bogo yes but i never truly see subban becoming an elite #1. He'll be a very solid one but not ever a Norris candidate type
Unless you imagine Couturier as an Art Ross winning elite 1LC, I don't see how Subban has to be am elite Norris candidate D to be worth more than him.

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02-20-2013, 09:39 PM
  #54
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Flyers would have to be idiots to trade him now.

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Old
02-20-2013, 09:41 PM
  #55
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Couturier's value should go up solely based on his ability to get inside Malkin's head. It's astounding.

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02-20-2013, 09:41 PM
  #56
PayItForward
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Originally Posted by cdugan View Post
Bogo yes but i never truly see subban becoming an elite #1. He'll be a very solid one but not ever a Norris candidate type
There are only a handful of d-men in the NHL that actually are Norris candidates and those players aren't going to be traded.


Last edited by PayItForward: 02-20-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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Old
02-20-2013, 09:51 PM
  #57
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Couturier's value is very interesting. Obviously, he's got tons of potential. He's a great defensive player. He's only 20 years old. However, for a while he's been over-valued simply on his making the NHL and becoming an impact player so quickly. Dougie Hamilton is catching up to him, as is Jonas Brodin, as is Jonathan Huberdeau.

I think Couturier is a potential #1C. But at the same time, I haven't seen all that much offensively from him. He's still young and still has tons of time, but I want to see more offensive ability from him before he's in the same realm value-wise as a player like PK Subban.

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02-20-2013, 10:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by cdugan View Post
Names in play at near or exactly a 1-1 would be

Myers
Subban
Reilly
Bogosian
Kulikov
Hedman
Shattenkirk
Fowler
Yandle
Take Subban, Shattenkirk, Bogosian and Hedman off that list. Those dmen >>> Couturier.

The only ones that are close in value are:

Fowler or Kulikov for Couturier.

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Old
02-20-2013, 10:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by cdugan View Post
Bogo yes but i never truly see subban becoming an elite #1. He'll be a very solid one but not ever a Norris candidate type
and most dont see Couturier becoming a #1 center...

Couturier's value is high on hf.. prob much higher then it should be.. I remember some phi that said they wont add him in a trade for Weber... His value on the site has droped this season I guess.. but I do know if he was on Van, Mon, or Tor everyone would be crying bust. he has shown the Def side (well last year) but has yet to show the off side that will make him worth allot of the players listed here..

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02-20-2013, 10:20 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
How is Rielly worth more than Bogosian? Rielly and Myers are the only ones very roughly en par with Couturier on that list. Everyone else is worth more.
What kind of surgury did Bogosian have on his wrist?

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02-20-2013, 10:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I think Couturier is a potential #1C. But at the same time, I haven't seen all that much offensively from him. He's still young and still has tons of time, but I want to see more offensive ability from him before he's in the same realm value-wise as a player like PK Subban.
I expect Couturier to be similar to Hanzal. Top out at 40-50 points, while being tremendously valuable defensively. Players of that ilk don't need to put up gaudy numbers to be tremendously valuable. For the most part, most franchises also aren't interested in trading blue chip Dmen for such a player. They usually want scoring more than anything else. I think Couturier is valuable, but by himself he is not enough to fish a legit younger 1/2 type from teams looking to move them.

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:00 PM
  #62
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coots + simmer + mez/gus + 1st for Piet


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02-20-2013, 11:01 PM
  #63
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or coots + simmer + 2nd for OEL

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02-20-2013, 11:33 PM
  #64
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Flyers do neither of those for Pietrangelo or OEL.

Also, 50 point potential is his floor, not his ceiling. It'll be interesting to see what happens to him behind Giroux and Schenn.

That said, you saw a lot of his offensive ability tonight; lots of big body work, low on the boards, puck-handling in tight spaces, making clean passes.

Couturier's offense is going to be just fine. People who can't see flashes haven't been watching. Where there's smoke there's fire, especially if there was burning down entire forests in juniors.

The arguments against Couts' offense remind of the ..."Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 50 point winger with 40 assists." ...to "Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 65 point forward with 40 assists." ...to "Oh Giroux will never be a consistent point-per-game player." ...to "Oh, ****."

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02-20-2013, 11:47 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
I expect Couturier to be similar to Hanzal. Top out at 40-50 points, while being tremendously valuable defensively. Players of that ilk don't need to put up gaudy numbers to be tremendously valuable. For the most part, most franchises also aren't interested in trading blue chip Dmen for such a player. They usually want scoring more than anything else. I think Couturier is valuable, but by himself he is not enough to fish a legit younger 1/2 type from teams looking to move them.
good comparison. Couts has better hands imo and great vision.

Hanzal might score better on a more offensive club too, he's underrated imo.

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02-20-2013, 11:48 PM
  #66
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Flyers do neither of those for Pietrangelo or OEL.

Also, 50 point potential is his floor, not his ceiling. It'll be interesting to see what happens to him behind Giroux and Schenn.

That said, you saw a lot of his offensive ability tonight; lots of big body work, low on the boards, puck-handling in tight spaces, making clean passes.

Couturier's offense is going to be just fine. People who can't see flashes haven't been watching. Where there's smoke there's fire, especially if there was burning down entire forests in juniors.

The arguments against Couts' offense remind of the ..."Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 50 point winger with 40 assists." ...to "Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 65 point forward with 40 assists." ...to "Oh Giroux will never be a consistent point-per-game player." ...to "Oh, ****."
Calm down. I'm not saying the potential's not there. I'm just saying it isn't elite. There's a difference. No need to get so defensive.

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02-20-2013, 11:54 PM
  #67
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Gio or Jbo your choice.

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:56 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

Also, 50 point potential is his floor, not his ceiling.
Call it a floor when he actually sniffs 50 points.

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Old
02-20-2013, 11:56 PM
  #69
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You forgot Voynov. He is right there with those guys.
No he didn't...

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02-20-2013, 11:58 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Flyers do neither of those for Pietrangelo or OEL.

Also, 50 point potential is his floor, not his ceiling. It'll be interesting to see what happens to him behind Giroux and Schenn.

That said, you saw a lot of his offensive ability tonight; lots of big body work, low on the boards, puck-handling in tight spaces, making clean passes.

Couturier's offense is going to be just fine. People who can't see flashes haven't been watching. Where there's smoke there's fire, especially if there was burning down entire forests in juniors.

The arguments against Couts' offense remind of the ..."Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 50 point winger with 40 assists." ...to "Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 65 point forward with 40 assists." ...to "Oh Giroux will never be a consistent point-per-game player." ...to "Oh, ****."
Plenty of players put up good junior numbers. Great junior numbers do not automatically equal elite offensive production like people seem to think.

I've watched nearly every game Couturier has played in the NHL and I don't see this elite offensive upside that others do. But then again, everyone thinks their young players are going to wind up PPG players.

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02-20-2013, 11:59 PM
  #71
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Not particularly, but I can think of another d-man on your team that does
You must mean Ryan Whitney.

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02-21-2013, 12:01 AM
  #72
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Giroux
Couturier

is going to be a solid 1-2 punch down the middle for the Flyers for a long time.


I wonder if florida would have any interest in moving B.Campbell? He comes with a high salary but he's worth it IMO.

Campbell + 3rd 2013 for 1st 2013, Laughton, manning

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02-21-2013, 12:07 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Plenty of players put up good junior numbers. Great junior numbers do not automatically equal elite offensive production like people seem to think.

I've watched nearly every game Couturier has played in the NHL and I don't see this elite offensive upside that others do. But then again, everyone thinks their young players are going to wind up PPG players.
He's not Giroux elite in terms of offensive upside, but he plays a lot the way Mike Richards did in the offensive zone plus some size to boot. His work down low is physical and skilled. If he can move around in tight spaces and make those passes, offense will come.

If you don't think so, that's on you.

The only real question is playing time and opportunity.

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02-21-2013, 12:09 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
I expect Couturier to be similar to Hanzal. Top out at 40-50 points, while being tremendously valuable defensively. Players of that ilk don't need to put up gaudy numbers to be tremendously valuable. For the most part, most franchises also aren't interested in trading blue chip Dmen for such a player. They usually want scoring more than anything else. I think Couturier is valuable, but by himself he is not enough to fish a legit younger 1/2 type from teams looking to move them.
You're underrating his offensive potential. He put up almost 30 while playing some of the toughest minutes in the NHL (i.e. hard competition and extremely low offensive zone starts), **** linemates, and almost zero PP time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Plenty of players put up good junior numbers. Great junior numbers do not automatically equal elite offensive production like people seem to think.

I've watched nearly every game Couturier has played in the NHL and I don't see this elite offensive upside that others do. But then again, everyone thinks their young players are going to wind up PPG players.
No, but it's easier to project a player having good offensive output if the put up big numbers in junior (which Couturier did).




==========



I think he'll be a 60-70 pt Selke caliber forward.

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Old
02-21-2013, 12:18 AM
  #75
TheJuxtaposer
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
He's not Giroux elite in terms of offensive upside, but he plays a lot the way Mike Richards did in the offensive zone plus some size to boot. His work down low is physical and skilled. If he can move around in tight spaces and make those passes, offense will come.

If you don't think so, that's on you.

The only real question is playing time and opportunity.
He's getting more even strength ice time as Voracek, and about the same as Simmonds and B. Schenn. I understand that he's getting stupid hard defensive minutes and not getting great linemates, but at the same time he's had one of Read or Voracek on his wing 90% of the time, both of whom are having great offensive seasons so far. Couturier only has 3 points at even strength in 15 games. He's got a league average on-ice shooting percentage and not a horridly low personal shooting percentage. And it's not as though he isn't getting time on the PP.

I just don't see it, when I watch him play in the offensive zone. I would love to be proven wrong, I think Couturier's done a really great job as a young player playing in a defensive role for an offensively-oriented team and system. But I don't see lots of offensive upside. 60 points is absolutely a distinct possibility. But I don't see 80, like several people seem to think.

Brandon Sutter, for example, plays just as hard minutes as Couturier does, and has since he was Couturier's age while putting up decent 3rd line numbers. No one expects 70 points out of him, right?

Also, in regards to the OEL/Pietrangelo that you turned down, neither of those teams think twice before turning them down.

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