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If You Had To Trade One Who Would It Be, Hemsky or Gagner?

View Poll Results: If You Had To Trade One Who Would It Be, Hemsky or Gagner?
Hemsky 169 75.45%
Gagner 30 13.39%
Flip A Coin 25 11.16%
Voters: 224. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #51
Baby Nilsson
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Hemsky, then sign him as a ufa down the road as a hometown/stanley cup favorite discount

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02-20-2013, 06:49 PM
  #52
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Hemsky. He's got fantastic skills, but I've never seen so many players have trouble playing with one player. It's like no one outside of Smyth five years ago has had any chemistry with him.

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Old
02-20-2013, 09:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
Hemsky. He's got fantastic skills, but I've never seen so many players have trouble playing with one player. It's like no one outside of Smyth five years ago has had any chemistry with him.
That's my feeling too. Hemsky is always a bit of a one man show - and I'm not saying that to put him down because he's terrific when he's hitting his notes.

I also agree with the poster above who said "wingers we have, centers not so much".
Even if we get a good center in a trade this team still has terrible depth at that position.

My preference of course would be to trade neither. We still have a year to evaluate the team.
If Tamby panics now after four years in the sewer and gets ripped off in a deal for Hemsky or Gagner I am gonna flip out.

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Old
02-20-2013, 09:44 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
If we're not in a playoff spot and it looks iffy, you trade Hemsky at the deadline or earlier this year.

Wait and see what the draft position is if they don't make the playoffs and who they end up picking.

If it's a winger like Nicushkin, you just keep Gagner IMO.

If Gagner is asking for too much money or you land a Mackinnon (gulp) or Barkov, you probably lean towards dealing him but not until the summer.
If they end up in the lottery and draft one of the better forwards, I could see them both get traded (for a big 2nd line forward and a D-man).

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Old
02-20-2013, 10:00 PM
  #55
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Gagner

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02-20-2013, 11:30 PM
  #56
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Hemsky
- He might have people convinced that his shoulders are completely healed up... finally.
- He's got the bigger cap hit.
- He's older.
- We've got an overabundance of wingers at the moment
- We can ill afford to let go of Gagner and thin out our depth at center.

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02-20-2013, 11:50 PM
  #57
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Only because we have lots of wingers.

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Old
02-21-2013, 12:48 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Why don't you do a "hypothetical" for Hall and Eberle? What are Gagner and Hemsky, a couple of old Chrsitmas presents that you've grown tired of playing with?

No matter how you try to sell this thread, it's pretty obvious why it was made BBO.

You're better than that, no?

Because both were signed to lengthy deals just a short while ago and unless they have flat out stopped giving a damn the management has already spoken to how they view these players in terms of their importance to the team. Gagner signed for consecutive 1 year deals and Hemsky signing for 2 years at least at the time of the contracts tells me that management was/is less certain of their spots here longer term.

It is still my belief that one of these players will be moved at some point in the next year or so and with both playing some of their best offensive hockey in recent years their values may well be at their highest this season or next.

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Originally Posted by Mowzie View Post
I'd like to see what we could swing via UFA first.

But if it's either Gagner or Hemsky, and the reason we're making a deal is to bring some size/skill, I'd trade Gagner.
That might be management's ideology as well, let both finish the year here and then see what we can do in the offseason.

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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
That's my feeling too. Hemsky is always a bit of a one man show - and I'm not saying that to put him down because he's terrific when he's hitting his notes.

I also agree with the poster above who said "wingers we have, centers not so much".
Even if we get a good center in a trade this team still has terrible depth at that position.

My preference of course would be to trade neither. We still have a year to evaluate the team.
If Tamby panics now after four years in the sewer and gets ripped off in a deal for Hemsky or Gagner I am gonna flip out.
We simply cannot trade either for dog food, IMO the two of them have the greatest trade value on our team outside of the 3 1st overall picks, Eberle, and Schultz. If we trade either we need to make the most of the return and it needs to be for a player that will be a long term fixture here. .

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Old
02-21-2013, 01:53 AM
  #59
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We know Hemmers top end and so does the NHL he is a bluechip especially since he has been healthy and showcased on the 2nd line to prove it.

Gagner is still evolving incredible as it is to believe at the NHL level, he definately has appeal at his age with 5yrs of NHL experience under his belt, the 8pt night with the PPG pace this year really made him an enigma, we truly need to see what he can do when his linemates learn a bit more, he would likely now step onto a team with very experienced forwards and light it up as he is now at a PPG which is where he may stay now if the kids develop fast and steady.

I trade Hemmer because we can find another speedster but I dont think we are finding a player in Sams situation anytime soon. Besides speedsters are one dimensional and better suited to offensive systems not adjusted hybrids like ours.

Sam thinks the game the way an adjusted hybrid requires and is able to provide a two dimensional style to support that.

I dont let Hemmer go cheaply though because any championship team can use a gamebreaker. But truly Hemmer is like Klima was, he is a specific tool and we need to see that for what it is to best utilise him, in the past he has been overutilised to cover up weaknesses on the roster in other spots. At this point he is more of a scalpel to us which is why he needs to be on the 3rd line scoring those type of goals on minimal possesions like he can do.

I say you pay more any way you can and try to cut a deal with the devil and keep them both.

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:10 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadMedicine View Post
We know Hemmers top end and so does the NHL he is a bluechip especially since he has been healthy and showcased on the 2nd line to prove it.

Gagner is still evolving incredible as it is to believe at the NHL level, he definately has appeal at his age with 5yrs of NHL experience under his belt, the 8pt night with the PPG pace this year really made him an enigma, we truly need to see what he can do when his linemates learn a bit more, he would likely now step onto a team with very experienced forwards and light it up as he is now at a PPG which is where he may stay now if the kids develop fast and steady.

I trade Hemmer because we can find another speedster but I dont think we are finding a player in Sams situation anytime soon. Besides speedsters are one dimensional and better suited to offensive systems not adjusted hybrids like ours.

Sam thinks the game the way an adjusted hybrid requires and is able to provide a two dimensional style to support that.

I dont let Hemmer go cheaply though because any championship team can use a gamebreaker. But truly Hemmer is like Klima was, he is a specific tool and we need to see that for what it is to best utilise him, in the past he has been overutilised to cover up weaknesses on the roster in other spots. At this point he is more of a scalpel to us which is why he needs to be on the 3rd line scoring those type of goals on minimal possesions like he can do.

I say you pay more any way you can and try to cut a deal with the devil and keep them both.
Hemsky is a rare bird in that he can create offense on virtually any line, if I wasn't afraid of him pouting I wouldn't mind seeing him on the 3rd line opposite of Paajarvi or Smyth.

A team like LA could REALLY use some of Hemsky's gamebreaking ability, hell most teams could truth be told. I agree that we know what we have with Hemsky when he's healthy, but do you see Gagner being strong enough in all 3 zones to warrant us locking him up long term for say Hemsky money?

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:08 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Hemsky is a rare bird in that he can create offense on virtually any line, if I wasn't afraid of him pouting I wouldn't mind seeing him on the 3rd line opposite of Paajarvi or Smyth.

A team like LA could REALLY use some of Hemsky's gamebreaking ability, hell most teams could truth be told. I agree that we know what we have with Hemsky when he's healthy, but do you see Gagner being strong enough in all 3 zones to warrant us locking him up long term for say Hemsky money?
Yea right first we give them Stoll and a bunch of other guys and now they want Sam who is the system master, forget about it.

Without solid system data and future system plans I cannot properly valuate either player enought to decide this.

It is my opinion that the Oilers are missing the boat in terms of Intuative Analysis and considerations at an organisational level, and this means thay are lost in space systemwise they cant even define the one they use now.

The Oilers have used the same system for at least 15 yrs, an adjusted hybrid, i dont know what they have called it or what the NHL calls it, but the NHS calls it an adjusted hybrid. It is a system that uses a set defensive scheme combined with a creative o-zone entry tactic, this is all based on a fastbreak or a variation of the fast break play initiated by the defense to expedite passage through the neutral zone. In effect it is designed to beat the old trap system.

Right now our coaches are using a specific set of system dynamics that create uber-offense within the adjusted hybrid as their performance bar of excellence, this is not realistic. We can initiate the offense and create mega shots but we wont be scoring a mega amount of goals MORE than the opponent because to get these shot results we need to adjust our defensive zone exits and this compromises the adjusted hybrids defensive base and the system begins to collapse, if we fall behind and try to tighten the defense up we collapse faster. we are trying to create this level of offense without compromising the defensive scheme and it isnt working and never will. Rakph is simply learning what Mac-Y already knows very well, the limitations of his system, my advice is to ask Mac-T to replay his run to the finals and then replay LAs cup win and then post here and tell me Badmedicine what looks the same in those two pictures, because LA executed the adjusted hybrid perfectly last year based on the NHS data that is available and they attained results very much like mac-T did when he has the system wide open.

If we use the system we are using now I have to keep Hemmer because sooner or later Ralph willl break or go bald and we will go back to the exact system execution we have used for 15 yrs, its just that we will be utilising an average system with elite players, ha ha ha. Then we will need Hemmer badly. Ifthis team went to a pure NHS system and abandoned the adjusted hybrid then Gagner would win the toss but i would need both of them and be wiling to pay to get them.

I believe Sam Gagner has the potential to lead a team to the Stanley Cup if given the opportunity. I know Hemmer can pave the way if he can get close enough.

I dont know how these guys valuate players other than as per specific system needs and requirements and because no one really discusses system dynamics specificly we
are in the absolute dark. This is why pro teams wont openly discuss systems because systems are like star witnesses in a mob trial baby they know everything, so they are kept under the tightest security because if anyone knows the system then they know if you have been running it effectively or running it into the ground. If you tread in that area it is tough sledding man, people arent used to discussing dynamic actions and reactions like the ones you need to deal with when you are a coach of any type of team. Most people are or were players and we all know all players dont make decent coaches. So its a tough area to delve into. watch Ralphs practice video from today and count how many times he refers to the system, then go over all his interviews and count how many times he is specific when he does use the word system, ha ha ha, its like the Caramilk secret, or Area 51, ha ha ha.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:46 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Because both were signed to lengthy deals just a short while ago and unless they have flat out stopped giving a damn the management has already spoken to how they view these players in terms of their importance to the team. Gagner signed for consecutive 1 year deals and Hemsky signing for 2 years at least at the time of the contracts tells me that management was/is less certain of their spots here longer term.

It is still my belief that one of these players will be moved at some point in the next year or so and with both playing some of their best offensive hockey in recent years their values may well be at their highest this season or next.
Thanks for your measured response to my grumpy post BBO. I'm getting sick of all the trade talk after a loss, so it culminated with me taking it out on you.

Sorry about that.

If there is any possible way we could keep both of these guys, it would make me happy. I want to see both of these players who we drafted, and have spent the better part of their careers on a crappy club, lift a cup in Oiler colors.

If we HAVE to pick, I'd agree with moving Hemsky because of what others have mentioned, we have enough wingers and are very shallow at center depth. If and when either player is moved, it better be for a game breaker.

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02-21-2013, 11:45 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BadMedicine View Post
Yea right first we give them Stoll and a bunch of other guys and now they want Sam who is the system master, forget about it.

Without solid system data and future system plans I cannot properly valuate either player enought to decide this.

It is my opinion that the Oilers are missing the boat in terms of Intuative Analysis and considerations at an organisational level, and this means thay are lost in space systemwise they cant even define the one they use now.

The Oilers have used the same system for at least 15 yrs, an adjusted hybrid, i dont know what they have called it or what the NHL calls it, but the NHS calls it an adjusted hybrid. It is a system that uses a set defensive scheme combined with a creative o-zone entry tactic, this is all based on a fastbreak or a variation of the fast break play initiated by the defense to expedite passage through the neutral zone. In effect it is designed to beat the old trap system.

Right now our coaches are using a specific set of system dynamics that create uber-offense within the adjusted hybrid as their performance bar of excellence, this is not realistic. We can initiate the offense and create mega shots but we wont be scoring a mega amount of goals MORE than the opponent because to get these shot results we need to adjust our defensive zone exits and this compromises the adjusted hybrids defensive base and the system begins to collapse, if we fall behind and try to tighten the defense up we collapse faster. we are trying to create this level of offense without compromising the defensive scheme and it isnt working and never will. Rakph is simply learning what Mac-Y already knows very well, the limitations of his system, my advice is to ask Mac-T to replay his run to the finals and then replay LAs cup win and then post here and tell me Badmedicine what looks the same in those two pictures, because LA executed the adjusted hybrid perfectly last year based on the NHS data that is available and they attained results very much like mac-T did when he has the system wide open.

If we use the system we are using now I have to keep Hemmer because sooner or later Ralph willl break or go bald and we will go back to the exact system execution we have used for 15 yrs, its just that we will be utilising an average system with elite players, ha ha ha. Then we will need Hemmer badly. Ifthis team went to a pure NHS system and abandoned the adjusted hybrid then Gagner would win the toss but i would need both of them and be wiling to pay to get them.

I believe Sam Gagner has the potential to lead a team to the Stanley Cup if given the opportunity. I know Hemmer can pave the way if he can get close enough.

I dont know how these guys valuate players other than as per specific system needs and requirements and because no one really discusses system dynamics specificly we
are in the absolute dark. This is why pro teams wont openly discuss systems because systems are like star witnesses in a mob trial baby they know everything, so they are kept under the tightest security because if anyone knows the system then they know if you have been running it effectively or running it into the ground. If you tread in that area it is tough sledding man, people arent used to discussing dynamic actions and reactions like the ones you need to deal with when you are a coach of any type of team. Most people are or were players and we all know all players dont make decent coaches. So its a tough area to delve into. watch Ralphs practice video from today and count how many times he refers to the system, then go over all his interviews and count how many times he is specific when he does use the word system, ha ha ha, its like the Caramilk secret, or Area 51, ha ha ha.
So based on your beliefs you feel that even though MacT left, the system that we've played since then is exactly the same? Did you watch enough OKC games this season to know if there was much of a difference between Nelson's system and Krueger's/MacT's? Gagner or Hemsky would be great on LA because they need offsense badly and both of our guys have it in them to produce. However unlike us they are a pretty complete team with the exception of having enough gamebreakers up front and injuries to their defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Thanks for your measured response to my grumpy post BBO. I'm getting sick of all the trade talk after a loss, so it culminated with me taking it out on you.

Sorry about that.

If there is any possible way we could keep both of these guys, it would make me happy. I want to see both of these players who we drafted, and have spent the better part of their careers on a crappy club, lift a cup in Oiler colors.

If we HAVE to pick, I'd agree with moving Hemsky because of what others have mentioned, we have enough wingers and are very shallow at center depth. If and when either player is moved, it better be for a game breaker.
The way that I see it is that if we keep both then we need an elite 3C to make this thing work. ie.

Kid line
Nail-Gagner-Hemsky
Paajarvi-ROR/Hanzal/etc.-Hartikainen
Eager-Belanger/Horcoff-Jones

We need someone that's strong on draws who can also give us top end defense and secondary offense. I'm warming up more and more to the idea of offersheeting ROR TBH. Yes we could win the draft lottery, however at what point will said player be as valuable to us as ROR would be? Especially if Gagner is in the teams future plans? If Gagner isn't then I wouldn't make the OS because it sounds like a bunch of solid centers are available this year. So let me ask you and others browsing this topic this, would you rather keep Gagner and Hemsky, offersheet ROR and make a play for JM Liles from TO or better yet Gardiner if for some reason they want to move him to expedite the rebuild. Or would you rather stand pat and see what the draft holds before making any decisions on Gagner or Hemsky? Also what is the max salary and term that you offer Gagner if he's looking for his big payday because of his productive season to this point? Same for Hemsky when his contract runs out.

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Old
02-21-2013, 12:07 PM
  #64
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Eberle. I think he is about on par with Gagner, but I would prefer to keep the centre. And he probably fetches you more.

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02-21-2013, 12:32 PM
  #65
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I wouldn't trade either.

The big power forward is a myth. I can't think of a single player who plays in a top 6 role that actually plays big.

Nuge seems to manhandle 6'4'' D all the time due to his powerful legs and excellent stick work.

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02-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #66
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Gagner and it's no question...well, the only question is his age.

But Hemsky dominates the play when he's out there, and has his whole career. Gagner's improving mightily, but if we could get a centre with the same or more size as Gagner and a career statline similar, plus another piece, I'd pull the trigger.

Wouldn't even consider it with Hemsky unless it was a big overpayment coming back. He's too vital.

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02-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Gagner and it's no question...well, the only question is his age.

But Hemsky dominates the play when he's out there, and has his whole career. Gagner's improving mightily, but if we could get a centre with the same or more size as Gagner and a career statline similar, plus another piece, I'd pull the trigger.

Wouldn't even consider it with Hemsky unless it was a big overpayment coming back. He's too vital.
This isn't the case.

One can only look at recent years as I don't know we have the player that put up that kind of pts and play in 05-06.

Oddly enough Gagner as a mere kid is in a deadheat in pts attained with Hemsky over the span of Gagners tenure.

What you get with Hemsky is a guy either out of the lineup, playing hurt, or playing in a funk. I'm glad Hemsky has stepped up right now but considering Gagner has given us the same contribution Hemsky has while still being in his formative years its a no brainer who ends up being the much more productive player. Gagner will smash any career pt totals Hemsky has attained. Would not surprise me if Gagner flirts with a 1000pt career....

Plus Gagner is a Center and more valuable just on that basis.


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02-21-2013, 03:26 PM
  #68
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I wouldn't trade either.

The big power forward is a myth. I can't think of a single player who plays in a top 6 role that actually plays big.

Nuge seems to manhandle 6'4'' D all the time due to his powerful legs and excellent stick work.
Rick Nash?

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02-21-2013, 03:42 PM
  #69
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so.. the guy leading the team in points vs the guy leading the team in goals...

I am sure we have many other useless players that should be traded before these 2.

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02-21-2013, 04:12 PM
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[QUOTE=Bryanbryoil;60161587]So based on your beliefs you feel that even though MacT left, the system that we've played since then is exactly the same? Did you watch enough OKC games this season to know if there was much of a difference between Nelson's system and Krueger's/MacT's? Gagner or Hemsky would be great on LA because they need offsense badly and both of our guys have it in them to produce. However unlike us they are a pretty complete team with the exception of having enough gamebreakers up front and injuries to their defense.

We have used an adjusted hybrid for many years, the system was pretty much invented here in Edmonton, it used to be the Top Secret Oilers super weapon, now it is mainstream. It has always represented Edmontons best attempt to reproduce the offensive potential of the Dynasty team, or rather someones vision of that Dynasty dynamic. It is really a traditional one dimensional system{uses set plays all over} evolved into a 2 dimensional representation{uses set plays on defense and creative non-set transitional plays on offense} of a 3 dimensional system{uses no set plays on either offense or defense} . Hope I didnt lose anyone there.

Our system of today is really just an old traditional defensive system that has been evolved to the point that set plays are not used on offense, only defense, that is the evolution we see first, the offense was jacked up to try to emulate the Dynasty team while they tried to keep the defense tight, and it never really worked, ever. The problem was that the Oilers managment has for decades believed that they were smart enough to figure out how the Dynsatys 3 dimensional system was executed,but the truth is it was impossible for them to do because they didnt have Waynes Brains to work with. Mac-T who was part of those great teams did his epic work of replicating the dynamics as best he could by taking a 1 dimensional traditional defensive system and evolving it into a 2 dimensional adjusted hybrid that uses transitional creative offense and came as close as anyone ever has to duplicating that 3D majic, until I ambled along and developed the NewAge Hockey System which is a 100% 3D system. The NHS teaches players to think in 3D perspective through the implementation of Intuative Dynamic Analysis. This is how Wayne G. and Mark M. thought the game . The Dynasty system left with Waynes Brains and Messier did his best imitation of Waynes 3D vision and then later mac-T did his best imitaton Waynes 3D vision. Even Gretzky tried to coach his vision into a team unsucessfully, although today they play more like he thinks than when he was working with them believe it or not their entire system is another adjusted hybrid like ours and LAs that a few of Waynes tricks have been added , ones I see immediatly.

The adjusted hybrid is a 2 dimensional system and will never be able to provide consistant enough offensive results without imploding defensively to anywhere near match the Dynastys offense, Mac-T settled for tight defense with the ability to open the floodgates and go hell bent for leather come playoff time using a fastbreak defensive zone exit and freeflow o-zone transitions. This means initiating a very complicated and reactive system with your roster and is double or triple the work of a strictly traditional system.

Excaliber was never pulled from the stone in Edmonton, and Waynes 3D vision has never been replicated accurately until the NewAge Hockey System was developed. We have been watching 2D representations of the explosive dominating offense we all dream of from the Dynasty days via the adjusted hybrid. We have experienced the extremes of what the adjusted-hybrid system can do for many many years and must see by now it is a system designed to produce competative results not dominant ones. We need to try a 3D based system ASAP before we lose this core group to the struggles of the adusted hybrid which has been in a battle to the death with Oilers managment for 15 yrs.

I didnt see enough to really be accurate systewise however I do know who thrived in Nelsons system and who evolved in Nelsons system and those are very different things, This years NHL results already show you who is who, as the year progresses this may change but the evidence is already entered into the record. based on this alone I believe the system Nelson is utilising is not close enough to what we need from OKC, no offense to Nelson he is a great coach, but the evolution is what we wanted and the evolution i saw wasnt catalysed by the system Nelson is using it was catalysed by specific individuals from outside of the system and then implemented in OKC and the effects have translated smoothly to the NHL by those players. I want to name players but wont go there. Lets just put it this way, were the results you have witnessed from the kids in OKC exactly what you expected at the NHL level this year? Have you been surprised at the evolution of specific players and the de-volution of others? There you go you already have your names and answers, now you just need to determine causality, or why it turned out this way .

Gamebreaking plays catalysed from outside the system are a part of the adjusted hybrids offense when it is in a system checkmate. This is why we based our entire system off of Hemsky for so long, it is his individual gamebreaking ability we leaned on, but this was an error, LA recieved their gamebreaking plays from many individuals during last years run via the systems correct execution and the opportunitys are not player specific they are spread out teamwide because they are system generated. These superman individual plays arent catalysed out of set plays or system tactics they are a result of system execution forcing an opponent into a huge terminal positional error. And this is done consistantly however it appears random but is far from random. LA doesnt need Hemmer but would be more effective with him if they could get him to share the puck and not be one dimensional in his attack. But its really steady system guys stepping out at the right time that makes the adjusted hybrid tick smoothly. Remember it was designed to make a less talented team competative in the regular season using the set plays and defensive structure and the playoffs switching to wide open creative transitions. Steady Eddy rules the day for 82 games and dons a superman cape for the playoffs. We have a roster full of uys who all keep a red cape in their locker stall, we need a new system or we will force these studs to play steady eddy for 82 games and they will leave for greener pastures, we need to feed their inner beasts with offense and wins.


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02-21-2013, 05:48 PM
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PumpkinBomb
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Rick Nash?
I've never seen Rick Nash or any other big forward that puts up more than 60 points hit anything, or play with any real physical edge.

the only thing that size advantage has is it makes some of these big players harder to knock off the puck.

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03-06-2013, 01:33 AM
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I'm thinking that the answer at this point is clear. My only question is if management moves both out. As of now if I had to choose between both, Hemsky would be down the road.

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03-06-2013, 01:42 AM
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GO99
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Hemmer in a heartbeat. Much too inconsistent. I would rather have lesser talented big guy out there than can put up 40 points.

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03-06-2013, 01:57 AM
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Move them both together for a big centerman like Getzlaf. Move Harti into the Top 6 to fill the spot on the wing.

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03-06-2013, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by oilfaninvan View Post
You trade Hemsky and build a second line around Nail Yakupov/Gagner.
This sounds like a plan. I really don't like see Yakupov at third line with belangers and such.

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