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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:11 AM
  #526
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02-21-2013, 02:11 AM
  #527
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Yeah but it was therefore i brought Lindros up. Stamkos still played less games then him, but was healthy.

But as i said, it's the only way we can handle active players like him.
But the reason some people view Lindros as likely to be out of the lineup for stretches isn't because he had a shortened career, but because he rarely ever played a full season.

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02-21-2013, 02:14 AM
  #528
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I guess I would probably view Stamkos as a very talented but inconsistent "rookie" at this level. I honestly don't know any better way to look at it.

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02-21-2013, 02:21 AM
  #529
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I guess I would probably view Stamkos as a very talented but inconsistent "rookie" at this level. I honestly don't know any better way to look at it.
Stamkos in his rookie season in the NHL (25 goals 50 points, wildly inconsistent), is basically how he would be at this level IMO - agreed.

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02-21-2013, 02:40 AM
  #530
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Irritating / awesome when talented players fall and throw confusion into your plans, but it's long overdue that someone took Honoured Master of Sports, D Nikolai Sologubov off the board.

Most clubs have a Hart Trophy or an Art Ross trophy winner, but few have trophy cabinets including the Order of the Red Banner of Labour, the Medal for Battle Merit and the Medal For Labour Valour.

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02-21-2013, 02:58 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think it's arguable at all. He and Novy were co-BPA for a long time IMO, and Drillon should have extra value as a wing.

Drillon is basically terrible at everything but scoring goals, but what a goal scorer! I was really surprised to see overpass pass on him in favor of Dave Taylor as a guy to finish off the reconstructed Punch Line.

You guys going with 3 pure scoring lines, eh? It'll be interesting to see how that works out for you.
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Strange to see so many experienced GMs go with 3 scoring lines.
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i was originally planning to pick among some 2 way depth players, but changed my mind. i don't think i have ever used 3 scoring lines before.
Melting pot of things to say on the subject:

- Dave and I, just as Nik, never thought of going with three scoring line. I've been in this draft for 10 of them (already!) and expect ATD#7, I always had a strong two-way, 3rd line (and was still suppose to do so). In all honesty, our team was getting built exactly as planned at the end of pick #300. Messier 1st round, Bill Cook #2, BDA #3, Eric Lindros #4 etc ...

However, at #344, we had the chance to select either a role player, or one of the all-time great goalscorer of Maple Leafs' history in Sid Smith. A leader, a FAST, 2SAST, 2TAST. A competent defensive player that won't be afraid to backcheck. He was a no-brainer pick on our side. Even with that selection, we still havn't change our plan to reunite a strong two-way line. We just, in our opinion, struck gold with Smith.

Until 20 picks ago, I didn't even knew that Gordie Drillon was still available. I scan through ATD#12 to see which players were still available (that's how I found that Sid Smith was there), but I didn't looked as high as #232, where he got taken last draft (I knew Kevin Stevens was still available, second on our list at #280 after Alf Smith kudos on that selection!). I had a PM asking me if Drillon would be my selection, when I was waiting for Dave to approve the selection of Sid Smith. Again, we had the chance to either draft a role player, or a ART ROSS winner, 2FAST, a SAST, a FIVE TIME Top-5 in goalscoring.

Yes, there's some excellent role players available, who made great career of shadowing all-star player and scoring opportunistic goals, but after 360 selection, can you really leave a player of Drillon's caliber on the table? He was not part of the plan, but we gonna find room for him. There's no question our team will be better at the end of the day with Drillon than selecting 'generic good two-way player'.

We're gonna shovel the lines a bit with that selection. Sid Smith and Gordie Drillon are surprisingly similar players in the offensive zone. Both speedy, goalscorer who made careers of tipping pucks and scoring garbage goals. Together on the same line would be a waste of their full potential. Sid Smith will switch spot with Alf Smith, who will now anchor the 3rd line:

Rick Martin - Mark Messier - Bill Cook
Sid Smith - Eric Lindros - Didier Pitre
Alf Smith - XXX - Gordie Drillon

----

One last thing. Someone was making allusion that Drillon had a short career. Yes, he did play only 6 seasons in the NHL, but what is even more extraordinary is that in his last season before getting shipped abroad on the battlefield, Drillon was 5th in goalscoring and the 8th best offensive player in the NHL. We're giving free passes (and I agree) with guys like Milt Schmidt, Syl Apps, Woodrow Dumart etc ... that lost prime years to the WWII, well Drillon left the NHL at the age of 29, being one of the best goalscorer and offensive player of the league. Without WWII, his offensive exploit would certainly be more impressive.

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:07 AM
  #532
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Steals of the draft:

Kharlamov
Maltsev
Cowley
Shutt
Kerr
Drillon

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02-21-2013, 03:33 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
However, at #344, we had the chance to select either a role player, or one of the all-time great goalscorer of Maple Leafs' history in Sid Smith. A leader, a FAST, 2SAST, 2TAST. A competent defensive player that won't be afraid to backcheck. He was a no-brainer pick on our side. Even with that selection, we still havn't change our plan to reunite a strong two-way line. We just, in our opinion, struck gold with Smith.
Didn't Smith give up the "C" shortly after receiving it? Wasn't the reason that he couldn't handle the pressure of leadership? Is he really a leader?

I also think you've got a long way to go to show he was a competent defensive player.

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02-21-2013, 04:02 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Didn't Smith give up the "C" shortly after receiving it? Wasn't the reason that he couldn't handle the pressure of leadership? Is he really a leader?

I also think you've got a long way to go to show he was a competent defensive player.
- Yes, Sid Smith gave up his captaincy after one season, as he though this was too much responsibility and his number suffered in the process. A leader doesn't always means a loud mouth ala Mark Messier. He was a gentleman and a quiet player who leaded by example. He was looked up too by the younger players in his tenure with the Maple Leafs. He won't be wearing a letter for les Nordiques.

- I already have the necessary information to describe Sid Smith as a competent defensive player. Just so we understand each other: by competent I mean someone that will backcheck and help his teammate defensively; that won't hurt his team defensively. I'm not trying to sell Smith as great defensive player or even a two-way player: he was not.

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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
Irritating / awesome when talented players fall and throw confusion into your plans, but it's long overdue that someone took Honoured Master of Sports, D Nikolai Sologubov off the board.

Most clubs have a Hart Trophy or an Art Ross trophy winner, but few have trophy cabinets including the Order of the Red Banner of Labour, the Medal for Battle Merit and the Medal For Labour Valour.
I'm a little rusty on all these awards: what do all of these honors means in term of actual hockey accomplishment (or non-hockey accomplishment, I'm curious)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Steals of the draft:

Kharlamov
Maltsev
Cowley
Shutt
Kerr
Drillon
Not surprisingly, all forwards! (I don't agree with the first name on your list though). It would far more interesting to try and figure who got the best steal at defence. The list would be far shorter!


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-21-2013 at 04:08 AM.
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Old
02-21-2013, 04:15 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Steals of the draft:

Kharlamov
Maltsev
Cowley
Shutt
Kerr
Drillon
Shutt?! No way. He used to be hideously overrated in the past. Here are Steve Shutt's peak Vs2 scoring numbers:

Steve Shutt:
86, 70, 66, 65, 59, 54

...and that's playing mostly with Lafleur. There are still wingers out there right now who were better scorers and arguably better all-around players than Steve Shutt. nik did well to draft him for the Lafleur line because proven chemistry is useful with a loose cannon like Lafleur, but he was no kind of steal where he was taken, and should fall further based upon his actual, individual accomplishments.

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02-21-2013, 04:18 AM
  #536
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Not surprisingly, all forwards! (I don't agree with the first name on your list though). It would far more interesting to try and figure who got the best steal at defence. The list would be far shorter!
Is it possible for a defenceman to be a steal in the ATD?

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02-21-2013, 04:21 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Is it possible for a defenceman to be a steal in the ATD?
It's very difficult for the top-end one, especially with the release of the very informative HoH defenceman project. But I think you can find fantastic third pairing defenceman very, very late in the draft.

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02-21-2013, 04:21 AM
  #538
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Is it possible for a defenceman to be a steal in the ATD?
Barry Beck was last year.

It wasn't uncommon for defensemen to be steals in the past, but that well has pretty much dried up, yeah.

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02-21-2013, 04:42 AM
  #539
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I'm a little rusty on all these awards: what do all of these honors means in term of actual hockey accomplishment (or non-hockey accomplishment, I'm curious)?
Sologubov earned Medal for Battle Merit durung WWII - he actually took part in combats and was wounded.

Order of the Red Banner of Labour is typical Soviet BS witht motivational purposes, in the end it was worth nothing. In Sologubov's case i think it's actually hockey award - i'm not sure, but i can imagine, he got as add on to olympic gold - basically reward from communistic party for olympic victory.

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02-21-2013, 04:53 AM
  #540
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Sologubov earned Medal for Battle Merit durung WWII - he actually took part in combats and was wounded.

Order of the Red Banner of Labour is typical Soviet BS witht motivational purposes, in the end it was worth nothing. In Sologubov's case i think it's actually hockey award - i'm not sure, but i can imagine, he got as add on to olympic gold - basically reward from communistic party for olympic victory.
Yeah. I think there is reason to critizise the soviet program in the fifties, they did not dominate nearly as much as during later decades and there's also reason to question the whole european game back then i believe.

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02-21-2013, 06:21 AM
  #541
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Are we at the stage where it's wise to draft players who haven't even had five-year careers? Based on the talent and careers of undrafteds, one wouldn't think so. Prepare the stakes for a burning!

There's a time and a place for 3-4 year careers, and it's at best an all-time draft's BENCH.

Without doubt, there are certainly some wonderful centers from hockey's history yet to be drafted. It's a very deep position.

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02-21-2013, 06:28 AM
  #542
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Drillon is basically terrible at everything but scoring goals, but what a goal scorer! I was really surprised to see overpass pass on him in favor of Dave Taylor as a guy to finish off the reconstructed Punch Line.
We definitely discussed Drillon for 1st line RW a few times but decided against him. Short career, and one thing that really gets me is his benching in the 1942 final.

We had also decided to go with Andreychuk as our net guy and didn't want too many limited players in the lineup.

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02-21-2013, 06:38 AM
  #543
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The Boston Mules select Dave Poulin / CTR.
Big fan here.

Hard worker, great defensively, great on faceoffs, great penalty killer and pretty decent offensively.

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02-21-2013, 06:56 AM
  #544
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We definitely discussed Drillon for 1st line RW a few times but decided against him. Short career, and one thing that really gets me is his benching in the 1942 final.

We had also decided to go with Andreychuk as our net guy and didn't want too many limited players in the lineup.
- As I wrote before, Drillon do have a short, six years career, but was hurt by the fact that he was sent to war in 1943. At the end of his 6th season, at the age of 29, he was 5th in goalscoring and 8th in overall scoring, so we've got to assume he would of fair pretty well in the war years. If we give free passes to Syl Apps, Milt Schmidt among others, Drillon should have the same chances. I do not consider Drillon having a short career for the ATD.

- The famous benching of 1942 is well documented, and I wouldn't defend his performance (He still produce 5 points in 9 games). However, Drillon was apologetic of his performances and understood why his coach benched him. He was a team player. Second, beside 1942, Drillon was actually quite a great playoff performer. Awarded a retro Conn Smythe in 1938 by SiHR on a losing cause, 13 points in 10 games in 1939, 5 points in 7 games in 1941, 6 points in 5 games in 1943.

Gordie Drillon is definitely the definition of a one-way player, but he do have a few thing going for him: One of the most lethal shot of his time, great garbage goalscorer, speed & great playoff performer. I'll be making an honest biography on him, so we'll see what good and bad I will find on him.

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02-21-2013, 07:07 AM
  #545
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Just look at Drillon's 5 year peak, how many chosen after #250 are better than:

-Retro Art Ross
-Retro Conn Smythe
-3 time post season all-star (2 1st, 1 2nd)
-Playoff goals leader twice

I'm still boggled how he fell to this territory and am scratching my head at some of the RW's ahead on the list.

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02-21-2013, 07:23 AM
  #546
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Has Stamkos ever played RW? For whatever reason, still, whenever I hear his name ''right winger'' is visioned in my mind.
Meh, the answer is not really, but yes, he has. But that's not what he does, if you know what I mean. Sometimes you'll see him out there with a center that I can't name yet and that will shift him to the wing. But generally speaking, he makes good use of the elite playmaking winger Martin St. Louis while he parks at center. He will play the off-side on the power play for his ridiculous one-timing ability, but that hardly factors into one's natural position.

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02-21-2013, 07:30 AM
  #547
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- As I wrote before, Drillon do have a short, six years career, but was hurt by the fact that he was sent to war in 1943. At the end of his 6th season, at the age of 29, he was 5th in goalscoring and 8th in overall scoring, so we've got to assume he would of fair pretty well in the war years. If we give free passes to Syl Apps, Milt Schmidt among others, Drillon should have the same chances. I do not consider Drillon having a short career for the ATD.
Drillon's case is different from Apps and Schmidt. They both played in the NHL after the war with success. Drillon did not and it's not clear that he could have been effective. At the least he would have had to change his style of play. The post-war NHL was a faster game than the pre-war NHL as the introduction of the red line changed the game.

Also for all his playoff scoring his team never won the Cup until he was benched. And both Toronto and Montreal were much better both offensively and defensively after he left. Nothing conclusive but several question marks.


Last edited by overpass: 02-21-2013 at 07:50 AM.
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02-21-2013, 07:35 AM
  #548
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Yeah. I think there is reason to critizise the soviet program in the fifties, they did not dominate nearly as much as during later decades and there's also reason to question the whole european game back then i believe.
It was certainly weaker, but it was in the natural stage of development, no? Couldn't we look at it much the same way we look at Harvey Pulford's generation in Canada pre-WWI, where multi-sport athletes who dabbled in hockey were the norm?

The big question I have about Soviet hockey in this era was how developed it was outside of Moscow. Did anyone else in the country play? I think the modern, post-Communist NHL is the best its ever been, because Russians, Czechs, etc all play, but few non-Canadians played in 1930. I feel like the same limitation applied to early Soviet hockey, which was essentially just Moscow hockey, but I've never seen good information about this. Moscow teams won the hockey league every season under communism, so I don't know how much that helps, and I've only seen two teams (Sverdlovsk and Krasnoyarsk) having league success in bandy.

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02-21-2013, 07:51 AM
  #549
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It was certainly weaker, but it was in the natural stage of development, no? Couldn't we look at it much the same way we look at Harvey Pulford's generation in Canada pre-WWI, where multi-sport athletes who dabbled in hockey were the norm?
The big difference is that Pulford played in the best league in the world. Sologubov played in an era where better hockey was going on. His league wasn't even as strong as the AHL.

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02-21-2013, 07:51 AM
  #550
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Drillon's case is different from Apps and Schmidt. They both played in the NHL after the war with success. Drillon did not and it's not clear that he could have been effective. At the least he would have had to change his style of play. The post-war NHL was a faster game than the pre-war NHL as the introduction of the red line changed the game.
I think it's pretty clear that Drillon would of been a productive if he had play after the 1942-43 season. As I said before: last season in the NHL, 5th in goalscoring, 8th in overall scoring at the age of 29. Better question is: how long would he still have been productive? That is up for debate.

Speed his actually an attribute of Drillon, so I don't see why a faster NHL would affect him. Now, if you wanna knock Drillon down because he never played after the introduction of the red line, you'll have to knock down every players who played in the first 65 years of hockey.

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Also for all his playoff scoring his team never won the Cup until he was benched. And both Toronto and Montreal were much better both offensively and defensively after he left. Nothing conclusive but several question marks.
A lot of players never won the Stanley Cup while being great playoff performer. Drillon is a one-way player: his job is to put puck in the net and rack up points. He was tremendous at his job and great in the playoffs at doing so. I think it's trivial to say that both Toronto and Montreal were better team when he left. Gordie Drillon was a very top goalscorer when he was playing the game. Losing a player like that hurt his team. If you are implying that a team without Drillon is better than a team with him in the lineup, I found it ludicrous.


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-21-2013 at 07:58 AM.
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