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Old
02-20-2013, 07:10 PM
  #126
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
While Gio isnt the most skilled out there, he still show up every games, his work ethic is impeccable, respects the system, is a great team player appeciated in the locker room, he brings leadership and a good vet presence, so why would we trade him when depth is certainly one of our biggest strength and the reason why the team goes so well?? There is no logic reason to trade him when everything seems suddenly possible.. Gio is a little warrior who can score clutch goals, who is pretty responsible defensively and totally commited to the good of this team.
Completey agree......unfortunately half of this board treats the NHL like an EA Sports game. Gionta is an integral component to the fabric of this team.

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02-20-2013, 07:38 PM
  #127
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Gotta love these, "I'm smart enough to realize player X sucks, but know that there are GMs out there who are dumb enough to give a good return to the Canadiens in exchange for player X", threads.

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02-20-2013, 09:49 PM
  #128
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I'd like to think that the habs have enough scoring options that when some guys get into a slump, other guys will be there to fill the void. Some guys are filling in the void for gionta right now, but he's capable of pulling his own weight as well, and when some other guys dry up, gionta should be due to pick up some or all of that weight.

It has to be scoring by committee on this current club, so why not keep gionta around and re-evaluate after his contract expires? Sure, if you get a deal that knocks your socks off, go ahead, but I don't see a reason to actively shop him right now. I feel it will be his last contract with this club, anyways.

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02-20-2013, 09:58 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Don't understand the hate for Gionta. He's not scoring, but he is part of the reason why the team is having success. His defensive game is exceptional. Combined with Plekanec he's the reason why we are doing so well at shutting down opponents. Sure he's way overpaid for a defensive specialist, but he is still an integral part of the team defensive game. There would be a huge hole with him gone right now without an adequate replacement.

I expect to get attacked, but I stand by what I said. I have no problem with Gionta's game right now.
I'm with you on this. I don't understand what the problem is.

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02-20-2013, 10:21 PM
  #130
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I'll go on record and say that I actually like Gio, and that he's still relevant to this team both offensively and defensively.

I do think there are better choices for captain though, but, that'll have to wait.

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02-20-2013, 10:46 PM
  #131
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I don't like Gio, I've been saying that since two years ago. The patented whip-my-stick-back-and-forth-to-slap-the-puck-at-the-blue-line-thingy is disgusting. The inability to catch a pass... The inability to be strong or to skate fast....

But.
I still think we need him this year.

He's a complementary winger at the moment. He needs 0 PP time, and I mean 0, nada, niet, non criss... He might not be fit anymore for the top 6 but who else do we really have ? Right now we need to put him in a situation to succeed.
How? Big C/Plek/Big winger/line carrier. After all he's not that horrible defensively and he still posses some offensive instinct. (Which is why we're all so frustrated with him missing all those chances.)

I say either you put him on the third line (Where he really belong and oh boy, did I say that a long time ago.) or you use him as a complementary winger (Like atm.)

Maybe (when gally comes back.) we could try and switch both the kid and the vet ?
Or maybe we could use Gionta to create a new shutdown line with Eller ? We have one top 9 forward that is the odd man out at the moment and I can't seem to 4 good lines.
TBH, Maybe we should trade him. We're blessed with a pretty healthy line up though, this could change and I'd be happy having Gionta being the oddman out.

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02-20-2013, 11:20 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Gionta isn't called a garbage or Charlatan by everybody. There are valid arguments to trade him as there are valid ones not to. Sure I read garbage in this thread, but I also read some valid dicussions. Your post brings nothing more than the ones you're pointing.
Something you see often in threads, i.e., "you post doesn't contribute to anything either."

If you can't tell, my point is that it's ridiculous to suggest things like he's garbage and a charlatan, which WERE posts made and which I vehemently disagree with. I've written at length about Gio, Eller, Plekanec, Markov and so on when people were kicking them. Not surprisingly, they prove people wrong (most lately Eller, and I'm not even posting in that thread to say "told ya so"). It's simply tiring to come on here and see the so called valid arguments for Gio being useless/overpaid/too old for this ****, etc.

There have been some posters who seem to agree with me, but it only takes a few to make one disgusted like:

- can't believe he's our captain
- he's a charlatan (!!!!!)

Then the stats police who ignore that he brings all the things you want in a captain.

You want me to contribute something? Gio is the Habs captain and on our top 6 and on our most consistent line. Deal with it and just so you're prepared, there's plenty of crow left for the haters. Can't wait til the "Gorges just gives speeches and is overpaid" thread comes up and ends up warranting replies to the contrary.


Trade Markov! Trade Plekanec! Eller is a bust! Bergevin is an idiot (re: PK)! Gionta is a horrible captain!

Sometimes it's really amazing to see the stuff on this board.

Also, wow, Patch scored one legit goal. Love the guy and am totally confident Cole will be back, but Gio has been doing way more productive things than those two all season. DD has climbed out of his torpor, Patch on his way, Cole next. Gio doesn't deserve this hate after all that he's proven in the past few years. I can't conceive that some fans think he doesn't care about the team or gives a half-assed effort.

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02-20-2013, 11:44 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
With the emergence of Gallagher and Eller and the building efficiency of White as a fourth liner, I wonder if Habs should think of trading Gionta.

Here's my humble toughts :

1- Gionta isn't really efficient since 2 years now. Not dominant at all in any aspect of the game.
2- Gionta could bring a good return come the trade deadline because he still has value for a team going all the way (veteran, leadership, playoffs experience) or for a young team thinking they may win it all.
3- Trading Gionta wouldn't be a tanking move because he's replaceable, and it would still be a move to help the team for the future depending on what comes back.

I would contemplate the same thing for Cole, but not for both; Habs still need veteran presence. But Cole, the way he's playing, doesn't have the same value right now, and I do think he will turns things around, if not this year then next year.

What do you guys think about that?
just means hes going to have less on his shoulders and be ready when it counts. with the guys doing the job, it just makes him fall exactly where he should be in the depth chart imho.

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02-20-2013, 11:50 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well maybe the healthy lineup, and somewhat to my surprise, could and should see a Ryan White centering the 4th based on what could be his faceoffs strengths, at least when you compare them to the rest of the C's. So frankly, if we want to see Eller evolves, he won't do it centering the 4th. So the day that he has enough confidence to also shine as a winger, something we didn't think possible, I most definately see Eller at Gionta's spot. Which in the end means a lineup of:

Eller-Pleks-Bourque
Gallagher-Galchenyuk-Pacioretty (interchange whoever on those lines, whether it's Eller, Gallagher or Pacioretty)
Prust-DD-Cole

My point being....I don't see a Gionta on a 4th line. But I would believe that to be a better team and to see our kids improve, that's where he should be playing. And like I mention...you could even give him tons of PK time if you want. Just no PP time. And reduce his minutes ES.
I respectfully disagree and I think he is a good PP player and a player that makes our team better with his intelligence, speed and scoring skills. He makes our transition game better and he draws a lot of penalties from opposing teams. His heart and work ethic makes him exactly the type of player a guy like bourque needs to play with imho. Eller can play 1 or 2 seasons like he does now -hasn't sustained great play before, but id def give him more PP time - before anything needs to happen. he needs to slowly gain confidence in himself, not being put on the throne and fail. he doesnt need that pressure at least not this year. so when you said '' the day that he has enough confidence '' I thought it was the center of your comment, with which I can agree, I just don't think its going to be in the near future ... say a full year , and by then ... the picture might have already changed a lot. But with the picture being changed ... you're still going to need that heart and work ethic and skill set that gionta provides, so I don't see the need to move him to make room for someone if he leaves a leadership hole behind its pointless imho.


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Old
02-21-2013, 12:04 AM
  #135
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It's nearly impossible for a team have all their players playing as well as they can. It's just the way it is. It's very possible that Gionta will start producing soon, and another player, say Bourque, could struggle for the next 10 games.

THE TEAM IS WINNING. Let's act like they are.

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02-21-2013, 01:02 AM
  #136
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How can people question if Gionta has good leadership, or if he's a good captain, and then in the next sentence say "But he has value to a team wanting to make a cup run with his veteran experience."... That's like saying "I don't know if he's a good lawyer or not, but that law firm could really use him at crunch time."

Come on people. Like Carey Price (the HF user) said, the team is winning. Yes, our line up is not ideal (3 small forwards, a couple soft D, etc..) but we're getting the job done just fine, at least for now. All of these threads questioning whether we should trade guys or how brutal guys have been... how about we save those for a season like last year? If the team isn't rolling and guys are playing brutal, that's the time for these discussions. Right now it just seems like now Gomez is gone, we need a new whipping boy and we're holding game-to-game try outs.

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02-21-2013, 01:03 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
It's nearly impossible for a team have all their players playing as well as they can. It's just the way it is. It's very possible that Gionta will start producing soon, and another player, say Bourque, could struggle for the next 10 games.

THE TEAM IS WINNING. Let's act like they are.
This ^^^. Thank you, you get it.

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02-21-2013, 01:06 AM
  #138
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We'll see.

I say we will need him come playoff time.

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02-21-2013, 02:29 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by BobbyFischer View Post
We'll see.

I say we will need him come playoff time.
He definitely has been a very clutch player for us, not only in the playoffs.

I get that memories fade quickly, so perhaps the fact that we're doing well is actually the cause for people to go nitpicking.

I've even said that Eller could have his spot on that line IF he could play that wing, but I see no problem with Gio's game, as simple as it is. We have other players doing more complex stuff. Even I get slightly annoyed when it's just another slapper, but the guy knows what he's doing and many of those slappers have gone in for us over the years. His timing has been off on some plays, but take another look and you'll see they weren't the most perfect put aways (others have fluffed on those, including Markov).

The Pleks-Bourque-Gio line when on the ice gives me confidence that something good is going to happen or at least, probably something bad isn't going to happen. I really think that the same way DD-Cole-Patch were magical together last year should put things into perspective when looking at a single player. Gio and Pleks play very well together and communicate amazingly - you can see it from all the clips and if you follow the team (it's not some wild speculation, these vets know how to get it together). With Rene's turnaround play this season, it's brought a new dimension to each of those players and it's paying off.

Am also glad Pleks has steady linemates.

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02-21-2013, 03:45 AM
  #140
WhiskeySeven
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You guys are defending Gionta for the weakest of reasons.

The point is simple: He's not physical, he's not skilled and he's not producing well. Having watched all his games I can also say that he's holding our main offensive line back and exhausting them with his inability to recover pucks in his own lane. He's been atrocious on the powerplay as well.

Not complaining until we start losing is classic bi-polar Habs fan behaviour and I won't engage in it - we're a winning team and we need to hold our players accountable. Gionta has great work ethic and he knows as well as any that his production has severely declined*. That said I don't think it's in the best interests of the organization to award foresight with PP time and top6 minutes. And he's not strong enough for the bottom6 either AND he's paid 5m a year. Kaberle aside, Gionta is #2 with a bullet as the next buy-out worthy skater with his declining performance.

Given that he's paid like a scoring winger, he's played as a scoring winger (with #1 centre and massive PP time) and he's treated like a scoring winger - I'm going to call him a charlatan until he bloody well performs like a scoring winger.

Acting like I'm the one who's goofy for being critical of an obvious weak-link during a win-streak is classic "loser fan" behaviour. Gionta hasn't done much of anything this year and it's about damn time the heat is raised on him.

Edit:* what I mean to say is not that his ppg has declined but his honest production, his involvement in executing plays and scoring and general positive hockey.


Last edited by WhiskeySeven: 02-21-2013 at 03:55 AM.
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02-21-2013, 05:55 AM
  #141
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Frankly, I am not surprised this topic is being discussed. Brian Gionta has provided plenty of examples for criticism, with his play so for this year. However, Gionta is still a good goalscorer in the NHL. If a team wants to have any type of success in the NHL, they need a good collection of decent goal scorers. Brian Gionta is not a bad player in his own zone and, along with the help of Plekanec and Bourqe, has been a part of Montreal's most productive line.(1) He is also on the line which gets most of the defensive responsibilites. (2) The only line which gets lower zone start time is the 4th. line. (3) How we are even considering trading a good goal scorer, when it looks like the playoffs are within grasp, is boggling. If he keeps up his level of play through the entire year, and hopefully the playoffs, I will be happy.


1-Canadiens Stats
2-From CORSI relative to competition and watching plekanec's opposition every game.
3-Zone start time

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02-21-2013, 05:57 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
You guys are defending Gionta for the weakest of reasons.
His Corsi Rel Qoc is +1.030, and only 45% of his zone starts are in the offensive zone. Please adjust your expectations.

I agree that a 0.5 ppg is not spectacular here, but he plays in very difficult situations.

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02-21-2013, 06:03 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
His Corsi Rel Qoc is +1.030, and only 45% of his zone starts are in the offensive zone. Please adjust your expectations.

I agree that a 0.5 ppg is not spectacular here, but he plays in very difficult situations.
also worth noting that his line ends in the offensive zone an even 50% of the time. A +5% change.

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02-21-2013, 06:32 AM
  #144
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Probably just me....but I prefer people trying to find solution how to improve the team WHILE WE'RE WINNING, instead of wanting to fire everybody the next time we'll lose 6-2. But I guess in here, people prefer reactionary threads instead...much more spectacular.

And yes, Gionta is a reason why we win. 1 reason. Guess what though...so is Gallagher. And yet, we are still winning without him. And that's what people have the most trouble with in this board. It's always either black or white. In no way am I saying that Gionta is finished, if so show me where. I'm saying to START reducing his minutes. To stop playing him as if he's REALLY top 6. We have better options on the PP also. Are people really convinced that Plekanec, Pacioretty, DD, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and Bourque aren't better options on a PP? And note, I'm even not talking about Cole. And people could even add Eller to a certain extent. And others might EVEN consider Prust and making him work in front of the goalie.

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02-21-2013, 06:34 AM
  #145
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Whiskey, please check a dictionary for the meaning of the word "charlatan", I don't think you're using it properly.

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02-21-2013, 06:35 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
His Corsi Rel Qoc is +1.030, and only 45% of his zone starts are in the offensive zone. Please adjust your expectations.

I agree that a 0.5 ppg is not spectacular here, but he plays in very difficult situations.
So based on that...Travis Moen is a untouchable? THE Travis Moen? And we should re-sign Colby Armstrong to a 5-year deal next year? Can people put somewhat of "break" on those stats as if they were THE only thing that matters?

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02-21-2013, 06:41 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So based on that...Travis Moen is a untouchable? THE Travis Moen? And we should re-sign Colby Armstrong to a 5-year deal next year? Can people put somewhat of "break" on those stats as if they were THE only thing that matters?
Where did I write that these stats are the only thing that matters?

They're part of the package, that's all, I wasn't trying to write the most comprehensive argument of all time, only one succint and valid point.

Colby Armstrong on a 5-year deal? Thank you for the non-sequitur. FYI even if they were equal (and they're not) we would only add 1 year to Armstrong this offseason, as Gionta will have 1 year left.

ETA: Where did I write that Gionta is untouchable?

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02-21-2013, 06:44 AM
  #148
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At this point, Gionta still has a place in our lineup.

He's probably not in his good roster spot though.

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02-21-2013, 06:55 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Love you too. Yet, a great attitude, professionnalism, work ethic, fearless and committed defensively is usually traits we love to mention about bottom 6 players. Top 6 players should also have great scorers and great point getters at least on a great team. If that's what we are right now, Gionta needs to bring those traits aside from his "great qualities as a person" type of traits.

And absolutely not sure whatsoever what his past stats have anything to do with where he is at RIGHT NOW. There is a reason why Lamoriello, who considered Gionta has almost his son, told him to leave NJ and run to take Montreal offer....it because it made no sense whatsoever. Yet, he had a GREAT first season for us.With the numbers that look like slowly but surely going down. He,s clearly not tradeable material based on his salary. And I wouldn't put him on the stands either. But I just hope we could work with him by reducing his minutes. If that means I don't know hockey well then....fine. His contract his due just in 2 small years. We'll see if teams take into consideration his past years when it will be time to re-sign. Do you make him an offer? Do you still want him top 9 in 2 years?
You have to cut the guy some slack in terms of the stats.

1-he is playing against the toughest opponents on the team
2-he hadn't played a game in over a year
3-he didn't get any games in Europe like some and no preseason
4-his stats are not far off what they should be...what I would normally expect is about 3 more goals, his assists are about on par. So let's start threads about a guy needing to be out of the top 6 despite working his tail off, being a great leader/example and being good defensively because he is 3 goals off what he should be coming off a 1 year layoff with no preseason...brilliant!

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02-21-2013, 07:07 AM
  #150
MXD
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You have to cut the guy some slack in terms of the stats.

1-he is playing against the toughest opponents on the team
2-he hadn't played a game in over a year
3-he didn't get any games in Europe like some and no preseason
4-his stats are not far off what they should be...what I would normally expect is about 3 more goals, his assists are about on par. So let's start threads about a guy needing to be out of the top 6 despite working his tail off, being a great leader/example and being good defensively because he is 3 goals off what he should be coming off a 1 year layoff with no preseason...brilliant!

Bolded is a prime example of relying to much on stats, and not enough on eyeball test.

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