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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:52 AM
  #551
Hawkman
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post


Are we at the stage where it's wise to draft players who haven't even had five-year careers? Based on the talent and careers of undrafteds, one wouldn't think so. Prepare the stakes for a burning! There's a time and a place for 3-4 year careers, and it's at best an all-time draft's BENCH. Without doubt, there are certainly some wonderful centers from hockey's history yet to be drafted. It's a very deep position.
I think a player like that could be a borderline top 600 player and a 4th line center and could reasonably be drafted in the second half of round 19.

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02-21-2013, 07:59 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Are we at the stage where it's wise to draft players who haven't even had five-year careers? Based on the talent and careers of undrafteds, one wouldn't think so. Prepare the stakes for a burning!

There's a time and a place for 3-4 year careers, and it's at best an all-time draft's BENCH.

Without doubt, there are certainly some wonderful centers from hockey's history yet to be drafted. It's a very deep position.
I think that it is up to the individuals to decide how they weigh careers.

We have drafted plenty of players who have a 3-4 year peak with other average or even mediocre years and no one bats an eye.

I wouldn't have drafted Stamkos but I can understand the thinking in doing so..

I mean:

g: 1, 1, 2, (4 this year so far)

points: 2, (3 this year so far), 5, 5,


So conceivably by the time the ATD playoffs roll around he could be a player with 4 top 5s in goals and points.

That exceeds the peak of many players drafted so far, and a lot of people here value peak more than longevity. (I'll take both if I can personally!)

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02-21-2013, 08:02 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
g: 1, 1, 2, (4 this year so far)

points: 2, (3 this year so far), 5, 5,
...so far? This is NOT a projection draft. One quarter of a year is one quarter of a year. No more. No "so far..."

What will be a decent pick at this point in ATD 2015 we are not to in the least consider. Plan ahead your shortlist for rounds 12-13 then if you wish.

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02-21-2013, 08:06 AM
  #554
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Oh, I'm up. Thanks for the PM

Give me a few.

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Old
02-21-2013, 08:09 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think the 1976 WCs are where I saw Martinec and Novy playing together before too. I assumed it was more regular than that.
It would appear from what you two have posted that Martinec and Novy might have only been regular linemates for tournaments that happened in 1976 and 1977, but that was basically the height of Czechoslovakian hockey.
I'm pretty sure that the 1977 WC and the 1981 WC were the only big tournaments where they were regular linemates. In the 1976 WC, it definitely looks like Martinec played with his linemates from Pardubice, i.e. Jiri Novak and Bohuslav Stastny (check out the goals scored by CSSR in the tournament http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistrov...Dm_hokeji_1976*). In the 1976 Canada Cup, it was a bit inconsistent; I believe it was only the 1st final (which they lost 6-0), where Novy and Martinec started and finished the game on the same line. From the 1976 Olympics, I've seen only the USSR game and in that they definitely played on a different line. I think this would be true for other games too.

* Yeah, Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but I'm pretty convinced those stats are mostly correct. Anyway, it looks like Novy played with Peter Stastny and Jaroslav Pouzar. In the other USSR game, there's a goal scored by P. Stastny, with Martinec and Novy assisting, but I think that was probably a PP goal - or Martinec just hadn't come off the ice yet or vice versa


Last edited by VMBM: 02-21-2013 at 08:29 AM.
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Old
02-21-2013, 08:16 AM
  #556
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So Nik gets criticized for taking a 2 time maurice winner but it was fine to take Shea Weber a man who has 2 1st ASTs and really not much else...

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02-21-2013, 08:22 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I never liked Drillon back where he used to be picked because he was such a limited player, but at this point his pure offensive game is way ahead of everybody else. Drillon was the last guy to whom I was referring way back in the 8th round when I said there were still a few guys out there who were arguably the best offensive player available. I would personally never attempt to build a third scoringline around Gordie Drillon, but his value at this point is undeniable.
i am legitimately curious how drillon was way ahead of stamkos offensively. i ask b/c one of the reasons i picked stamkos is b/c i thought of drillon and then thought of stamkos (similar to my thinking of kerr and then andreychuk).

if it is b/c of longevity, i would think several players would be close to drillon.

in a league without europeans, stamkos also would have a scoring title, and his placements in scoring would be 1, 2, 3, whereas drillon's are 1, 2, 4, 8.

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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Just look at Drillon's 5 year peak, how many chosen after #250 are better than:

-Retro Art Ross
-Retro Conn Smythe
-3 time post season all-star (2 1st, 1 2nd)
-Playoff goals leader twice

I'm still boggled how he fell to this territory and am scratching my head at some of the RW's ahead on the list.
drillon was famously lazy and bad defensively, for which he was benched in '42 finals. during or after '42 finals, fans in toronto threw rocks at his house and heckled him on the streets (i probably should have posted that in dirt thread). in '38, the season he led the NHL in scoring, he tied in AS voting with cecil dillon (dillon actually got more 1st place votes), who scored 13p less in a 48 game season.

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02-21-2013, 08:26 AM
  #558
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I'll take Pat Egan, D

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Old
02-21-2013, 08:33 AM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
So Nik gets criticized for taking a 2 time maurice winner but it was fine to take Shea Weber a man who has 2 1st ASTs and really not much else...
Weber has a 6.5 year career and Best Defenseman Award at the Olympics in a gold-medal win against the world's best of his era, has two 1st team all-star selections versus' Stamkos' two 2nd team all-star selections and Weber plays a position with less depth and more picks already taken by far, D versus C.

And most of us thought the Weber pick sub-par I hope. So the Stamkos pick has even less lustre.

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02-21-2013, 08:34 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
drillon was famously lazy and bad defensively, for which he was benched in '42 finals. during or after '42 finals, fans in toronto threw rocks at his house and heckled him on the streets (i probably should have posted that in dirt thread). in '38, the season he led the NHL in scoring, he tied in AS voting with cecil dillon (dillon actually got more 1st place votes), who scored 13p less in a 48 game season.
- He was benched in 1942, absolutely. Saying is was benched because he was bad defensively and lazy is speculation, unless you have proof of the contrary.
Quote:
Although it was widely reported that Drillon was unhappy about the benching, but he would later dispute that.

"(Coach) just told me that my style of hockey was not the same as the rest of the team, and we needed this to beat Detroit. And he was right. I was going bad at the time, no doubt about it," he said.

I don't see how people throwing rocks at his house and heckling him on the street add to the conversation of his greatness (although an interesting tidbits). Hockey fans in Montreal heckled Patrice Brisebois for so many years only because he was given a contract he didn't deserved, Vancouver fan destroyed a city because they lost the Stanley Cup final. Stupid hockey fans shouldn't have any impacts on how we view a player greatness.

So, what you were saying is that in 1938, both Drillon and Dillon were equally as good, but Dillon was the more well rounded of the two? I totally agree with this assessment.

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Old
02-21-2013, 08:39 AM
  #561
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FWIW, I was eyeing Stamkos for a 4th line PP/specialist/spare forward role. I think I picked him for that last year as well. This is too early for him, for sure.

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02-21-2013, 08:52 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Weber has a 6.5 year career and Best Defenseman Award at the Olympics in a gold-medal win against the world's best of his era, has two 1st team all-star selections versus' Stamkos' two 2nd team all-star selections and Weber plays a position with less depth and more picks already taken by far, D versus C.

And most of us thought the Weber pick sub-par I hope. So the Stamkos pick has even less lustre.
I guess I should point out that I am not a fan of the Stamkos pick but I think ppl is a bit inconsistent when judging modern players.

Also Weber was the best defenceman of the WC not the olympics (Rafalski was the best defenseman in 2010) so no, I still dont see the wonder that is Weber...

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02-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #563
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Also Weber was the best defenceman of the WC not the olympics (Rafalski was the best defenseman in 2010) so no, I still dont see the wonder that is Weber...
Opps. But he was on the Olympic tourney all-star team, wasn't he? The 2nd best dman in the world against the world's best, plus two 1st team all-star seasons in the NHl plus over 6 years of top-level pro hockey. Not quite all-time great worthy of remembrance fifty years from now compared to a few undrafted blueliners, but closer to it than 22-year-old Stammy.

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02-21-2013, 08:55 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Big fan here.

Hard worker, great defensively, great on faceoffs, great penalty killer and pretty decent offensively.
Yeah, I was eying him as a 3rd or 4th liner and then all of a sudden the chance to put back the Propp / Poulin / Kerr line popped up. Lightning CAN strike twice!!

I do remember the post-season when both he and Propp played together for the Bruins and they provided the much needed offensive depth that always seemed to be lacking.....they were great and it made an obvious lasting impression on me.

Poulin is a sneaky killer on the PK, a big plus for me with this lineup.

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02-21-2013, 09:01 AM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I guess I should point out that I am not a fan of the Stamkos pick but I think ppl is a bit inconsistent when judging modern players.

Also Weber was the best defenceman of the WC not the olympics (Rafalski was the best defenseman in 2010) so no, I still dont see the wonder that is Weber...
Also, even if we take Stamkos' current totals (without projection), is he all that different from a guy like Frank McGee, who only had a four year career and retired at 23?

What separates Stamkos from Kevin Stevens - who also had a very short peak (though, his career was longer) but, has significant injury and character concerns.

(For the record, I didn't think Stevens or McGee were bad picks)

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02-21-2013, 09:02 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Opps. But he was on the Olympic tourney all-star team, wasn't he? The 2nd best dman in the world against the world's best, plus two 1st team all-star seasons in the NHl plus over 6 years of top-level pro hockey. Not quite all-time great worthy of remembrance fifty years from now compared to a few undrafted blueliners, but closer to it than 22-year-old Stammy.
I would still say that I dont that much of a difference between the picks, both players would quickly forgotten if they retired now although a 2 time maurice winner might be remembered more than a 2 time 1st AST defenceman which is basically as good as a 2nd AST center (both are second place no?).

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02-21-2013, 09:03 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I would still say that I dont that much of a difference between the picks, both players would quickly forgotten if they retired now...
Agreed.

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02-21-2013, 09:03 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Weber has a 6.5 year career and Best Defenseman Award at the Olympics in a gold-medal win against the world's best of his era, has two 1st team all-star selections versus' Stamkos' two 2nd team all-star selections and Weber plays a position with less depth and more picks already taken by far, D versus C.

And most of us thought the Weber pick sub-par I hope. So the Stamkos pick has even less lustre.
brian rafalski won best d-man at 2010 olympics.

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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
- He was benched in 1942, absolutely. Saying is was benched because he was bad defensively and lazy is speculation, unless you have proof of the contrary.

I don't see how people throwing rocks at his house and heckling him on the street add to the conversation of his greatness (although an interesting tidbits). Hockey fans in Montreal heckled Patrice Brisebois for so many years only because he was given a contract he didn't deserved, Vancouver fan destroyed a city because they lost the Stanley Cup final. Stupid hockey fans shouldn't have any impacts on how we view a player greatness.

So, what you were saying is that in 1938, both Drillon and Dillon were equally as good, but Dillon was the more well rounded of the two? I totally agree with this assessment.
i am not trying to trash drillon, and i think he was a good pick. i am just explaining that drillon's reputation clashes with his stats. b/c we have not seen the vast majority of players, it becomes too easy to miss or ignore their faults. it is so much easier to find positive information than negative.

you are right, though, that i don't know why he was benched in '42 finals. i just assumed b/c drillon's reputation is so associated with certain things. he was also not the only player benched.

i think drillon was also wrongly assumed to be slow, based on being stereotyped as a certain kind of slot-man we are familiar with: andreychuk, kerr, esposito, etc. but as you said, he was fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Also, even if we take Stamkos' current totals (without projection), is he all that different from a guy like Frank McGee, who only had a four year career and retired at 23?

What separates Stamkos from Kevin Stevens - who also had a very short peak (though, his career was longer) but, has significant injury and character concerns.

(For the record, I didn't think Stevens or McGee were bad picks)
i will also agree with this.

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02-21-2013, 09:12 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
brian rafalski won best d-man at 2010 olympics.


i am not trying to trash drillon, and i think he was a good pick. i am just explaining that drillon's reputation clashes with his stats. b/c we have not seen the vast majority of players, it becomes too easy to miss or ignore their faults. it is so much easier to find positive information than negative.

you are right, though, that i don't know why he was benched in '42 finals. he was also not the only player benched.
I don't think I've tried to hide the flaws in Drillon's game, not the others. We pretty much all agree that Drillon is a tremendous goalscorer and offensive force. He was a speedy skater that had some tremendous playoff years. However, he was poor defensively, was benched in the 1942 Stanley Cup final and had off-ice issues. Also, although a big man, he was not a physical player. I'm still not convince he fully deserve his 'lazy' tag, but I still have a biography to make on him, so we'll see what I can find.

If a player had the offensive resume of Drillon, alongside great ethics & defensive abilities, he would comfortably be taken in the mid-100's or somewhere along the line.

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02-21-2013, 09:23 AM
  #570
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
...so far? This is NOT a projection draft. One quarter of a year is one quarter of a year. No more. No "so far..."

What will be a decent pick at this point in ATD 2015 we are not to in the least consider. Plan ahead your shortlist for rounds 12-13 then if you wish.
Sorry to interrupt this rant but I did say that potentially by the time the ATD playoffs come around he would have 4 top 5s in both goals and assists.

I'm not giving him credit for those now. Even with 3 of each he has the peak offensive resume of players taken well ahead of him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
So Nik gets criticized for taking a 2 time maurice winner but it was fine to take Shea Weber a man who has 2 1st ASTs and really not much else...
Right. But Shea Weber being an upper level player for 4 years is much better than being an upper level player for 3.5 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Weber has a 6.5 year career and Best Defenseman Award at the Olympics in a gold-medal win against the world's best of his era, has two 1st team all-star selections versus' Stamkos' two 2nd team all-star selections and Weber plays a position with less depth and more picks already taken by far, D versus C.

And most of us thought the Weber pick sub-par I hope. So the Stamkos pick has even less lustre.
I'm not defending either pick because I tend to shy away from the current players with less than a half dozen good years but you have to admit there is a lot of credit given to older players for a couple of good years in comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I guess I should point out that I am not a fan of the Stamkos pick but I think ppl is a bit inconsistent when judging modern players.

Also Weber was the best defenceman of the WC not the olympics (Rafalski was the best defenseman in 2010) so no, I still dont see the wonder that is Weber...
I'm not a big fan of him going so early either but I agree with your point that there is a lot of inconsistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Also, even if we take Stamkos' current totals (without projection), is he all that different from a guy like Frank McGee, who only had a four year career and retired at 23?
Good question.

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02-21-2013, 09:40 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I don't think I've tried to hide the flaws in Drillon's game, not the others. We pretty much all agree that Drillon is a tremendous goalscorer and offensive force. He was a speedy skater that had some tremendous playoff years. However, he was poor defensively, was benched in the 1942 Stanley Cup final and had off-ice issues. Also, although a big man, he was not a physical player. I'm still not convince he fully deserve his 'lazy' tag, but I still have a biography to make on him, so we'll see what I can find.

If a player had the offensive resume of Drillon, alongside great ethics & defensive abilities, he would comfortably be taken in the mid-100's or somewhere along the line.
agree

you are very honest about your players, maybe more than anyone else, actually. i was just explaining to mb why drillon's reputation suffers and why he is not picked higher.

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02-21-2013, 09:43 AM
  #572
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I'll take Pat Egan, D
Nice pick. Very good offensively and very tough. I found evidence that he was decent defensivly, but his all-star record doesn't seem to match how good I think he was...

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02-21-2013, 09:53 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i am legitimately curious how drillon was way ahead of stamkos offensively. i ask b/c one of the reasons i picked stamkos is b/c i thought of drillon and then thought of stamkos (similar to my thinking of kerr and then andreychuk).

if it is b/c of longevity, i would think several players would be close to drillon.
Longevity has to be adjusted somewhat for era, and Drillon did lose prime years to the war. It is not entirely clear how we should value his war years, but Gordie was only 29 when he went into the service. He may not be "way ahead", though, you're right. I must admit, I hadn't even considered Stamkos at the time I made that statement. Now please, stop making me defend Gordie Drillon.

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02-21-2013, 09:53 AM
  #574
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So Nik gets criticized for taking a 2 time maurice winner but it was fine to take Shea Weber a man who has 2 1st ASTs and really not much else...
Not with me. When I took him at 418 last year it was March and Weber was obviously on his way to a top 5 Norris year and taking that into account Sturm was able to convince everyone he was worthy of pick 418. Now he's going almost 100 picks higher for no reason at all and the same guys who said he was not 418 worthy are fine with an almost 100 pick jump to 324 for no reason at all. This is a guy with 4 relevant years, no Norris, and no Cup going before Dave Burrows, Neil Colville, and Brian Rafalski. I don't think so. This is the ATD, not the four year draft.

Off topic I am fine with Stamkos as a 4th line center though.

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02-21-2013, 09:57 AM
  #575
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Nice pick. Very good offensively and very tough. I found evidence that he was decent defensivly, but his all-star record doesn't seem to match how good I think he was...
Your bio was very solid. I figure he went a bit high last year, and a drop of about 50 picks was appropriate. He's a RHS and fits in with Conacher on my 2nd pairing, so even if he doesn't have that defensive prowess, he's got support.

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