I think you have to be realsitic about expectations. Silfverberg doesn't have Zibanejad's draft pedigree, but he has developed leaps and bounds since the draft. Even in his draft year he was viewed as a potential star, but there were a lot of questions. He gets better every year and he has shown the ability to dominate at various levels. (SEL -> AHL) He just takes time and is a slow starter (even in his MVP season last year he started pretty slowly). Every game you watch Silfverberg with Ottawa you can see that he is improving and catching onto things.
The biggest issue I have with Zibanejad is that I don't see improvement -- even from last year he looks like essentially the same player. I know he's had injury issues and problems, but I just don't see the elite upside in Zibanejad. He has never dominated any level of hockey (even the WJC...golden goal aside...he was outplayed by a lot of younger players where he should have had a big physical advantage).
Personally I don't think that Zibanejad has higher upside than a 2nd line winger. Maybe that's just me. If you can provide some kind of evidence that points elsewhere besides 'he has nice tools' that would really be encouraging.
I'm much more optimistic about our 1st round pick last year in Ceci. I think last year was just not a good draft year for us.
Too be fair, there were like 4 players younger then him at the tournament, he was only 18
One in Sweden last year, one when he came to the AHL during the playoffs and never played(which may have been still from the firsts not really talked about) and one this year (but also may have been lingering from last year).
All I can tell you is there are 3 times separated by months at a time were he had concussion symptoms.
According to Murray Zib didn't have a concussion last year, sounded like it was misdiagnosed though Murray didn't come out and say it.
When the symptoms hadn't cleared up to start this season he was sent to the same doctor that Crosby had gone to and was diagnosed with the same injury.
So it was the neck that was the problem apparently.
According to Murray Zib didn't have a concussion last year, sounded like it was misdiagnosed though Murray didn't come out and say it.
When the symptoms hadn't cleared up to start this season he was sent to the same doctor that Crosby had gone to and was diagnosed with the same injury.
So it was the neck that was the problem apparently.
I don't know why people have such a tough time understanding this... Go to the doctor and tell them it hurts somewhere. See how many times you have to go back before they diagnose the actual problem.
People aren't cars, you can't just plug in to a computer and run a diagnostic to find the issue.
I think all this heigtened sensitivity around concussion has everybody terrified of them, when in reality if you see a guy take a blindside hit thats not directly to the head.. and his head whips around... then he might have whiplash! Its not a made up injury lol
as for trades, Flordia currently has 3 goaltenders up with the club. Toronto is looking for a veteran goaltender to take the backup spot. I can see one of their guys (theodore or clemmenson) moved to Toronto, leaving them with Markstrom with the big club. Next year it'll likely be just Markstrom and they'll need some insurance... Bishop maybe?
Last edited by sens2k9: 02-21-2013 at 09:45 AM.
Reason: Added actual trade rumour portion
Well, if that's how you honestly see it, it's clear that what we have here is a fundamental difference in how we see Martin Havlat. If difference of opinions were measured in distance, one of us would be in the "Berkley" area of San Francisco, and the other in orbit around Neptune.
Honestly, we're probably so far from each others' opinion that it would be pointless to debate it further. We can just agree to disagree, and move on.
Havlat was a good young player with loads of potential, unfortunately his injury history, contract disputes, and stated desire to hit free agency got him a ticket out of Ottawa.
He played well in Chicago, however his injury history continued, except in 08/09 where he was the Hawks MVP. However his never ending contract disputes continued and got him sent to Minny.
Since his trade from Chicago his production has never reached the 08/09 level, of course hampered by another injury in 10/11.
I was a huge fan of Havlat and believe he would definitely be an upgrade on Latendresse.
However given his history and declining performance, I'm not sure it would be a wise move to bring him back to Ottawa.
Too be fair, there were like 4 players younger then him at the tournament, he was only 18
I have reached the conclusion that people are throwing out everything and anything hoping something sticks to justify their opinions on Zibanejad.
The Sens need top six wingers, ideally a top six power forward. The only player in the Sens organization that has these attributes and potential is Zibanejad.
Now if players like these were easily obtainable in the NHL, then I could understand the desire to trade him at every opportunity, but they aren't.
So I can fully understand Murray offering Zibanejad in a trade for Nash, as it definitely would have filled a critical need and accelerated the rebuild.
However it doesn't follow Zib should be thrown in every deal that follows unless it addresses the Sens most glaring need.
What do people consider a second liner production wise? Apparently Foligno wasnt one, and he had 47 points, so is it like 55-60?
And the thing I worry most about Zib is not the concussions, or skill set, its the hockey sense. I just don't think you can really improve that aspect (too much, I think as you get older it naturally improves a little)
Zib is frustrating to watch in that he shoots wristers from the blue line on 2 on 2's, 3 on 2's, etc.
He shoots when he should hold on to the puck or pass, and passes when he should shoot.
Having said that I still think he could be a 25-25 player on his skill set alone. I just think he will be one of those guys who is a pretty good player, but always leaves you underwhelmed like Fisher.
I have reached the conclusion that people are throwing out everything and anything hoping something sticks to justify their opinions on Zibanejad.
Strome, Hamilton, Collberg, etc. Those are just off the top of my head. It's not something being 'just thrown out'. As before I tend to back up what I say with evidence.
Quote:
The Sens need top six wingers, ideally a top six power forward. The only player in the Sens organization that has these attributes and potential is Zibanejad.
What is this based on? Noesen, Greening and Stone all have that potential. I'm not saying that Zibanejad can't become that player at all, but he's shown concerns; though a point in his favour is that a lot of power forward types have taken longer to develop.
Quote:
Now if players like these were easily obtainable in the NHL, then I could understand the desire to trade him at every opportunity, but they aren't.
Nobody is looking to trade him at every opportunity (at least I'm not). Zibanejad is arguably the biggest bargaining chip we are willing to part with because of his attributes. He's being offered up for the right opportunities (O'Reilly, Nash and Yandle...maybe Perry? I believe) not any and all. It's not like we are actively shopping Zibanejad -- we are using him as a piece to try and get a better, young player.
According to Murray Zib didn't have a concussion last year, sounded like it was misdiagnosed though Murray didn't come out and say it.
When the symptoms hadn't cleared up to start this season he was sent to the same doctor that Crosby had gone to and was diagnosed with the same injury.
So it was the neck that was the problem apparently.
Didn't realize this, that doctor is a family friend. Not that anyone cares, just didn't realize that it was him that helped Zibanejad.
Ian Mendes @ian_mendes
Alfredsson says he's "flattered" that other teams might be interested in trading for him. But he's completely focused on staying in Ottawa.
Strome, Hamilton, Collberg, etc. Those are just off the top of my head. It's not something being 'just thrown out'. As before I tend to back up what I say with evidence.
What is this based on? Noesen, Greening and Stone all have that potential. I'm not saying that Zibanejad can't become that player at all, but he's shown concerns; though a point in his favour is that a lot of power forward types have taken longer to develop.
Nobody is looking to trade him at every opportunity (at least I'm not). Zibanejad is arguably the biggest bargaining chip we are willing to part with because of his attributes. He's being offered up for the right opportunities (O'Reilly, Nash and Yandle...maybe Perry? I believe) not any and all. It's not like we are actively shopping Zibanejad -- we are using him as a piece to try and get a better, young player.
All those guys are 93' births aside from Collberg, the same a Zib. Unless you consider a month or two a difference. They all have the same amount of development years.
I just do for not understand the hype of O'Reilly because really the asking price is to high and Murray is smarter then that.
Who ever gets him is asking for trouble because he is demanding money to what he has not earned yet. Let him sit at home and do nothing because he is not getting what he wants.
I should clarify my stance on Zibanejad because re-reading I feel like I'm misrepresenting myself.
I like Zibanejad as a prospect. I like him a lot. I think he has all the tools to be a fierce winger for the Senators. I'm worried about the developmental path he is taking right now though. I think he's been rushed to every level, possibly because of his tools, because he's never had the opportunity to be that go-to guy and really flourish as an offensive player. I'm worried that he's not progressing and filling out his offensive potential, or if he is that it's being stunted.
Ultimately I love the potential upside that Zibanejad will bring, but I am being guarded against getting my expectations too high for him because I don't see the hockey intelligence yet. Maybe he's young and learning a lot and having to adjust to a lot because of his career path so far -- but if the opportunity arises to move him for someone that has a similar upside but is more of a sure thing I will do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomt2309
I just do for not understand the hype of O'Reilly because really the asking price is to high and Murray is smarter then that.
Who ever gets him is asking for trouble because he is demanding money to what he has not earned yet.
It's all just speculation. We don't know what he's asking for. The logical thing to assume right now is that he just doesn't want to play for Colorado.
So when there is tough times on a team he would rather bail and not use his so called skill to show case on maturity?
I am lost on his stance, it kinda brings me back to the Lindros era, but a little differend because O'Reilly played a few games with the big boys.
For real when times are tough on any other team would he do the same thing, makes shy away from players that are selfish like that. Me thought and not Team aspect.
And once again Zibanejad is in trade proposals. He came into the league had 5 good games and everyone was saying don't trade him. He's missed a lot of good opportunities - lets say he scored 2 of those - suddenly he's just under 0.5 ppg and no one wants to trade him. In 2 of the 3 games i've gone to this year Zibanejad has been Ottawa's most dangerous forward. Give him time.
People would have a much different opinion of him if he was playing major junior. And yes he would score a lot of goals in junior - his shot is probably above average in the NHL.
And once again Zibanejad is in trade proposals. He came into the league had 5 good games and everyone was saying don't trade him. He's missed a lot of good opportunities - lets say he scored 2 of those - suddenly he's just under 0.5 ppg and no one wants to trade him. In 2 of the 3 games i've gone to this year Zibanejad has been Ottawa's most dangerous forward. Give him time.
People would have a much different opinion of him if he was playing major junior. And yes he would score a lot of goals in junior - his shot is probably above average in the NHL.
I don't recall him ever being ottawas most dangerous forward but I guess that's my opinion.
And I don't think his shot is above average. Yes he's got a rocket one timer but until he can start parlaying that into goals its essentially useless. Alfies one timer, although not nearly as hard as zibbys, is above average because he can pick his spots with it and bury. And yes, I'm aware he scored a beauty one timer in pre season last year but as the saying goes, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. But hey, who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong here. Let's hope.
I don't recall him ever being ottawas most dangerous forward but I guess that's my opinion.
And I don't think his shot is above average. Yes he's got a rocket one timer but until he can start parlaying that into goals its essentially useless. Alfies one timer, although not nearly as hard as zibbys, is above average because he can pick his spots with it and bury. And yes, I'm aware he scored a beauty one timer in pre season last year but as the saying goes, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. But hey, who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong here. Let's hope.
He has taken probably 5 one-timers in the NHL, one went in, another hit the crossbar. The only problem with his shot is the spots he picks to shoot. Instead of driving wide, or slowing the play down inside the blueline he takes a dragging wrist-shot on his off-wing. That is what drives me crazy. He hasn't had many shots from prime places.
O'Reilly isn't a Senators, yet? Colour me surprised.
Not sure if serious, but I think all trades require parties to pass a physical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Hanson
I don't recall him ever being ottawas most dangerous forward but I guess that's my opinion.
And I don't think his shot is above average. Yes he's got a rocket one timer but until he can start parlaying that into goals its essentially useless. Alfies one timer, although not nearly as hard as zibbys, is above average because he can pick his spots with it and bury. And yes, I'm aware he scored a beauty one timer in pre season last year but as the saying goes, even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. But hey, who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong here. Let's hope.
I would say his shot is better than everyone on the team not named Spezza, Karlsson, Alfredsson, Silfverberg or Turris. And I would argue that shots that create rebounds are far greater than useless, but I'll agree that he hasn't been using his shot as well as he could.
When Ceci is ready in a couple years. Slide him into the RS where he belongs (i think) and move whichever guy back over to the LS (weircoch or JBO)
that is a huge mobile and physical defence. id rather than than Ryan O'Reilly.
Feaster, is that you?
Jesus, what an awful trade proposal lol. And I'm not even against adding Bouwmeester. Bishop and a 3rd is more my line of thinking. Calgary probably wouldn't do that though, so pass.
Ian Mendes @ian_mendes
Alfredsson says he's "flattered" that other teams might be interested in trading for him. But he's completely focused on staying in Ottawa.
When Ceci is ready in a couple years. Slide him into the RS where he belongs (i think) and move whichever guy back over to the LS (weircoch or JBO)
that is a huge mobile and physical defence. id rather than than Ryan O'Reilly.
I'm sorry, guy. I don't usually comment of people's trade proposals, but this is absolutely awful... A potential young, top six power forward for a deteriorating defenceman? On a contender, Jay-Bo is probably a #4 D, even that may be stretching it. In a couple years when we're hopefully a contender, he won't be what he is today. Admittedly, he seems to be having a decent season on a bad Calgary team, but he is not worth what you are proposing - a potential future core player for a guy we might get a couple years out of.
I would say his shot is better than everyone on the team not named Spezza, Karlsson, Alfredsson, Silfverberg or Turris. And I would argue that shots that create rebounds are far greater than useless, but I'll agree that he hasn't been using his shot as well as he could.
I completely agree, when he starts hitting the net and creating rebounds with his shot, that's extremely effective. So far, he hasn't. Basically all I'm saying, and I'm sure most people will agree with me, is that if his shot is his greatest asset, then he's got to start using it more effectively. That goes for everybody right now though. When we are struggling to create offence, guys going high and wide is unacceptable to me
