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02-21-2013, 07:17 AM
  #151
Mats86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
With the emergence of Gallagher and Eller and the building efficiency of White as a fourth liner, I wonder if Habs should think of trading Gionta.

Here's my humble toughts :

1- Gionta isn't really efficient since 2 years now. Not dominant at all in any aspect of the game.
2- Gionta could bring a good return come the trade deadline because he still has value for a team going all the way (veteran, leadership, playoffs experience) or for a young team thinking they may win it all.
3- Trading Gionta wouldn't be a tanking move because he's replaceable, and it would still be a move to help the team for the future depending on what comes back.

I would contemplate the same thing for Cole, but not for both; Habs still need veteran presence. But Cole, the way he's playing, doesn't have the same value right now, and I do think he will turns things around, if not this year then next year.

What do you guys think about that?
His line is going pretty good...you are making too big a thing out of it. Gionta has a NM contract so I imagine he will be here until end of next season as about 95% sure Kaberle be the second buyout this summer.

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02-21-2013, 09:15 AM
  #152
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Probably just me....but I prefer people trying to find solution how to improve the team WHILE WE'RE WINNING, instead of wanting to fire everybody the next time we'll lose 6-2. But I guess in here, people prefer reactionary threads instead...much more spectacular.

And yes, Gionta is a reason why we win. 1 reason. Guess what though...so is Gallagher. And yet, we are still winning without him. And that's what people have the most trouble with in this board. It's always either black or white. In no way am I saying that Gionta is finished, if so show me where. I'm saying to START reducing his minutes. To stop playing him as if he's REALLY top 6. We have better options on the PP also. Are people really convinced that Plekanec, Pacioretty, DD, Gallagher, Galchenyuk and Bourque aren't better options on a PP? And note, I'm even not talking about Cole. And people could even add Eller to a certain extent. And others might EVEN consider Prust and making him work in front of the goalie.
I fully support that (the bolded part; this board is unbearable after a loss!) but I fail to understand how someone can take a look at Plekanec’s line, see its strong two ways play, the quality of competition they are facing, the complementary input each player is providing to the line, the fact that they scored 44,4% (16/36) of the total of goals scored by forwards, 87,5% (7/8) of the PP goals scored by forwards (2 by Gionta)... and then go on the record with "... he's hurting us..." or "... he's playing like a charlatan..."!

Basically, our line of vets is taking care of our opponent’s top line and then the 3 other lines are giving us the edge. In a team with no super star (but with plenty of depth and a good mix of players) upfront, that’s a good recipe. The only guy I can see taking Gionta’s spot alongside Plekanec is Eller but that would create a hole elsewhere: Eller is a big reason why our bottom lines usually are outplaying our opponent’s bottom lines. Because we have no super star upfront, putting all our eggs in the same basket (putting Eller with Plekanec and Bourque for instance) would not be a viable strategy: no way we can out power the Crosby and Saint-Louis if this world.

Plekanec is our best player upfront and we need him firing on all cylinders. Our best chance to make it happen is to give him regular wingers. Long story short: don’t touch our best line, all vets, all business.


PS Gionta is in a “slump” but, thus far, he scored the same amount of goals than Pacioretty and Eller... combined. Just saying.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 02-21-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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02-21-2013, 09:26 AM
  #153
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by CTHabsfan View Post
Gotta love these, "I'm smart enough to realize player X sucks, but know that there are GMs out there who are dumb enough to give a good return to the Canadiens in exchange for player X", threads.
That was absolutly not the initial proposition of this thread. I personnaly never state that gionta was sucking, and I just presupposed that some GMs may like his intangibles enough in a Cup run to give an interesting return in a trade. It's all pretty far from your assessment.

I'm starting to be sick to read so much "you don't know hockey...", "that's plain stupid...", and other direct or indirect insults every time there is a discussion on this board.

There are solid arguments in this thread, both ways. Why not keeping it at that?

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02-21-2013, 09:28 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by gunnerdom View Post
I'm with you on this. I don't understand what the problem is.
Nobody talks about a "problem". The topic is about the possibility of a hockey move.

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02-21-2013, 09:31 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
You guys are defending Gionta for the weakest of reasons.

The point is simple: He's not physical, he's not skilled and he's not producing well. Having watched all his games I can also say that he's holding our main offensive line back and exhausting them with his inability to recover pucks in his own lane. He's been atrocious on the powerplay as well.

Not complaining until we start losing is classic bi-polar Habs fan behaviour and I won't engage in it - we're a winning team and we need to hold our players accountable. Gionta has great work ethic and he knows as well as any that his production has severely declined*. That said I don't think it's in the best interests of the organization to award foresight with PP time and top6 minutes. And he's not strong enough for the bottom6 either AND he's paid 5m a year. Kaberle aside, Gionta is #2 with a bullet as the next buy-out worthy skater with his declining performance.

Given that he's paid like a scoring winger, he's played as a scoring winger (with #1 centre and massive PP time) and he's treated like a scoring winger - I'm going to call him a charlatan until he bloody well performs like a scoring winger.

Acting like I'm the one who's goofy for being critical of an obvious weak-link during a win-streak is classic "loser fan" behaviour. Gionta hasn't done much of anything this year and it's about damn time the heat is raised on him.

Edit:* what I mean to say is not that his ppg has declined but his honest production, his involvement in executing plays and scoring and general positive hockey.
Amen.

Especially at the bolded part. People are far too busy floating on air to be objective and proactive in trying to fix issues with the line up no matter how big or small.

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02-21-2013, 09:39 AM
  #156
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After reading all the valid arguments in this thread, I do realize the impact Gionta may have on this team. That said, I'm still convince the Habs are few key players away from being real Cup Contenders. And since nobody in the propect pool may be able to fix that (except maybe Tinordi), I do think Gionta should be trade at the deadline.

1- Not the hardest to replace short term, even if he's still valuable.
2- Would give free space under the cap (which will be lower next year).
3- Could net an interesting return.

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02-21-2013, 09:58 AM
  #157
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Gallagher's continuing emergence is starting to make Gionta somewhat redundant on our team. The truth is that Gionta is no longer a top-six forward in this league (in my opinion, he hasn't been one for at least 2 seasons now), and he should really be moved off the first line and taken off the PP. He has never been great at linking up with his linemates, and now that he's no longer able to score goals at the same rate, he really does bring down a line offensively. That being said, he's still quite good defensively, and I have no problem with him as a captain, so I think he can still be an excellent 3rd line winger who gets lots of PK time.

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02-21-2013, 10:08 AM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
With the emergence of Gallagher and Eller and the building efficiency of White as a fourth liner, I wonder if Habs should think of trading Gionta.

Here's my humble toughts :

1- Gionta isn't really efficient since 2 years now. Not dominant at all in any aspect of the game.
2- Gionta could bring a good return come the trade deadline because he still has value for a team going all the way (veteran, leadership, playoffs experience) or for a young team thinking they may win it all.
3- Trading Gionta wouldn't be a tanking move because he's replaceable, and it would still be a move to help the team for the future depending on what comes back.

I would contemplate the same thing for Cole, but not for both; Habs still need veteran presence. But Cole, the way he's playing, doesn't have the same value right now, and I do think he will turns things around, if not this year then next year.

What do you guys think about that?
i'm perfectly fine with gionta. he is a bit cold now, but he hasn't played for more than a year.

besides, the habs don't have any superstar fowards and their main strenght is scoring depth. there is a big chance that plekanec, gallagher, galchenyuk and bourque will cool off at some point and it's important to have other guys who can put up some points. gionta is pretty good playoff performer, as well, and i don't see any reason to trade him.


Last edited by billy piton: 02-21-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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02-21-2013, 10:30 AM
  #159
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With the money saved on Kaberle (buy out this summer) and a possible trade of Gionta, I would love the Habs to sign a guy like Clowe next summer (I read he's UFA).

If you tell me now that trading Gionta would net a 4th second round draft pick this summer and the singing of Ryan Clowe, I say Habs will be closer to being a cup contender in 2 years. So I'm all for it. But of course, it's just speculation.

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02-21-2013, 10:39 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
he shouldn't be a top 6 of a top team in the conference. If so, it does mean that we are not a top team and we're about to know it.
i think you are overestimating other teams top 6.

let see:

gionta 16 games, 3 goals, 5 assists

other teams top six forwards production:

chicago
kane 22 pts
toews 15
hossa 14
sharp 14
bolland 7
bickell 7


anaheim
selanne 15
getzlaf 15
koivu 14
ryan 13
perry 10 (only two assists more tan gionta)
winnik 9

penguins
crosby 25
malkin 20
kunitz 19
neal 16
dupuis 12
sutter 7

devils
elias 19
clarkson 16
kovy 15
gionta 7
henrique 6 (11 games, tho)
bernier 5
zajac 5

canucks
daniel 16
henrik 14
raymond 9
burrows 8
kassian 7
hansen 7

etc.

so, even on the cold streak, gionta would be still be top 6 production-wise on the vast majority of top teams.

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02-21-2013, 11:44 AM
  #161
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Where did I write that these stats are the only thing that matters?

They're part of the package, that's all, I wasn't trying to write the most comprehensive argument of all time, only one succint and valid point.

Colby Armstrong on a 5-year deal? Thank you for the non-sequitur. FYI even if they were equal (and they're not) we would only add 1 year to Armstrong this offseason, as Gionta will have 1 year left.

ETA: Where did I write that Gionta is untouchable?
You wrote "adjust your expectations" solely based on those 2 stats you're giving us. And you have an excuse in his point total based on the opposition while it didn't stop Plekanec to do his thing not solely on points but how he's playing. And then, most of my post is based on exagerration (5-year contract, untouchable and so on), solely based on the fact that I hate to see people now solely relying on Corsi and Co to prove a point AS IF it was the only think that matters. If true, if we take the same 2 stats you are giving us, it means that both Moen and Armstrong are better than the rest of the forwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
PS Gionta is in a “slump” but, thus far, he scored the same amount of goals than Pacioretty and Eller... combined. Just saying.
Based on the fact that Eller has played so little time and that Pacioretty was playing with the worst line of the team, I say that both are doing Ok....Gionta is playing on the most succesful line of the team, mostly based on Plekanec extraordinairy play and Bourque resurgence and goal scoring. Gionta is no slouch....but I predict we can do better even amongst the forwards we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billy piton View Post
i think you are overestimating other teams top 6.
In a world where we rely on the production of everybody based on the fact that we don't have 25-point superstars in a lineup.....I would hope that if we are a top team in the conference, that our top 6 would have to have more points within a top 6. And not only that, but I do think that we HAVE other options on the 3rd line that should have Gionta's icetime instead and we wouldn't be too far off as far as quality of the team. Again, not saying, he sucks, not saying he's the worst hockey player on the planet, just saying that you need to recognize when a player is going down and when other players on a team are ready to take more and are on their way up...but you actually have to let them be on their way up. When Galchenyuk plays more minutes he actually becomes....better. The more Eller plays, despite his questionable IQ at time, the more confident and better he looks. You want to stick Gionta on a 3rd line, remove his PP time and get him some PK time? I say, it's a deal. In no way, does that mean that I want him out.

Besides, I believe Cole is WAY more a "problem" 'cause Gionta is not even a problem. But this is a Gionta topic...

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02-21-2013, 11:50 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You have to cut the guy some slack in terms of the stats.

1-he is playing against the toughest opponents on the team
2-he hadn't played a game in over a year
3-he didn't get any games in Europe like some and no preseason
4-his stats are not far off what they should be...what I would normally expect is about 3 more goals, his assists are about on par. So let's start threads about a guy needing to be out of the top 6 despite working his tail off, being a great leader/example and being good defensively because he is 3 goals off what he should be coming off a 1 year layoff with no preseason...brilliant!
I think it is time to put the one-year layoff reason to bed. We are now 15 games and almost two months into the season. I am with Whitesnake on this one. Gionta is not a bad player but he's not the player he was five years ago either. As far as the stats go, I haven't been looking at them... I have been watching his play and I think it has slipped. The best thing that could happen is for him to prove me wrong.

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02-21-2013, 11:55 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You have to cut the guy some slack in terms of the stats.

1-he is playing against the toughest opponents on the team
2-he hadn't played a game in over a year
3-he didn't get any games in Europe like some and no preseason
4-his stats are not far off what they should be...what I would normally expect is about 3 more goals, his assists are about on par. So let's start threads about a guy needing to be out of the top 6 despite working his tail off, being a great leader/example and being good defensively because he is 3 goals off what he should be coming off a 1 year layoff with no preseason...brilliant!
What was the reason when after his 1st season, he had the same number of points....in 20ish more games? What was the reason when the season after that prior to his injury, he was going on a even less productive season? And again, working your tail off, being a great leader and good defensively...I'd take that any day of the week on a 3rd line.

I just think he will not improve. That he's on his way down while other players we have in the lineup that doesn't get his icetime are on their way up and we could be an even better team if we'd used them more. That's all.

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02-21-2013, 12:13 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
What was the reason when after his 1st season, he had the same number of points....in 20ish more games? What was the reason when the season after that prior to his injury, he was going on a even less productive season? And again, working your tail off, being a great leader and good defensively...I'd take that any day of the week on a 3rd line.

I just think he will not improve. That he's on his way down while other players we have in the lineup that doesn't get his icetime are on their way up and we could be an even better team if we'd used them more. That's all.
Even if he is now a good 3rd line player. And will never again be more than
that. We don't have to put our three best players one one line, then players
four through six on the next line, and so forth. That combination on plekanec's
line is competing well against other top lines. I'm not sure that would be the
case with someone other that Gionta in that spot. So maybe this is where we
get the most for the 5mil. cap space.

And that doesn't mean he can't be moved if a better option comes up.
Or if we got to trade him for a good return.

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02-21-2013, 12:34 PM
  #165
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post

(...)

Based on the fact that Eller has played so little time and that Pacioretty was playing with the worst line of the team, I say that both are doing Ok....Gionta is playing on the most succesful line of the team, mostly based on Plekanec extraordinairy play and Bourque resurgence and goal scoring. Gionta is no slouch....but I predict we can do better even amongst the forwards we have.



In a world where we rely on the production of everybody based on the fact that we don't have 25-point superstars in a lineup.....I would hope that if we are a top team in the conference, that our top 6 would have to have more points within a top 6. And not only that, but I do think that we HAVE other options on the 3rd line that should have Gionta's icetime instead and we wouldn't be too far off as far as quality of the team. Again, not saying, he sucks, not saying he's the worst hockey player on the planet, just saying that you need to recognize when a player is going down and when other players on a team are ready to take more and are on their way up...but you actually have to let them be on their way up. When Galchenyuk plays more minutes he actually becomes....better. The more Eller plays, despite his questionable IQ at time, the more confident and better he looks. You want to stick Gionta on a 3rd line, remove his PP time and get him some PK time? I say, it's a deal. In no way, does that mean that I want him out.

Besides, I believe Cole is WAY more a "problem" 'cause Gionta is not even a problem. But this is a Gionta topic...
At the beginning of the season, I was hoping for 3. Moen – Eller – Gionta as our tough minutes eating line so, here and here alone (!), I agree with you. A 3rd line of Prust – Eller – Gionta would be great!

However Galchenyuk needs ice-time and sheltered minutes so we need to spread our forces on 4 lines. Playing Gionta on 3rd (Galchenyuk is not ready to assume top 2 lines duties and he can’t play on 4th because he needs TOI) with Galchenyuk in a sheltered role would be a waste of Gionta's sound two ways play imo. Right now Eller is a better player than 19 years old Galchenyuk but I totally understand why they kept him with the big club and mid/long terms, it will pay dividend... to the team, Galchenyuk and Eller.

When you wrote “... you actually have to let them be on their way up...”, I guess you were referring to Gionta “obstructing” the way to Eller, right? Well here I disagree again! Eller is growing right before our eyes and he is currently playing his best hockey since he joined us. His play on 3rd/4th often is the main reason why we win games: our bottom lines are better than most of our opponents’ bottom lines with Eller in the line up.

Long story short:

19 years old Galchenyuk is learning
Elller, another young player, is playing his best hockey since joining us
Plekanec’s line is doing a great job
The team is winning

I like the mix and depth upfront but I sure don’t think that everything is perfect. You are right: looking for ways to improve must be a continuous process. I just don’t think that Gionta is on top of the list of priorities. In fact, I think he isn't on the freakin' list!

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02-21-2013, 12:46 PM
  #166
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I think that most Habs fans have to take a chill pill here.

Most Habs fans either LOVE or HATE a player and have no middle ground. I am in a small group of fans who realizes that their is a middle ground.

This is Gionta's fourth season in Montreal. His PPG have been .754, .561, .484 and now .500.

He may not be the biggest point producer anymore and he may be small in stature. What he makes up for is his defensive play and his hustle and his heart. He plays on the top line that matches up against the star players in the Eastern conference.

Someone can look it up and I may be proven wrong here but I will say this statement. No team has ever been a third of the way into the season and sitting in first place in their conference and traded away their captain.

Now I will say that his best days are behind him but I want him on this team. Maybe next year at the trade deadline if we are not in the playoff picture then he could be traded. If not then I say he finishes off this and next year with the Habs and becomes a UFA.

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02-21-2013, 12:47 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Bolded is a prime example of relying to much on stats, and not enough on eyeball test.
My eyeballs tell me that whole line is playing well not just Bourque and Plekanec. It's not a small coincidence that MT has had that line together basically all year and changed the others many times.

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02-21-2013, 12:50 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Gallagher's continuing emergence is starting to make Gionta somewhat redundant on our team. The truth is that Gionta is no longer a top-six forward in this league (in my opinion, he hasn't been one for at least 2 seasons now), and he should really be moved off the first line and taken off the PP. He has never been great at linking up with his linemates, and now that he's no longer able to score goals at the same rate, he really does bring down a line offensively. That being said, he's still quite good defensively, and I have no problem with him as a captain, so I think he can still be an excellent 3rd line winger who gets lots of PK time.
That's BS. Gallagher can't play top line and hard minutes, that would be just plain dumb thing to do. So he doesn't make anybody redundant he is just effective as a 3rd liner given good matchups.

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02-21-2013, 12:51 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
My eyeballs tell me that whole line is playing well not just Bourque and Plekanec. It's not a small coincidence that MT has had that line together basically all year and changed the others many times.
Gionta makes no defensive mistakes, makes the right offensive decision(save for them slappa....) but he's really behind in the offensive side of things.

I'd say since this line is our primary shut down line we should maybe keep him there.

He's no better than Prust/Moen/Armstrong offensively.

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02-21-2013, 01:01 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
No **** but do you know what ASKING THE PLAYER TO WAIVE THE NTC MEANS????
That they can say "yes" or "no"... your point is? Gionta and Cole have the power in that regard.

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02-21-2013, 01:06 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post

You're arguments are invalid and I don't believe that you don't have ANY problem with Gio's game right now. You've got to be kidding me, the puck bounces off his stick every single time.
Do you even know what an invalid argument is? There is no flaw in his argument form, because it was stated as a subjective opinion. When it comes down to opinion, how could his premises be true while his conclusion be false? Before you rip on a guy, know what you're talking about.

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02-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's BS. Gallagher can't play top line and hard minutes, that would be just plain dumb thing to do. So he doesn't make anybody redundant he is just effective as a 3rd liner given good matchups.
That's BS? Hardly.

Neither of us really knows how Gallagher would handle playing top line and hard minutes, but he has the requisite speed and headiness to make the adjustment relatively quickly.

What we do know is that Gionta is a unidimensional offensive forward who has always struggled to set plays up for his linemates. That one dimension is crashing the net and scoring dirty goals, and he isn't doing that right now. So playing him on an offensive line with PP time is wasteful.

If Gallagher really is incapable to play hard minutes, then you could argue that we should keep Gionta in a top-six role for the time being, but there is no way you can argue that he deserves to be a fixture on the PP.

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02-21-2013, 01:10 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by bib View Post
Not to bring his wife into it, but her name is Harvest

Seriously though, he's a very 1 dimensional player. Better suited as a 3rd liner on this team.


I'd like to see him removed from the PP, but put on the PK. His mobility could be useful there.
????????????

You realize that the third line is generally a checking line; players are expected to be defensively responsible.

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02-21-2013, 01:12 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Gionta makes no defensive mistakes, makes the right offensive decision(save for them slappa....) but he's really behind in the offensive side of things.

I'd say since this line is our primary shut down line we should maybe keep him there.

He's no better than Prust/Moen/Armstrong offensively.
His numbers are down a bit, but no way in hell is he NOT better than Prust Moen Armstrong offensively.

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02-21-2013, 01:17 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
That's BS? Hardly.

Neither of us really knows how Gallagher would handle playing top line and hard minutes, but he has the requisite speed and headiness to make the adjustment relatively quickly.

What we do know is that Gionta is a unidimensional offensive forward who has always struggled to set plays up for his linemates. That one dimension is crashing the net and scoring dirty goals, and he isn't doing that right now. So playing him on an offensive line with PP time is wasteful.

If Gallagher really is incapable to play hard minutes, then you could argue that we should keep Gionta in a top-six role for the time being, but there is no way you can argue that he deserves to be a fixture on the PP.
It's not hard to figure out, when Galchenyuk and Gallagher play against top lines they struggle to get out of their own end. When they get easier matchups they put up points.

Gionta is the opposite of unidimensional, he can gelp the team without scoring goals. He works his bag off, is strong defensively, impeccable work ethic, very good leader and can play both special teams.

So far the only fixture on the PP is Markov, the rest is interchangeable.

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