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Have 09/10 BlackHawks had the deepest roster ever?

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Old
02-17-2013, 06:48 PM
  #51
Hoser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsbergForever View Post
All these players were picked fair and square over several drafts, without any special territorial rights coming into play. In 1969, the one year they did actually have this privilege, they decided to pick local boys Rejean Houle and Marc Tardif over Bobby Clarke, which was obviously a bad choice.
They also exercised this option in 1968, using the first two picks on Michel Plasse (a serviceable goalie) and Roger Belisle ("Who?" you ask). They also had the last-place Seals' first round pick and chose defenceman Jim Pritchard with the third overall pick; another wasted pick on a player who never played a game in the NHL.

Granted this was before the amateur draft really opened up. Only 24 players were taken in '68 and the best of them all was probably Curt Bennett.

Anywho, as you were saying the myth that the Canadiens held special territorial rights over all of the players in Quebec is just that: myth. Plenty of great francophone Quebeckers didn't play for the Canadiens (Perreault, Ratelle, etc.). They ended up with a great many Quebecois players because they scouted their own back yard very heavily and sponsored as many Quebec teams as they could. There was such a thing as French Canadian draft priority but the Habs used it precisely twice and chose, in all: Michel Plasse, Roger Belisle, Rejean Houle and Marc Tardif.

Plasse was dealt to the Blues before having played a game, was later reacquired, and then lost to the Scouts in the 1974 Expansion Draft.

Belisle never played a game in the NHL.

Houle played for Montreal for parts of 11 seasons but was by no means a star, his best campaign being a 30-goal, 58-pt one in '77-'78.

Tardif played with Montreal for a little over three seasons at the start of his career and ended up playing his best years in the WHA.

I, like you, would hardly call that a great advantage over the competition.


Last edited by Hoser: 02-17-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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Old
02-18-2013, 07:31 PM
  #52
double5son10
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Post-expansion, the 1972-73 Canadiens have to be in the discussion. HOFers in bold

Centers
Jacques Lemaire
Pete Mahovlich
Henri Richard
Chuck Lefley

Wingers
Frank Mahovlich
Yvon Cournoyer
Guy Lafleur
Marc Tardif *
Rejean Houle
Claude Larose
Murray Wilson
Jimmy Roberts
Steve Shutt
Chuck Arnason

Defense
Jacques Laperriere
Serge Savard
Guy Lapointe
Pierre Bouchard
Bob Murdoch
Larry Robinson
Dale Hoganson

Goalies
Ken Dryden
Michel Plasse
Wayne Thomas

*Tardif became the all-time WHA goal-scoring leader.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:27 AM
  #53
Chukcha
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Originally Posted by hardyvan123 View Post
on which teams exactly would this be a top line?

Ladd - bolland - versteeg
fla, wpg, wsh, cbj, tor, phx...

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02-21-2013, 12:20 PM
  #54
Burke the Legend
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The Hawks had a stacked team cuz of all the guys still basically on ELC or deeply discounted contracts. If you used to cap value of the team based on all the players who had signed extensions that would kick in July 1st a few weeks after their win, and over the next 13 months the team cap would actually be around 80 million I believe (maybe more I havent done the math), when the league cap was still 56 million I believe.

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02-21-2013, 01:41 PM
  #55
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Anaheim in 2007 isn't getting enough love. Their third line turned into their first within a year of winning that Cup.

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02-21-2013, 01:44 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
fla, wpg, wsh, cbj, tor, phx...
WSH would have Ovechkin or Backstrom on that line. Toronto would have Kessel. Phoenix would have Doan. That's just off the top of my head. Evander Kane would probably replace versteeg.

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02-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #57
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Ducks 2007 and Red Wings 2008 are easily the two best and deepest teams post-lockout.

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02-21-2013, 03:15 PM
  #58
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72 Habs, 82 Isles, 87 Oilers, 92 (or 93) Pens, 02 Wings, and arguably 06 Ducks all come to mind.

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02-21-2013, 03:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Ducks 2007 and Red Wings 2008 are easily the two best and deepest teams post-lockout.
The '06-07 Ducks had the 6th best goal differential that regular season. They played well in the playoffs but they're far from this legendary team that many consider them to be.

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02-21-2013, 03:31 PM
  #60
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Ducks 2007 and Red Wings 2008 are easily the two best and deepest teams post-lockout.
I definitely think the Hawks were the deepest team post lockout - 3 two-way lines, a 4th line centered by John Madden, Brian Campbell on the second pairing, etc. They were so deep, it was impossible to keep together with the salary cap. Their only weakness was in goal.

Wings were deep, but not as deep. Better goaltending though (Osgood sure came a long way from the 1990s). I don't think the Ducks were all that deep for a Cup winner - they basically rode 3 defensemen as hard as they could through the playoffs with Sean O'Donnell filling in the gaps, and barely used their 4th line.

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02-21-2013, 03:58 PM
  #61
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Does anyone remember their playoff lineup? I believe it was:

Byfuglien - Toews - Kane
Brouwer - Sharp - Hossa
Ladd - Bolland - Versteeg
Eager - Madden - Kopecky
Burish

Keith - Seabrook
Campbell - Hjalmarsson
Sopel - Hendry
Boynton

Niemi
Huet
This is mostly correct, but Kopecky played more on the 2nd line than Brouwer. From my memory, Brouwer played on the 1st line with Toews and Kane for the 1st round while Buff was back on D because Campbell was injured. After that, Brouwer's play fell off (probably partially because his father was very ill), and he was mostly a 4th liner. As I'm sure most remember, about halfway through the Finals Q took Buff off of the 1st line. He was also a major in-game line juggler...if the team wasn't generating a lot of offence he would start mixing up the 1st 3 lines, which is a testament to how deep that team was.

Someone earlier said Ladd-Bolland-Versteeg would be a 1st line on some teams...the number of teams for which that is true is probably very low, but I think they would be an above average 2nd line. So basically they had a high-end first line, an average to below average 1st line, an above average second line, and a high-end 4th line that year. Campbell was also probably the best #3 in the entire league. Madden and Sopel to supply some veteran wisdom and be PK specialists were also important pieces to that puzzle.

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02-21-2013, 04:32 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
The '06-07 Ducks had the 6th best goal differential that regular season. They played well in the playoffs but they're far from this legendary team that many consider them to be.
Because they lost their starting goaltender and best skater for one month. The same month.

During the injuries to Giguere and Pronger: 2-7-2; -9 goal differential
During the rest of the regular season: 46-13-12; +59 goal differential

That's why they beat the team with the highest goal differential (Ottawa +66; which was lower than Anaheim's pace with Pronger/Giguere) in five games, proving that writing them off historically because of goal differential is a little silly.

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02-21-2013, 05:46 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because they lost their starting goaltender and best skater for one month. The same month.

During the injuries to Giguere and Pronger: 2-7-2; -9 goal differential
During the rest of the regular season: 46-13-12; +59 goal differential

That's why they beat the team with the highest goal differential (Ottawa +66; which was lower than Anaheim's pace with Pronger/Giguere) in five games, proving that writing them off historically because of goal differential is a little silly.
Let's not pretend that none of the other teams in contention for this didn't suffer injuries. Anaheim lost a month of Pronger and Giguere, so what? Just from the same year, Ottawa lost comparable amounts of time from each of Spezza, Fisher, and Redden. Buffalo lost Tallinder for half the year, along with injuries to other important players like Lydman and Afinogenov. For Detroit it was Zetterberg, Kronwall, Schneider...

If the Ducks were half as deep as people claimed them to be, one would argue that losing two players (even ones as important as Giguere or Pronger) would not have significantly impaired them.

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02-21-2013, 06:06 PM
  #64
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To expand on this point, here are how the Ducks' injuries in '06-07 compare to two other frequently mentioned teams: the '09-10 Blackhawks and the '05-06 Senators. I mentioned all players with average TOI > 15 minutes who missed more than 10 games. For goalies I estimated.

2006-07 Ducks

J.S. Giguere (1 month? ~10-12 games?)
Chris Pronger (16 games)
Francois Beauchemin (11 games)
Todd Marchant (26 games)

Their core forward group of Selanne, McDonald, Pahlsson, Kunitz, and Getzlaf (and if you want to, you can include Penner and Perry) missed a total of 1 game.

2005-06 Senators

Dominik Hasek (February onward, probably ~20-25 games)
Zdeno Chara (11 games)
Wade Redden (17 games)
Chris Phillips (13 games)
Jason Spezza (14 games)
Martin Havlat (64 games)
Mike Fisher (14 games)

2009-10 Blackhawks
Brian Campbell (14 games)
Marian Hossa (25 games)
Dave Bolland (43 games)
Kim Johnsson (14 games)

EDIT: I think this makes a strong case for the '05-06 Sens being the deepest since the 04-05 lockout.

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02-22-2013, 10:24 AM
  #65
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how can a team with a third pair of sopel/hendry and niemi as the starting goalie be the deepest ever?

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02-22-2013, 10:06 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
I haven't seen a deeper roster ever. It was really impressive. Many players from that roster (even from bottom lines) are having bigger roles playing for other teams at present. Can any team ever be comparable in roster depth with them? And they still have an excellent roster despite all these squad losses!
The Kings last year had equal or better depth. Oh and the 02 Red Wings are the deepest team of the last 30 years and no one is even close to being close

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02-23-2013, 01:12 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Ducks 2007 and Red Wings 2008 are easily the two best and deepest teams post-lockout.
IMO the Red Wings 2008 were the most impressive Cup winner post lockout. The way they skated circles against a Pens team that dominated the playoffs before them, it looked like an ECHL team playing Canada's Olympic team. Though it became a little less lopsided after the first 2 games. Loved that team. Can't believe how much worse they looked with Hossa next year. Was it the Datsyuk injury that did them in?

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02-23-2013, 01:16 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
The '06-07 Ducks had the 6th best goal differential that regular season. They played well in the playoffs but they're far from this legendary team that many consider them to be.
I would venture to guess that they had the worst goal differential of the cup winners since the lockout too. Or close to it. I looked at the scores of their games and for the most part they weren't that much different from the mediocre scores of the Rangers last year, when they only scored more than 3 once. They won game 5 of the SC Finals 6-2, so people don't remember that that team had trouble scoring in the playoffs. They're overrated IMO because they're physical and fans love their physicality. I'd rank them 3rd after the Wings and Hawks post-lockout. Which is not an insult, but it seems most fans rank them first.

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02-23-2013, 01:51 AM
  #70
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Another thing that often gets over looked is that Kim Johnsson was injured the entire playoffs with a concussion. He was a solid top 4 defenseman and was playing great on the Hawks until his injury.

8 games, 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, +7, 12 hits was his statline in the short time he was a Hawk.

So the defense was really:
Keith-Seabrook
Campbell-Johnsson
Hjalmarsson-Sopel

but with Johnssons injury they had to improvise and had to use Jordan Hendry and Nick Boynton(picked off waivers).

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02-23-2013, 03:39 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I would venture to guess that they had the worst goal differential of the cup winners since the lockout too. Or close to it. I looked at the scores of their games and for the most part they weren't that much different from the mediocre scores of the Rangers last year, when they only scored more than 3 once. They won game 5 of the SC Finals 6-2, so people don't remember that that team had trouble scoring in the playoffs. They're overrated IMO because they're physical and fans love their physicality. I'd rank them 3rd after the Wings and Hawks post-lockout. Which is not an insult, but it seems most fans rank them first.
Not even close. Their differential was +50. The Kings were +15. And they didn't struggle to score in the playoffs; in the Western Conference playoffs, they were matched up against the 1st, 4th, and 5th best defensive teams in the league (GA). By comparison, Carolina/Detroit/Pittsburgh/Chicago didn't play any team in the top five, and Boston played just one. The Kings saw two top five teams and two more in the top ten, and similarly scored 57 in 20 to Anaheim's 58 in 21.

The goalies they shot against ranked 1st, 4th, 7th, and 8th in ES save percentage, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that they had "trouble" when they only had one series go longer than 5 games because nine skaters had double-digit points.

Anaheim had 15 regulars playing 10+ minutes to Chicago's 16 (protecting Thornton, May, DiPenta vs. Eager, Hendry, Burish), but Giguere/Bryzgalov vs. Niemi/Huet isn't too debatable, given their respective statuses at the time. Beginning a playoff without the starting goaltender is typically a death sentence, but Anaheim took a 3-1 lead with their backup in net. Chicago may be deeper at forward (especially because of the versatility of Byfuglien), but their goaltending was relatively poor - and at no point did we see Anaheim switching their lines around because the chemistry was never lost between its players.

Ranking them behind the Blackhawks in terms of talent/performance has been a losing argument on this forum every time it has come up since 2010, because you're basically taking the player responsible for Toews' and Byfuglien's struggles in the Finals (Pronger) and giving him the best defensive line between lockouts (Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer), a fast defenseman to take on the adjustments Quenneville made to exploit a speed game (Niedermayer), and placing them in front of a much better goaltender (Giguere).

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02-23-2013, 03:42 PM
  #72
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The 2002 Detroit Red Wings had a much deeper one

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02-23-2013, 04:22 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Can't believe how much worse they looked with Hossa next year. Was it the Datsyuk injury that did them in?
Lidstrom was injured too, and a bunch of lesser lights as well. The whole team was running on fumes by the Finals. And Hossa, while a great individual talent, didn't have any chemistry with any other top DRW players. All the physical tools you could ever want (and crazy strong wrists--he holds his stick like a sword!), but I for one was not impressed by his hockey sense at all.

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02-24-2013, 04:33 PM
  #74
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Not even close. As much as I hate the Habs I would say the 58-59 or 59-60 Canadiens were by far the best.

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02-24-2013, 04:49 PM
  #75
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1991/92 Penguins where amazingly deep (and swept my Hawks in the SCF).

Forwards:
Mario Lemieux
Jaromir Jagr
Joe Mullen
Mark Recchi
Ron Francis
Kevin Stevens
Rick Tocchet
Brian Trotteir

D-men:
Paul Coffey
Larry Murphy
Kjell Samuelsson
Ulf Samualsson

Goalie:
Tom Barrasso

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