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02-21-2013, 12:03 PM
  #351
Foppa2118
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post

His agency, with the full support of Camp O'Reilly. His father has not been involved in any of the negotiations.
Care to comment, or any idea how much he's been involved in Ryan's ear in this mess?

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02-21-2013, 12:07 PM
  #352
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If Baba O'Reilly is taking shots on Avs on Twitter and in crazy mails, assuming he is passively standing by while this happens would be naive.

He might not sit in the meetings, but it's kinda obvious who is referred to as the non-principal that has meddled in the negotiations.

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02-21-2013, 12:29 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
If Baba O'Reilly is taking shots on Avs on Twitter and in crazy mails, assuming he is passively standing by while this happens would be naive.

He might not sit in the meetings, but it's kinda obvious who is referred to as the non-principal that has meddled in the negotiations.
Fathers, sometimes it's tough to stand up to them...


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02-21-2013, 12:33 PM
  #354
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Fathers, sometimes it's tough to stand up to them...

Hmmmm, might have to save this for an avatar challenge...

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02-21-2013, 01:17 PM
  #355
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Freudian, I don't think O'Reilly's father is meddling with the process. I think he's just standing up for his son. I can appreciate a lot of what O'Reilly's father stands up for when it doesn't come to hockey. But, I think Ryan O'Reilly is definitely cut from the same cloth as his father. As well, to be honest, those comments by his father are a huge red flag for me. It's almost as if he has some narcissistic personality traits. By that, I mean tough, unyielding and inflexible. I knew a girl who was a lot like that and she was IMPOSSIBLE to negotiate with when she had her mind set on something. Bryan O'Reilly reminds me a lot of her.

Having said that, I think Avalanche management is pretty inflexibly too. We all know what Pierre Lacroix is like. But, the Avs have shown they are apt to some change. The signed Jones and PAP to deals that were not cheap. But, I think it's extremely important that they show some loyalty to Duchene for signing a bridge contract. With the way Duchene has been playing, O'Reilly does not deserve a cent more than Matt. I also would not want to do anything that would offend Duchene. He is my golden child on this team now.

So, in the end, you have two narcissistic type groups trying to come to an agreement and they come from two completely different perspectives. Good luck with that. But, going forward, I really have to wonder if O'Reilly really is a good team player or not. I know he is a rink rat and plays a great all around game. I will never forget telling a Jets scout two years ago that I believed O'Reilly would win the Selke Trophy one day. O'Reilly came in fourth in voting last season. But, if Ryan is as inflexible as I think he may be, I would want no part of him. Matt Duchene and his agent recognized that he needed to sign a bridge contract. He did it recognizing he needed to prove more. Moreover, he even said himself that he could not imagine holding out on the team. He is a team player. If O'Reilly were playing right now, we could be a much more difficult team to play against. Matt Duchene obviously cares about the direction of this team. I'm not sure that O'Reilly did. If that's the case, he should go.

But, trading O'Reilly is a monumental move for this franchise. Personal matters aside, he is a very important asset and the Avalanche cannot take any risks in screwing up a trade with him. If the Avs need to take two years to get good value back, then they must do it. This is a critical move for the franchise and we must come out on top if we truly want to move forward. I also would not be keen on packaging Barrie or Elliot with O'Reilly. Barrie is a smart player. Elliot looks physically stronger this year and you can tell he's got a lot of offensive potential. I really hate that the Avalanche have to go through this. I really hate we have to go through this. But, I hope the Avalanche get it right.

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02-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #356
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Fathers, sometimes it's tough to stand up to them...


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02-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #357
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I see this from a somewhat different perspective.

I don't think we "have" to come out of this with the perfect deal.

To me, we have a golden opportunity to turn what was a 2nd round pick into something much greater. It's not like all of our hope for the future has been centered on Ryan O'Reilly carrying us. That burden falls on Duchene's shoulders.

ROR was a diamond in the rough, so to speak. If we lose him for less than the optimal deal, we still get back more than what we put in -- a 2nd round pick. We could end up with a stud defenseman, a bust prospect, and a 2nd round pick. And we'd still have more than we started with. And we have been pretty lucky with 2nd round picks. For all we know, that 2nd rounder could turn out to be another ROR/Stastny type of player.

And if that line of thinking doesn't work, then here's another way to look at it. We're giving up our 3rd line Center. We'll get better than a 3rd line Center in return. Oh, I know he is better than a 3rd line Center, but that's what he is here. A great 3rd line Center.

Look at what we're giving up in terms of here and now, and the role he has on this team, instead of looking at the potential he has, and the role he will play on another team.

We will get back better than a 2nd round pick or a 3rd line Center.

No worries.

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02-21-2013, 01:44 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
I see this from a somewhat different perspective.

I don't think we "have" to come out of this with the perfect deal.

To me, we have a golden opportunity to turn what was a 2nd round pick into something much greater. It's not like all of our hope for the future has been centered on Ryan O'Reilly carrying us. That burden falls on Duchene's shoulders.

ROR was a diamond in the rough, so to speak. If we lose him for less than the optimal deal, we still get back more than what we put in -- a 2nd round pick. We could end up with a stud defenseman, a bust prospect, and a 2nd round pick. And we'd still have more than we started with. And we have been pretty lucky with 2nd round picks. For all we know, that 2nd rounder could turn out to be another ROR/Stastny type of player.

And if that line of thinking doesn't work, then here's another way to look at it. We're giving up our 3rd line Center. We'll get better than a 3rd line Center in return. Oh, I know he is better than a 3rd line Center, but that's what he is here. A great 3rd line Center.

Look at what we're giving up in terms of here and now, and the role he has on this team, instead of looking at the potential he has, and the role he will play on another team.

We will get back better than a 2nd round pick or a 3rd line Center.

No worries.
I agree with this. The biggest advantage of trading ROR for a defenseman is that it pushes our defenseman down. When EJ comes back and if we get someone else like MDZ or JJ our defense would actually look respectable.

ROR trade asset EJ
Hejda Barrie
Zanon Elliott

Even if the prospect we get busts having this would be worth it.

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02-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
I see this from a somewhat different perspective.

I don't think we "have" to come out of this with the perfect deal.

To me, we have a golden opportunity to turn what was a 2nd round pick into something much greater. It's not like all of our hope for the future has been centered on Ryan O'Reilly carrying us. That burden falls on Duchene's shoulders.

ROR was a diamond in the rough, so to speak. If we lose him for less than the optimal deal, we still get back more than what we put in -- a 2nd round pick. We could end up with a stud defenseman, a bust prospect, and a 2nd round pick. And we'd still have more than we started with. And we have been pretty lucky with 2nd round picks. For all we know, that 2nd rounder could turn out to be another ROR/Stastny type of player.

And if that line of thinking doesn't work, then here's another way to look at it. We're giving up our 3rd line Center. We'll get better than a 3rd line Center in return. Oh, I know he is better than a 3rd line Center, but that's what he is here. A great 3rd line Center.

Look at what we're giving up in terms of here and now, and the role he has on this team, instead of looking at the potential he has, and the role he will play on another team.

We will get back better than a 2nd round pick or a 3rd line Center.

No worries.
Wrong. We used a 2nd rounder and three years of money and time developing him into a top-tier player. In the long run, picks don't matter nearly as much as talent development. So the value in return for O'Reilly has to address the value lost, not only in the pick but in the vital role he played and the time/money spent in his development. I seriously don't see the opportunity to make this loss into something greater. I think the Avs lose out no matter what.

Shea Weber was a 2nd round pick. I think we can all agree that if he were traded there'd be little chance to parlay that into something greater unless it was on the level of a Lindros deal.

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02-21-2013, 02:13 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Wrong. We used a 2nd rounder and three years of money and time developing him into a top-tier player. In the long run, picks don't matter nearly as much as talent development. So the value in return for O'Reilly has to address the value lost, not only in the pick but in the vital role he played and the time/money spent in his development. I seriously don't see the opportunity to make this loss into something greater. I think the Avs lose out no matter what.

Shea Weber was a 2nd round pick. I think we can all agree that if he were traded there'd be little chance to parlay that into something greater unless it was on the level of a Lindros deal.
His opinion is not flat out wrong... Just because he has a different opinion towards it does not make it wrong.

Now I tend to agree that once a player is drafted there draft round has no bearing on them anymore, and its more about what the player becomes, but that doesn't make his opinion any less right.

I also somewhat agree with him, if we were to trade ROR for Kulikov or MDZ as the basis for deals, it would be a sign that we have taken ROR and increased his value to that of a Top draft pick or other young top talent. So we have done a good job with ROR and increased the value of that asset.

His opinion is just as correct as yours.

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02-21-2013, 02:30 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Wrong. We used a 2nd rounder and three years of money and time developing him into a top-tier player. In the long run, picks don't matter nearly as much as talent development. So the value in return for O'Reilly has to address the value lost, not only in the pick but in the vital role he played and the time/money spent in his development. I seriously don't see the opportunity to make this loss into something greater. I think the Avs lose out no matter what.

Shea Weber was a 2nd round pick. I think we can all agree that if he were traded there'd be little chance to parlay that into something greater unless it was on the level of a Lindros deal.
I get that, and that's why I added this perspective...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
And if that line of thinking doesn't work, then here's another way to look at it. We're giving up our 3rd line Center. We'll get better than a 3rd line Center in return. Oh, I know he is better than a 3rd line Center, but that's what he is here. A great 3rd line Center.

Look at what we're giving up in terms of here and now, and the role he has on this team, instead of looking at the potential he has, and the role he will play on another team.

We will get back better than a 2nd round pick or a 3rd line Center.

No worries.

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:34 PM
  #362
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More disturbing than great



Silfverberg is the better player of the two and Mika now has a pretty lenghty concussion history.
I followed Zibanejad since he was like 16 years old. Can maybe think of one concussion he had and that lasted for a week or so. Has he been concussed every week since coming to Ottawa or what?

I agree Silfverberg is better NOW, but he is also three years ahead of Zibanejad in the development process.

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02-21-2013, 02:38 PM
  #363
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I followed Zibanejad since he was like 16 years old. Can maybe think of one concussion he had and that lasted for a week or so. Has he been concussed every week since coming to Ottawa or what?

I agree Silfverberg is better NOW, but he is also three years ahead of Zibanejad in the development process.
Three concussions in the last 18 months if I'm not mistaken.

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02-21-2013, 02:38 PM
  #364
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His opinion is not flat out wrong... Just because he has a different opinion towards it does not make it wrong.

Now I tend to agree that once a player is drafted there draft round has no bearing on them anymore, and its more about what the player becomes, but that doesn't make his opinion any less right.

I also somewhat agree with him, if we were to trade ROR for Kulikov or MDZ as the basis for deals, it would be a sign that we have taken ROR and increased his value to that of a Top draft pick or other young top talent. So we have done a good job with ROR and increased the value of that asset.

His opinion is just as correct as yours.
Agree with Avsare1. Well said by all 3 of you. I tend to lean Bubba's direction on this though.

Value is subjective anyway. The Core of this team is pretty well in place, and getting pieces back in return for ROR that turn this core into a consistent contender is far more important than getting the pot of gold or nothing. Winning and being a contending team is an added value in itself.
As long as we can get reasonable value that addresses the team's needs for ROR, and we make the best use of those returns, I'll be happier than letting him sit forever or getting an equally or more talented player who does not make this team better.

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02-21-2013, 02:44 PM
  #365
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I get that, and that's why I added this perspective...
The problem with that perspective though is that most Avs fans tend to see the Avs either trading Stastny, or Stastny himself walking in free agency, so O'Reilly may be a 3rd line centre for now, but he's potentially our 2nd line centre in the very near future.

Also, I'm all for defining the role of centre's, 1st, 2nd and 3rd line guys but on this team, it's more of a 1A, 1B, 1C kind of rotation, especially since Landeskog and Downie played with O'Reily; that's not a 3rd line by any means. If anything, the McGinn/Stastny/Jones line was more of a 3rd line than that one, so he definitely isn't just a 3rd line centre on this team. Yes he goes up agains the opposition's top line every night but 3rd line centre's don't get the ice time that he gets

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02-21-2013, 02:56 PM
  #366
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The problem with that perspective though is that most Avs fans tend to see the Avs either trading Stastny, or Stastny himself walking in free agency, so O'Reilly may be a 3rd line centre for now, but he's potentially our 2nd line centre in the very near future.
I don't think so, by moving ROR I think it should pretty much set in stone Duchene and Stas as our 1-2 punch for the future.

The only place I can see Stastny wanting to go to besides Colorado would be St Louis. And I believe so long as the Avs don't ask him to take a huge pay cut he will probably stay here. He and Duchene have become pretty good friends I believe, and Stas likely realizes all the young talent here at this point.


If we offered Stastny something like 5 Years 27.5M for his next contract, I think he would take it. Especially if we can go out and make playoffs this year or at least next year.

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02-21-2013, 02:59 PM
  #367
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The problem with that perspective though is that most Avs fans tend to see the Avs either trading Stastny, or Stastny himself walking in free agency, so O'Reilly may be a 3rd line centre for now, but he's potentially our 2nd line centre in the very near future.

Also, I'm all for defining the role of centre's, 1st, 2nd and 3rd line guys but on this team, it's more of a 1A, 1B, 1C kind of rotation, especially since Landeskog and Downie played with O'Reily; that's not a 3rd line by any means. If anything, the McGinn/Stastny/Jones line was more of a 3rd line than that one, so he definitely isn't just a 3rd line centre on this team. Yes he goes up agains the opposition's top line every night but 3rd line centre's don't get the ice time that he gets
I don't think 1A, 1B, and 1C works. Not enough ice time to keep everyone happy. You end up with players that either don't produce at their max potential due to limited ice time, or you get guys that throw a tantrum about the ice time (and demand a trade, one way or another, when it's time to sign a contract). That's why the vast majority of teams -- particularly the successful ones -- go with the more traditional top 6 / bottom 6 recipe.

Stastny leaving is pure speculation. Have you actually seen anything that insinuates that he wants to walk? Or that management has no desire to resign him?

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02-21-2013, 03:14 PM
  #368
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I don't think 1A, 1B, and 1C works. Not enough ice time to keep everyone happy. You end up with players that either don't produce at their max potential due to limited ice time, or you get guys that throw a tantrum about the ice time (and demand a trade, one way or another, when it's time to sign a contract). That's why the vast majority of teams -- particularly the successful ones -- go with the more traditional top 6 / bottom 6 recipe.

Stastny leaving is pure speculation. Have you actually seen anything that insinuates that he wants to walk? Or that management has no desire to resign him?
I don't necessarily agree. I think the 3 scoring lines system CAN work as long as it's done properly...

Oh I guess it can't work with Sacco then.

Seriously though, when this team has been at it's best, we were going with 3 scoring lines : 1996 Cup & 2001 Cup teams featured 3 centers-deep and 3 lines that could score.

I agree that it's difficult to maintain because what seems to happen is players playing on the '3rd line' end up getting easier match-ups due to teams loading up trying to defend against lines 1 & 2. That can sometimes translate to guys having big years points-wise and thinking 'imagine what I could do if I had even MORE ice time'?!?! but it never ends up working out like they planned. They still get their bigger pay-day though.

Thinking specifically of Mike Ricci, Chris Drury, Steve Reinprecht and even Alex Tanguay who I think was able to put up 78pts playing with Lappy and Brett McLean if I remember correctly.

I think the circumstances are a bit different now though, since the guys in slots 1 & 2 are not Sakic and Forsberg. Having 3 scoring lines instead of 2 is a huge benefit when the other teams shut-down 1 line, and the other one is having a bad night. At least it gives you another possibility. I think you really need to have more two-way guys rather than pure offensive guys though for this to be really effective. I'm a big believer in it and it really BLOWS that this season has gotten off the rails, hold-out and injuries wise.

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02-21-2013, 03:18 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
I don't think 1A, 1B, and 1C works. Not enough ice time to keep everyone happy. You end up with players that either don't produce at their max potential due to limited ice time, or you get guys that throw a tantrum about the ice time (and demand a trade, one way or another, when it's time to sign a contract). That's why the vast majority of teams -- particularly the successful ones -- go with the more traditional top 6 / bottom 6 recipe.

Stastny leaving is pure speculation. Have you actually seen anything that insinuates that he wants to walk? Or that management has no desire to resign him?
I agree with this. I think it can work if you give them similar playing time like the Avs did last season but it doesn't make much sense. Duchene is on another level and should be playing over 20 minutes per game.

As for Stastny, it is all pure speculation but unless he takes a big paycut, I can't see the Avs re-signing him.

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02-21-2013, 03:20 PM
  #370
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I don't think 1A, 1B, and 1C works. Not enough ice time to keep everyone happy. You end up with players that either don't produce at their max potential due to limited ice time, or you get guys that throw a tantrum about the ice time (and demand a trade, one way or another, when it's time to sign a contract). That's why the vast majority of teams -- particularly the successful ones -- go with the more traditional top 6 / bottom 6 recipe.

Stastny leaving is pure speculation. Have you actually seen anything that insinuates that he wants to walk? Or that management has no desire to resign him?
And don't forget...you can probably fit 3 really good centers on a team payroll wise but when you also try to include 6 really good wingers to surround them with you'll be way over the cap. I don't believe you can have three #1 lines and keep nine egos happy in the process.

The only concern I have with trading ROR is how much money will the AVs have to pay to keep Stastny (or bring in someone else) to be our 2nd line center in the next couple or years. I really liked the idea of ROR being that guy but he simply had other ideas. As far as the return...I think the AVs should deal with the team offering them the best defensemen and then work out the other particulars. Get the single best Dman possible, screw everything else. I'd really love to see Jack Johnson but man no way Davidson will allow that to happen.

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02-21-2013, 03:20 PM
  #371
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McGinn-Mitchell/Bozak-Downie would be a great 3rd line, with offense, pk ability and grit.

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02-21-2013, 03:26 PM
  #372
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Fair enough. Didn't mean for that to sound as harsh as it came off.

I think we lose far more than a 2nd line center when we lose O'Reilly, but I guess the longer this drags on the more untenable it becomes. I suppose if we can address two big needs while creating another hole, it isn't a complete loss. Unfortunately this team is in the position of being potentially screwed if Stastny bolts.

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02-21-2013, 03:43 PM
  #373
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McGinn-Mitchell/Bozak-Downie would be a great 3rd line, with offense, pk ability and grit.
I would take Bozak as our 3rd line C any day of the week. He would be a very replacement for RoR. He is very good 2-way players and great at faceoffs. He can also fill in as a #2 C if injuries occur.

I think he would take less money as a UFA to play here in Denver than anywhere else.

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02-21-2013, 03:53 PM
  #374
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I would take Bozak as our 3rd line C any day of the week. He would be a very replacement for RoR. He is very good 2-way players and great at faceoffs. He can also fill in as a #2 C if injuries occur.

I think he would take less money as a UFA to play here in Denver than anywhere else.
I agree, and in a year if Stazz bolts and Bozak continues to develop, he could suffice in a 2C roll. Plus, there are 2 drafts yet to find our replacement for Stazz. I hear you can sometimes find a good one in the 2nd round.

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02-21-2013, 04:03 PM
  #375
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I would take Bozak as our 3rd line C any day of the week. He would be a very replacement for RoR. He is very good 2-way players and great at faceoffs. He can also fill in as a #2 C if injuries occur.

I think he would take less money as a UFA to play here in Denver than anywhere else.
You honestly think Tyler Bozak would take less money and a diminished role just so he could play in Denver...?

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