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Old
02-21-2013, 10:16 AM
  #101
Garbage Goal
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He's likely to only be moved for a high quality d. Most likely a package deal.

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02-21-2013, 10:59 AM
  #102
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People seem to think just because Couturier hasn't found his offensive game in the first 20 games with the top 9 and PP time he will only be a 50 point guy. Young players have to grow into their roles he's still in the process for finding his offense at the NHL level. I think there's no reason he won't be a good-great player...he's got skill, size, and a high hockey IQ. 70 points is not a stretch for him to hit at this point IMO and I think he could do more.

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02-21-2013, 11:06 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
What kind of surgury did Bogosian have on his wrist?
Unless you quoted me by mistake I am guessing you figure the surgery to be the reason he is worth less than Rielly. So my guess would be, complete amputation of the hand?

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02-21-2013, 11:42 AM
  #104
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Couturier


Clowe
Demers/Braun
1rst round pick 13/2nd round pick 14 (depending on value)

Sharks do this because they get a young top-6 forward that they can rebuild with Couture. Lol imagine the commentators . Flyers get the young PMD with tons of upside and potential along with Clowe and a high pick.

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02-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
I have not seen the leafs play in a few games but is Gardiner still in the minors. If he's so valuable what the hell is he doing there, helping sell tickets? If I was running the flyers my three centermen would be Giroux, Couturier and Schenn. Six quality wingers like Briere, Hartnell, Voracek, Simmonds, Read and another ( maybe Talbot) . Have a tough fourth line with Rinaldo, Sesito etc. and roll the lines. They should have confidence in those forwards to play against anyone. The fourth line obviously is not getting the minutes of lines 1a,1b,1c.Servicable defencemen could be found in Buffalo, Phoenix or Toronto to support the likes of Timonen, Coburn, Grossman and Schenn for 2nd, and third rounders. Let Couturier and Schenn develop and give them decent wingers to play with.
this^^^^^^

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02-21-2013, 11:50 AM
  #106
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No he didn't...
Then he undervalues Voynov more than anyone has ever undervalued Couts.

So do you?

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02-21-2013, 12:06 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
You do realize Couturier has a career high of 27 points I think all of those defenseman have higher career highs in points. Granted Couturier will most likely get much better. But what do you really think his ceiling is? IMO if everything goes right he will be similar to Kesler. But there is a better chance he settles in at around 55-65 points or so. But he could end up a 35-45 point player as well.

Couturier right now can be anything from a good 3rd line center to a good potentially great 2nd line center IMO.
What do you expect his point total to be playing as an 18 year old, on the 4th line of a playoff team, no PP time, against teams best lines???

He has the UPSIDE to be a #1 C. But with Giroux there, he could be a #1B C.

In Jr, we won a scoring title, had the best PPG for draft eligible players, won MVP, named top prospect and had the leagues best +/- Why is he only ever thought of as a defensive player that gets 45 points???????? Just becuase he CAN play defense, doesn't mean he CAN'T play offense!!

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02-21-2013, 12:11 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Couturier does actually need to be better offensively if people are going to deem him a future "superstar", especially 5-on-5. Last year he had little PP time, less TOI, worse line mates. He doesn't have those excuses this year, so I don't see how he hasn't had the opportunity, which is what you said.

And I don't see how Couturier playing on a 5-on-3 at this stage makes him a better player in the future than other players in his draft class. He's a different player than them.



Fowler and Bogosian are top pairing d-men on their respective teams... arguably their team's best d-men. How is Couturier worth one of them? What has he done to be worth a young top pairing d-man who still has room to grow?
See this is what I mean. You claim that bogosian and fowler are top players who have room to grow, yet you seem to negate that title for couturier who's only 20 years old. Does he not have room to grow? He's the best defensive player on our team, and probably better defensively than any of our defensemen save for Timonen. He plays against top lines and forces other teams to try and get their players away from couturier, and yet he's not worth a defenseman with similar upside? I understand that both bogosian and fowler have played longer, but couturier has arguably made just as big an impact on his team.

And I don't understand how people don't see his offensive upside. He's been used primarily in a shutdown role, and he had the highest PPG% in his draft class, yet people seem to be under the impression that his offensive potential is that of a 3rd liner. Will he be an 80 pt center? I don't know, I can't tell you that. The role hes used in here may not support that, but does he have the potential to be? Absolutely.

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02-21-2013, 01:47 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
See this is what I mean. You claim that bogosian and fowler are top players who have room to grow, yet you seem to negate that title for couturier who's only 20 years old. Does he not have room to grow? He's the best defensive player on our team, and probably better defensively than any of our defensemen save for Timonen. He plays against top lines and forces other teams to try and get their players away from couturier, and yet he's not worth a defenseman with similar upside? I understand that both bogosian and fowler have played longer, but couturier has arguably made just as big an impact on his team.

And I don't understand how people don't see his offensive upside. He's been used primarily in a shutdown role, and he had the highest PPG% in his draft class, yet people seem to be under the impression that his offensive potential is that of a 3rd liner. Will he be an 80 pt center? I don't know, I can't tell you that. The role hes used in here may not support that, but does he have the potential to be? Absolutely.
It's not a hard concept. "More proven with great potential" will beat out "somewhat proven with great potential" any day of the week. Nobody's arguing Couturier can't or won't be a great player, but his value isn't yet in the same category as most of those defensemen listed.

Edit: in fact, I'd say the problem is the opposite of what you said. A lot of Philly fans say Couturier's already pretty good, but has so much room to grow, and that' why he's so valuable. Yet all those defensemen are still very young and have plenty of room to grow themselves, yet have proven more so far.

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02-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Everyone's a bust until proven not a bust, particularly if they play for the Flyers. vanRiemsdyk, BSchenn, Couturier, Richards, Carter. You can even tack on Giroux since everyone said his offensive potential was going to hit a max despite the incredible flashes from his early NHL career.
Don't go all 'victim' on me.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How does that put him over Couturier by Roo Mad Bro's explanation? Couturier out produced Strome.
My bad, I didn't consider games played, forgot Couturier was at the WJC.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Who said that about Huberdeau > Couturier? It was pretty much suspected that Couturier was going to fall out of the top three at that point. It really depended on what type of player Florida wanted.
Everyone was lauding the Couturier pick and saying the Panthers made a huge mistake drafting Huberdeau over him. Everyone.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
While producing at the CHL level is very important, it's hard to compare those points among peers.

Couturier out-produced Huberdeau at the CHL level, but they are very different players.

Huberdeau right now has 9 points in 15 games.
Couturier has 7 points in 16 games against tougher competition while playing all-world defense (he's easily the best defensive forward on the team.)
3 of them are assists on the powerplay. Couturier has 4 points in 16 games at even strength, Huberdeau has 7 in 15. I understand that Couturier's playing different minutes, but he's also playing more, against weaker defense, and with better linemates.

The difference here in our arguments is that I'm acknowledging that Couturier's playing stupidly hard minutes and how that affects his offensive production relative to Huberdeau. You're not acknowledging the parts of Huberdeau's situation that make his production just as impressive.

Again, I'm not saying that one player is better than the other, I'm just trying to say that the rest of Couturier's draft class is catching up with him, and it slightly decreases his relative value.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Are you sure that Couturier won't out produce Huberdeau WHILE playing all-world defense and sharing his minutes with Giroux and BSchenn? We're less than 20 games in. I mean, for god's sake, Vanek is still out-producing Crosby.
Of course I'm not sure, for god's sake. I'm just saying that watching Huberdeau and watching Couturier, you can see a huge difference in offensive talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweHockeypunk21 View Post

Couturier


Clowe
Demers/Braun
1rst round pick 13/2nd round pick 14 (depending on value)

Sharks do this because they get a young top-6 forward that they can rebuild with Couture. Lol imagine the commentators . Flyers get the young PMD with tons of upside and potential along with Clowe and a high pick.
Stop, ****ing stop it with these terrible 'Couturier to SJ' proposals. We have one player that would get Philly's attention for Couturier, and that player is going nowhere, so for the love of god, stop.

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02-21-2013, 02:08 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
See this is what I mean. You claim that bogosian and fowler are top players who have room to grow, yet you seem to negate that title for couturier who's only 20 years old. Does he not have room to grow? He's the best defensive player on our team, and probably better defensively than any of our defensemen save for Timonen. He plays against top lines and forces other teams to try and get their players away from couturier, and yet he's not worth a defenseman with similar upside? I understand that both bogosian and fowler have played longer, but couturier has arguably made just as big an impact on his team.

And I don't understand how people don't see his offensive upside. He's been used primarily in a shutdown role, and he had the highest PPG% in his draft class, yet people seem to be under the impression that his offensive potential is that of a 3rd liner. Will he be an 80 pt center? I don't know, I can't tell you that. The role hes used in here may not support that, but does he have the potential to be? Absolutely.
Basically what 2 posters above me said. What is Couturier right now? A #1 center? #2? #3? IMO he's a #3 with potential to be a very good #2 or a 1a/1b type of center a la Bergeron or J. Staal. What is Bogosian right now? Bottom pairing d-man? Top 4 d-man? Top pairing? #1? I'd say that he's a top pairing with the potential to be better.

As I said somewhere else in this thread, potential and draft pedigree an only get you so far. It's also above what you've proven in the NHL. Couturier hasn't proven anything yet that would make his value equal to that of a top pairing d-man without adding. In the long run maybe he is just as valuable as Zach Bogosian. But right now? He's not to me.

As for the last part, plenty of players have great potential but it's highly unlikely most players reach them. So yeah, if everything went right for most players, the NHL would have had more than 9 players with 80+ points last year and more than 21 players with 70+ points last year. I don't know why people act like it's insulting to Couturier to say I believe he'll be a ~60 point player for the most part. I've watched nearly every game he's played, so it's not like I'm reading his stat line. I'm watching him play and I don't see elite offensive capabilities in him. And for every excuse that people use as to why he hasn't shown more offensively, I could make one for every other player in his draft class. Very few players are put in a perfect situation. Hey, I'd love to be wrong though and will gladly admit it if I am.

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:35 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
You obviously know nothing about Blum. That's actually a very fair proposal.
No it's not. Coturier is a rare breed. This is dumb becuse people assume the flyers actually care about you're players as much as u do. I agree the couturier alone won't get u oel. But that's what it would take to get couturier, agree with it or not. In a couple years everyone will stop with that nonsense of how he's over valued.

People said Matt read and voracek were t worth much as well this summer. Turns out that was nonsense.

If the flyers players arnt worth much then why have they been in the playoffs consistently every year (except one). Fact is flyer develop and draft much better than most teams.

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02-21-2013, 02:37 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Basically what 2 posters above me said. What is Couturier right now? A #1 center? #2? #3? IMO he's a #3 with potential to be a very good #2 or a 1a/1b type of center a la Bergeron or J. Staal. What is Bogosian right now? Bottom pairing d-man? Top 4 d-man? Top pairing? #1? I'd say that he's a top pairing with the potential to be better.

As I said somewhere else in this thread, potential and draft pedigree an only get you so far. It's also above what you've proven in the NHL. Couturier hasn't proven anything yet that would make his value equal to that of a top pairing d-man without adding. In the long run maybe he is just as valuable as Zach Bogosian. But right now? He's not to me.

As for the last part, plenty of players have great potential but it's highly unlikely most players reach them. So yeah, if everything went right for most players, the NHL would have had more than 9 players with 80+ points last year and more than 21 players with 70+ points last year. I don't know why people act like it's insulting to Couturier to say I believe he'll be a ~60 point player for the most part. I've watched nearly every game he's played, so it's not like I'm reading his stat line. I'm watching him play and I don't see elite offensive capabilities in him. And for every excuse that people use as to why he hasn't shown more offensively, I could make one for every other player in his draft class. Very few players are put in a perfect situation. Hey, I'd love to be wrong though and will gladly admit it if I am.
You do realize that Couturier's season last year was pretty incredible, right?

Not for the offensive aspect, but for his defensive play.

Among 2011 draftees, Couturier:

-Highest SH TOI/G (2:41/G, next highest was Landeskog at 1:20/G)
-Lowest offensive zone start %. Only started 40% of his shifts in the offensive zone, which was the 24th lowest among all forwards who played 70 games.
-Was 2nd in terms of quality of competition (behind Landeskog). Couturier was 68th among all forwards with 70 games in terms of quality of competition.


His most frequent linemates last year? Max Talbot and Zac Rinaldo.

For comparison, Landeskog's most frequent linemates were: Ryan O'Reilly & Milan Hejduk and RNH got to play with Eberle and Hall.


He was not put in a position to succeed offensively. That was not his job. Any young rookie put in his situation would not have put up amazing numbers.

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02-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #114
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There's a reason Couturier is included in about 50 trade proposals from opposing teams' fans every day: players like him are extremely rare and valuable. What people consider an "overpayment" is close to fair market value considering his unique skill set. And then you would still have to add, because Philadelphia has no interest in trading him. Simply put, we know you want him, but you can't have him.

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02-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #115
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No, Fowler for Couturier does not work.

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02-21-2013, 02:44 PM
  #116
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Couturier is so overrated is unbelievable.

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02-21-2013, 02:51 PM
  #117
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Couturier is so overrated is unbelievable.
Yet you've made two different (awful) proposals for him.


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02-21-2013, 02:51 PM
  #118
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evaluating couturier based off points , is like evaluating jordan staal based off points.

WHen you are in a 3rd line position your role changes, and points come secondary to shutting down the other teams best line.

This is where couturier excels.

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02-21-2013, 02:51 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
You do realize that Couturier's season last year was pretty incredible, right?

Not for the offensive aspect, but for his defensive play.

Among 2011 draftees, Couturier:

-Highest SH TOI/G (2:41/G, next highest was Landeskog at 1:20/G)
-Lowest offensive zone start %. Only started 40% of his shifts in the offensive zone, which was the 24th lowest among all forwards who played 70 games.
-Was 2nd in terms of quality of competition (behind Landeskog). Couturier was 68th among all forwards with 70 games in terms of quality of competition.


His most frequent linemates last year? Max Talbot and Zac Rinaldo.

For comparison, Landeskog's most frequent linemates were: Ryan O'Reilly & Milan Hejduk and RNH got to play with Eberle and Hall.


He was not put in a position to succeed offensively. That was not his job. Any young rookie put in his situation would not have put up amazing numbers.
Personally, I'm not bemoaning his lack of production, although I am discussing it. He's an elite defensive forward and that's amazing. But he doesn't show enough offensive flashes to me, watching him, that make me think things would have been different if he were playing with an O'Reilly caliber player. (For reference, Landeskog played with O'Reilly and Winnik until Winnik was traded, when he and Radar were given Downie).

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02-21-2013, 02:54 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
There's a reason Couturier is included in about 50 trade proposals from opposing teams' fans every day: players like him are extremely rare and valuable. What people consider an "overpayment" is close to fair market value considering his unique skill set. And then you would still have to add, because Philadelphia has no interest in trading him. Simply put, we know you want him, but you can't have him.
this. /thread. I'm done reading. Tired of people saying we overvalue our players. Most of the teams are offering things ont here team they're not very attached to. While we consider Couturier our future.

It's not like the flyers are a team with little success. Over the past 10 years I have watched this team they have been favored to win a cup by many at least at one point in this league. Fact is most teams are trying to catch up with the Flyers, definitely not the other way around.

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02-21-2013, 02:59 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
You do realize that Couturier's season last year was pretty incredible, right?

Not for the offensive aspect, but for his defensive play.

Among 2011 draftees, Couturier:

-Highest SH TOI/G (2:41/G, next highest was Landeskog at 1:20/G)
-Lowest offensive zone start %. Only started 40% of his shifts in the offensive zone, which was the 24th lowest among all forwards who played 70 games.
-Was 2nd in terms of quality of competition (behind Landeskog). Couturier was 68th among all forwards with 70 games in terms of quality of competition.

His most frequent linemates last year? Max Talbot and Zac Rinaldo.

For comparison, Landeskog's most frequent linemates were: Ryan O'Reilly & Milan Hejduk and RNH got to play with Eberle and Hall.

He was not put in a position to succeed offensively. That was not his job. Any young rookie put in his situation would not have put up amazing numbers.
Obviously he wasn't put in the place to exceed offensively. But that doesn't mean you can't show offensive capability. I don't see elite offensive potential in him. As I said, it's not about his stat line, it's about what I've actually seen when he plays. Why is that such a big deal?

BTW, Jordan Staal had a pretty spectacular rookie season. Elite offensive player though? No. Best player from his draft? No. Top 3 player from his draft? No. Why do people act like that comparison is an insult?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
There's a reason Couturier is included in about 50 trade proposals from opposing teams' fans every day: players like him are extremely rare and valuable. What people consider an "overpayment" is close to fair market value considering his unique skill set. And then you would still have to add, because Philadelphia has no interest in trading him. Simply put, we know you want him, but you can't have him.
What else are posters supposed to ask for when Flyer fans are asking for their young, up and coming d-men? Giroux? Of course their asking for Couturier (and B. Schenn). Other teams don't have any interest in trading their players either... i.e., when Flyer fans ask for OEL. You have to overpay for other teams players as well, instead of offering Voracek+, Simmonds+, Read+.

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02-21-2013, 03:02 PM
  #122
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No team is going to pay full price for Couturier while Ryan O'Reilly continues to hold out. Not that Couturier is actually being shopped.

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02-21-2013, 03:06 PM
  #123
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Couturier+2nd for Subban

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02-21-2013, 03:12 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
evaluating couturier based off points , is like evaluating jordan staal based off points.

WHen you are in a 3rd line position your role changes, and points come secondary to shutting down the other teams best line.

This is where couturier excels.
No one is basing his value off points, as in he is a 27 pts player. Everyone is admitting his potential as a huge part of the value. People simply aren't going to magically agree about where on the 50-80pts spectrum his potential falls though.
Just the fact that pretty much everyone agrees that his potential is at worst about twice what he has done so far should tip you off on that.

And yes, Jordan Staal had a better rookie season, a better draft pedigree, a better everything and still would not have gotten you a young top pairing Dman at that point.

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02-21-2013, 03:40 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Obviously he wasn't put in the place to exceed offensively. But that doesn't mean you can't show offensive capability. I don't see elite offensive potential in him. As I said, it's not about his stat line, it's about what I've actually seen when he plays. Why is that such a big deal?

BTW, Jordan Staal had a pretty spectacular rookie season. Elite offensive player though? No. Best player from his draft? No. Top 3 player from his draft? No. Why do people act like that comparison is an insult?



What else are posters supposed to ask for when Flyer fans are asking for their young, up and coming d-men? Giroux? Of course their asking for Couturier (and B. Schenn). Other teams don't have any interest in trading their players either... i.e., when Flyer fans ask for OEL. You have to overpay for other teams players as well, instead of offering Voracek+, Simmonds+, Read+.
Voracek is a good player and he's only 23 years old. I don't want the Flyers to trade him. He is great with the puck. If he could only finish more.

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