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Sharks Prospect Info/Discussion 6.0

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:14 PM
  #576
stalockrox
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
I suppose it'll depend on the definition of "skilled" but when was the last time a prospect wasn't? Apart from Couture and Seto who were top 10 picks (and Couture would be top 3 if not for injuries). Not gonna include Michalek/Bernier because back then the line-up was pretty thin.

Wingels, McGinn, Mashinter come to mind (yes Mashinter). I'm sure Hamilton and Videnesky will have the same problem. Just gotta hope Nieto/O'Reagan/Kuraly won't be ruined.

Unless a player has 1st line potential, the management/coaching staff won't give a **** and will turn them into 3rd/4th liners. Some of it is Sommer's fault, some of it is McLellan's.
You're right, guess it depends on your definition of skilled 'cus none of those guys scream skill to me.

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02-21-2013, 03:23 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Are you sure? Because I heard the opposite. I'd believe you if you said, but I'm almost certain he said no to the AHL.
He said it somewhere else as well...but this is from a Merc. article:

Quote:
Hertl plays for Slava Praha, one of two Prague teams in his country’s men’s elite league. The fact that his coach is Vladimir Ruzicka — who played 233 NHL games with Edmonton, Boston and Ottawa – probably lessened any urgency in getting him across the pond earlier.

“One year and after (that), San Jose or the farm,” said Hertl, whose limited English still trumps my non-existent Czech.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...elopment-camp/


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02-21-2013, 03:36 PM
  #578
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Maybe he meant he'll become a beet farmer.

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02-21-2013, 03:37 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
I suppose it'll depend on the definition of "skilled" but when was the last time a prospect wasn't? Apart from Couture and Seto who were top 10 picks (and Couture would be top 3 if not for injuries). Not gonna include Michalek/Bernier because back then the line-up was pretty thin.

Wingels, McGinn, Mashinter come to mind (yes Mashinter). I'm sure Hamilton and Videnesky will have the same problem. Just gotta hope Nieto/O'Reagan/Kuraly won't be ruined.

Unless a player has 1st line potential, the management/coaching staff won't give a **** and will turn them into 3rd/4th liners. Some of it is Sommer's fault, some of it is McLellan's.
Unlike what some like Vaasa think, San Jose is in the business of winning hockey games, not developing prospects. Unless a prospect can show he deserves to take someone else's spot in the top-six, he isn't going to play there. Development cannot take a second-priority to winning, especially at the stage this team is in.

Those players you mentioned did nothing to merit more ice time. When Mcginn started to show it, he got moved as DW saw more attractive options (and, honestly, probably thought that Mcginn would fall back to earth).

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02-21-2013, 03:40 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
You're right, guess it depends on your definition of skilled 'cus none of those guys scream skill to me.
They did well in juniors and AHL. Potential is there. If not them, the only skilled forwards we have ever drafted were - Couture, Seto, Michalek, Pavelski, and Clowe (since 2000). 3 of them were top 10 picks. Pavelski fits the description. What line did Clowe play 05-06?

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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Unlike what some like Vaasa think, San Jose is in the business of winning hockey games, not developing prospects. Unless a prospect can show he deserves to take someone else's spot in the top-six, he isn't going to play there. Development cannot take a second-priority to winning, especially at the stage this team is in.
That's fine but it doesn't change the fact we don't really do a good job getting the most out of prospects unless they are top 10 picks or just very talented.

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02-21-2013, 04:35 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
That's fine but it doesn't change the fact we don't really do a good job getting the most out of prospects unless they are top 10 picks or just very talented.
That's like a farmer saying he doesn't get great crop yields unless the soil is good or the seeds are of good stock.

While you can lay some blame with the scouting for not finding more gems, what organizations can turn players without talent into players with talent? How much can an organization push that limit? Your notion seems to be that one can develop top-6 forwards from players with limited talent, but it is the talent that makes someone a top-six forward.

What do you expect when you get "prospects who are not very talented"? Can you name a player who could have been a top-6 forward who's development the Sharks squandered by placing him on the lower lines? Marcel Goc is the only one that comes to mind...

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02-21-2013, 04:55 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Can you name a player who could have been a top-6 forward who's development the Sharks squandered by placing him on the lower lines? Marcel Goc is the only one that comes to mind...
That would be impossible to say unless you live in a parallel universe. Even with Goc, it might not be true.

What I know is that the Sharks like to call-up players to play on the bottom lines, and expecting them to change their style of play to grinding/physical/fighting, even if it's not natural to them. Those players get used to that style and accept it as their only way to stay in the NHL. It might be they are just not talented enough or maybe they don't get the opportunity, or just settle for the role they're given to stay on the team. Our top-6 is set at all times, there is little to no opportunity there.

Point is top-10 picks or hidden gems like Pavelski would make it anywhere. There are plenty of talented draft picks that need help along the way to reach their potential, and I don't think Sommer or McLellan provides it. Again, I don't expect McLellan to put AHLers on the first line but while it makes sense to play someone like Desi on the 4th line, it just doesn't make sense to put someone like ... Kaspar and hope he blossoms. Not that I am saying he isn't a bust; just talking about the type of a player who is not meant for that style of play.

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02-21-2013, 05:01 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
That would be impossible to say unless you live in a parallel universe. Even with Goc, it might not be true.

What I know is that the Sharks like to call-up players to play on the bottom lines, and expecting them to change their style of play to grinding/physical/fighting, even if it's not natural to them. Those players get used to that style and accept it as their only way to stay in the NHL. It might be they are just not talented enough or maybe they don't get the opportunity, or just settle for the role they're given to stay on the team. Our top-6 is set at all times, there is little to no opportunity there.
There is right now, Clowe is playing like crap and they are clearly trying to find someone to step up, so far Kennedy has been that guy. Do I want Kennedy in the top-6 long term? No, but at the moment he is certainly taking every advantage of that opportunity. So to say there is NO opportunity is disingenuous. There is the same amount of opportunity that there is on any team loaded with talent, the competition is just tougher. Sheppard is another example of a player who has come up and imposed his will and earned a spot. If I was McLellan, and everyone was healthy, the team I would be icing right now would look like this:

Sheppard - Thornton - Pavelski
Marleau - Couture - Havlat
Kennedy - Handzus - Wingels
Clowe/Galiardi - Gomez - Desjardins/Burish

There is opportunity there, you just have to earn it.

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02-21-2013, 05:30 PM
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
That would be impossible to say unless you live in a parallel universe. Even with Goc, it might not be true.

What I know is that the Sharks like to call-up players to play on the bottom lines, and expecting them to change their style of play to grinding/physical/fighting, even if it's not natural to them. Those players get used to that style and accept it as their only way to stay in the NHL. It might be they are just not talented enough or maybe they don't get the opportunity, or just settle for the role they're given to stay on the team. Our top-6 is set at all times, there is little to no opportunity there.

Point is top-10 picks or hidden gems like Pavelski would make it anywhere. There are plenty of talented draft picks that need help along the way to reach their potential, and I don't think Sommer or McLellan provides it. Again, I don't expect McLellan to put AHLers on the first line but while it makes sense to play someone like Desi on the 4th line, it just doesn't make sense to put someone like ... Kaspar and hope he blossoms. Not that I am saying he isn't a bust; just talking about the type of a player who is not meant for that style of play.
Players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, make it anywhere.

Look, Pavelski joined the Sharks in 2007,. Would he be here today if the Mark Bell and/or Steve Bernier projects had worked out? With foresight, one could have claimed that Pavelski-of-2012 would be > than Bell or Bernier could hope to be, but a GM that selected a 22-year-old project over the birds-in-hand (including, potentially, Guerin) would have been reaching.

Still, I think I better understand the type of player you mean: Players whose play isn't fit for anything but the top lines. These are the types of players you worry the Sharks are missing out on?

Retainable players should perform at all level. If eventually they cannot crack your lineup because of its strength (hopefully this describes Sheppard, Wingels, and Galiardi), those players become tradeable assets. That is how their value is maximized.

With more one-dimensional players, the team has to take a risk. Kasper, for example, was terrible for the bottom-6. So do you give him ice time in the top-six undeservedly? What kind of message does that send? Generally, players like that aren't well-valued. Players who can't play in the bottom-six generally are not multi-talented; they can only contribute in limited ways despite gaudy statlines.

Take Tim Kennedy. He's not NHL-quality defensively, he's not physical, he's a complementary player, and has a limited offensive skillset. He's a poor man's Nils Ekman. The Sharks should endeavour to do better, as they did with Ekman.

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02-21-2013, 05:45 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Still, I think I better understand the type of player you mean: Players whose play isn't fit for anything but the top lines. These are the types of players you worry the Sharks are missing out on?

Retainable players should perform at all level. If eventually they cannot crack your lineup because of its strength (hopefully this describes Sheppard, Wingels, and Galiardi), those players become tradeable assets. That is how their value is maximized.

With more one-dimensional players, the team has to take a risk. Kasper, for example, was terrible for the bottom-6. So do you give him ice time in the top-six undeservedly? What kind of message does that send? Generally, players like that aren't well-valued. Players who can't play in the bottom-six generally are not multi-talented; they can only contribute in limited ways despite gaudy statlines.
Those players could be very valuable, especially when you're trying to roll three scoring lines. You don't need to have two-way players dominate your top-6. You can have two responsible players with another one dimensional tweener to excel. You have three of those and you have three scoring lines, as opposed to our quality top-6 and a useless gritty bottom-6. Grabner, Wellwood, Gerbe - players like that. A player like Parenteau would have probably never made it on the Sharks; then again he didn't make it in Chicago or NY either.

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02-21-2013, 06:33 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Those players could be very valuable, especially when you're trying to roll three scoring lines. You don't need to have two-way players dominate your top-6. You can have two responsible players with another one dimensional tweener to excel. You have three of those and you have three scoring lines, as opposed to our quality top-6 and a useless gritty bottom-6. Grabner, Wellwood, Gerbe - players like that. A player like Parenteau would have probably never made it on the Sharks; then again he didn't make it in Chicago or NY either.
You don't need two-way players necessarily (though a good coach will quickly tire of players who are irresponsible defensively, which Kennedy can be), but you need multi-dimensional players. Two-way play is just one of those dimensions.

Ryane Clowe is an example of this. He's not great defensively, but offensively, he's multi-talented. When at his best, he's physical, he can dominate the boards, he can cycle or play off the transition, he has a great shot, he is a good passer, etc. He's also a leader who can fight.

I don't neccessariy think that Grabner, Wellwood, or Gerbe fit your definition. A tweener would be someone like a Plihal (low-end), or Ferriero, or Kaspar. Actually, I am rescinding my comment about Ekman...guy was closer to a Clowe than a tweener...

In any case, do you really think SJ had a Grabner or Wellwood sitting in the system that they didn't give ice time to?

In a way, I see your argment. As I type this, I am rethinking my stance. I would agree that having a "tweener" is OK as long as his linemates compliment him well. However, I think that over time, that player is going to fall out of favor. As soon as injuries or transactions force him into another role, he's going to fail...

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02-21-2013, 06:48 PM
  #587
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I feel like Wingels is, I think he could be a very good complimentary player but he had to change his game from a smart center to a physical 4th line winger. McGinn could've been useful as well (no Grabner obviously) if he wasn't used solely for hitting/fighting. Once he started hitting like truck in the NHL, he forgot that he used to be able to play hockey. Wish Mashinter, I don't know who to blame... but some of our AHL players tend to get confused when they get called up and sent down and change their game in the AHL - McLaren used to showcase some offensive skills but turned into a complete enforcer; Mashinter seemed to follow Clowe's trajectory and then stalled. But it could've been just him all along.

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02-21-2013, 06:59 PM
  #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
I feel like Wingels is, I think he could be a very good complimentary player but he had to change his game from a smart center to a physical 4th line winger. McGinn could've been useful as well (no Grabner obviously) if he wasn't used solely for hitting/fighting. Once he started hitting like truck in the NHL, he forgot that he used to be able to play hockey. Wish Mashinter, I don't know who to blame... but some of our AHL players tend to get confused when they get called up and sent down and change their game in the AHL - McLaren used to showcase some offensive skills but turned into a complete enforcer; Mashinter seemed to follow Clowe's trajectory and then stalled. But it could've been just him all along.
The way Wingels is playing now (and last year) is the way Wingels plays...he hasn't changed his game at all.

McGinn was given opportunities to show what he could do with skilled linemates and he really didn't show much. He didn't do anything to earn ice time in the top 6 while he was with the Sharks. He's now getting an opportunity in Col on a scoring line and it's working out for him - it happens.

Mashinter and McLaren weren't ever projected to be a whole lot more then what they currently are - 4th liners. People were hoping Mash was going to be a "Clowe lite" but that doesn't mean that's what he was supposed to (or could) develop into. Just because players can produce in juniors, College or the AHL doesn't mean they'll be able to produce NHL.

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02-22-2013, 08:18 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
The way Wingels is playing now (and last year) is the way Wingels plays...he hasn't changed his game at all.

McGinn was given opportunities to show what he could do with skilled linemates and he really didn't show much. He didn't do anything to earn ice time in the top 6 while he was with the Sharks. He's now getting an opportunity in Col on a scoring line and it's working out for him - it happens.

Mashinter and McLaren weren't ever projected to be a whole lot more then what they currently are - 4th liners. People were hoping Mash was going to be a "Clowe lite" but that doesn't mean that's what he was supposed to (or could) develop into. Just because players can produce in juniors, College or the AHL doesn't mean they'll be able to produce NHL.
It's foolish to think that that is totally independent of the development abilities of an organization though. A good developmental org will help those players transition to the NHL. I tend to agree with KM that the Sharks don't do a very good job with their prospects, unless the prospect does it on their own.

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02-22-2013, 09:31 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
It's foolish to think that that is totally independent of the development abilities of an organization though. A good developmental org will help those players transition to the NHL. I tend to agree with KM that the Sharks don't do a very good job with their prospects, unless the prospect does it on their own.
No, it's not. Even the best development won't turn a Mashinter or McLaren into something they're not. There's a reason why since 2000-2007 that less then 45% of drafted players even sniff the NHL.

On top of that, it's pretty foolish to think that the players who the Sharks have graduated have done it entirely on their own.

I don't think the org is great at drafting and developing but I've watched several of the Sharks prospects play over the years (prior to the draft, after the draft, pro, etc) and they really are a whole lot better then people give them credit for.

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02-22-2013, 01:44 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
It's foolish to think that that is totally independent of the development abilities of an organization though. A good developmental org will help those players transition to the NHL. I tend to agree with KM that the Sharks don't do a very good job with their prospects, unless the prospect does it on their own.
Let me give you a personal example.

I was a very productive player in Europe, and when I came over to study in the US of A, I took to playing against some other decently experienced hockey players and dominated.

When I took a shot at trying out for a WHL team, I thought I could do well. I knew other people who had had success in the NLA, SEL, and RSL who had had success in Canadian juniors, and some had gone on to have success in the pros. Numbers wise, I was supposed to have been a productive player.

But I wasn't. In lower-level leagues, my lack of size, strength, and shooting skills was not much of an issue. My other skills let me be a dominant player. That wasn't the case as I graduated through the ranks. There were other jack-of-all-trait, "well-rounded" players that were able to succeed...they were role players at every level.

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02-22-2013, 02:45 PM
  #592
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Hertl 1+0 in 4:0 win

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02-25-2013, 10:14 AM
  #593
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Watched BC (Macleod) - Merrimack yesterday.

Macleod was on the ice during a 5-on-3 PK, and had significant time in OT.

Seemed to be very responsible, defensively.

Like the potential future.

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02-27-2013, 03:25 AM
  #594
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Hertl 0+1 in 1-0 win. Slavia finished 2nd (same points as 1st). Play off games will be 10th March, 11th March, 14th March, 15th March (17th, 19th, 21st March if needed)

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02-27-2013, 11:29 AM
  #595
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Nieto had two goals and an assist with a plus-4 rating in last nights game against Merrimack. O'Regan had an assist.

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02-27-2013, 11:35 AM
  #596
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Nieto had two goals and an assist with a plus-4 rating in last nights game against Merrimack. O'Regan had an assist.
Here's the article about it:
http://www.ncaa.com/news/icehockey-m...id-win-against

Still, a season to forget for BU.

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03-01-2013, 12:01 PM
  #597
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Do we know anything about the development of Abeltshauser. Is he not playing in Worcester because we have too many D-men there already?

He seems to be doing really well at the QMJHL level (from a point perspective anyway).

EDIT: He was 3rd in Pts. for defensemen in the Q having played 7 and 8 games less than the top 2 guys.

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03-01-2013, 12:44 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Do we know anything about the development of Abeltshauser. Is he not playing in Worcester because we have too many D-men there already?

He seems to be doing really well at the QMJHL level (from a point perspective anyway).

EDIT: He was 3rd in Pts. for defensemen in the Q having played 7 and 8 games less than the top 2 guys.
I have heard wildly different opinions about him from QMJHL fan's, ranging from he is going to be the best defensemen of his draft class, that he is going to be SJ's latest late-round steal (QMHJHL fan), or that he isn't good enough defensively to crack the NHL.

I know that some NHL scouts are high on him...but then you rarely hear of the NHL scouts who are down on players...

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03-01-2013, 12:57 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
I have heard wildly different opinions about him from QMJHL fan's, ranging from he is going to be the best defensemen of his draft class, that he is going to be SJ's latest late-round steal (QMHJHL fan), or that he isn't good enough defensively to crack the NHL.

I know that some NHL scouts are high on him...but then you rarely hear of the NHL scouts who are down on players...
Thanks.

Yah not sure about his defensive abilities. Looking at the stats for the Mooseheads, Abeltshauser was a +36 which had him tied for 2nd among defensemen and 3rd overall on the team.

Not sure about the corsi numbers for QMJHL so hard to say based on that.

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03-01-2013, 01:04 PM
  #600
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That's why I hate the QMJHL. So easy to rack up stats - very misleading.

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