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Trade Rumours and Proposals: Part XXXV

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:03 PM
  #51
Holdurbreathe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Strome, Hamilton, Collberg, etc. Those are just off the top of my head. It's not something being 'just thrown out'. As before I tend to back up what I say with evidence.
Didn't realize Strome or Collberg were in the NHL or even a call ups.

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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
What is this based on? Noesen, Greening and Stone all have that potential. I'm not saying that Zibanejad can't become that player at all, but he's shown concerns; though a point in his favour is that a lot of power forward types have taken longer to develop.
Greening, the guy almost every Sens fan wants out of the line up or traded for a bag of pucks.

I like Greening but he doesn't possess the skill of Zibanejad. As well if he doesn't remember to use his size and strength to his advantage probably doesn't have a long career in the NHL.

Noesen is a good prospect, but Zibanejad is better than Noesen now and is playing against significantly better competition so most likely will develop faster. Remember they are the same age. It isn't likely you will see Noesen in the NHL for a few years yet and even then I am not sure he will be a top six.

Stone was a third line player in Binghamton until the lockout ended. While Stone has improved his skating to an acceptable level for junior hockey, it is definitely lacking for the AHL, let alone the NHL. While he thinks the game extremely well, unless he can improve his speed and mobility he will have a difficult time reaching the NHL. FYI I think it is entirely possible Prince will become the better player.

I am not sure what you have against Zibanejad, but the facts are at 19 he is in the NHL. While he isn't consistent enough to play top six minutes yet, he does a good job for the Sens playing a role and getting some PP time. Even if he was sent back to Binghamton he is still ahead of many of your comparatives.

Strome is playing junior, not a comparable.

Collberg is in the SEL, not really a comparable, however in 30 games 5 goals, 8 points, Zib at the same age in 26 games, 5 goals, 13 points on the worst team in the SEL.

While there is no question Zibanejad's develop has been slowed by lost time and last year with Djurgardens IF, there is nothing to suggest he won't reach his full potential, though it may have been delayed slightly.

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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Nobody is looking to trade him at every opportunity (at least I'm not). Zibanejad is arguably the biggest bargaining chip we are willing to part with because of his attributes. He's being offered up for the right opportunities (O'Reilly, Nash and Yandle...maybe Perry? I believe) not any and all. It's not like we are actively shopping Zibanejad -- we are using him as a piece to try and get a better, young player.
I have no problem with trading prospects for missing pieces or to accelerate the rebuild, this includes Zibby.

I believe the Sens biggest hole is top six wingers, thus the attempt to convert Zibanejad. Therefore to include Zib in a deal for Nash makes sense.

However ROR or Yandle aren't Nash, they don't fill the biggest need the Sens have, they are a WBN. So to offer up the one player that is the closest asset they currently have to filling their need for a WBN isn't necessarily good asset management IMO.

While I do understand you believe ROR is a valuable addition, you have also said ROR wouldn't be a significant upgrade over Turris.

So the way I analyze your proposed trade, the Sens get an upgrade at 2nd line center guaranteed. However Turris most likely fit is playing on the on the top line against the top checking wingers and defencemen in the league, I humbly suggest it may be a stretch.

At the same time the Sens give up a young talented puck moving defencemen that they need when Gonchar moves on. This suggests an additional trade or future UFA signing is required, neither of which will be easily achievable. IMO the defence will be weaker to a degree.

Add to this the acquisition of O'Brien, a LD that serves no useful purpose with Methot, Cowen, Phillips and Boro on the left side, then toss in a draft pick and I'm not convinced the proposed trade does improve the Sens when all is said and done.

The only problem I have is with all your expressed negativity towards Zibanejad to justify trading him, yet claim "Zibanejad is arguably the biggest bargaining chip we (you mean you) are willing to part with because of his attributes."

I asked you once before, Why would Sherman take Zibanejad in any deal given all your expressed concerns and negativity about this player?

Surely Colorado with their plethora of scouts would have come to the same conclusion you have.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 02-21-2013 at 03:16 PM.
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Old
02-21-2013, 03:11 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by balaclava brian View Post
I'm sorry, guy. I don't usually comment of people's trade proposals, but this is absolutely awful... A potential young, top six power forward for a deteriorating defenceman? On a contender, Jay-Bo is probably a #4 D, even that may be stretching it. In a couple years when we're hopefully a contender, he won't be what he is today. Admittedly, he seems to be having a decent season on a bad Calgary team, but he is not worth what you are proposing - a potential future core player for a guy we might get a couple years out of.

BB
you are welcome to comment on whatever you like, its a message board.
Im not sure how many people have watched him this year but ive seen him 4 or 5 times now and he's better than any defenceman not named Karlsson we have.
He would be an great 2nd pairing defensemen, fits into exactly the kind of style of play we are/have built in Ottawa.
He turns 30 in september, and IMO has 6 or 7 seven good seasons ahead of him based on the way he plays.

Cap space is 100% irrelevent for next year and this is with the expectation we have him for the next 5-7 years under contract at significantly lower rate.

IMO its harder to sign a high end UFA dman than it is a UFA top line winger, and i believe we need one of each - one through trade , one through UFA.
Would i rather have yandle? sure, and id pay more for him too.

Just a discussion folks, and i happen to think Bouwmeester is significantly better than people here are giving him credit for.

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02-21-2013, 03:35 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
Bouwmeester for Zibanejad and a 2nd next year.
resign Bouwmeester after next year at $5 million/year 4 years min.

Methot Karlsson
Cowen Bouwmeester
Phillips/Gryba Weircoch

Ceci

When Ceci is ready in a couple years. Slide him into the RS where he belongs (i think) and move whichever guy back over to the LS (weircoch or JBO)

that is a huge mobile and physical defence. id rather than than Ryan O'Reilly.
wow.

ROR>>>Zibby>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jbo

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:48 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
He has taken probably 5 one-timers in the NHL, one went in, another hit the crossbar. The only problem with his shot is the spots he picks to shoot. Instead of driving wide, or slowing the play down inside the blueline he takes a dragging wrist-shot on his off-wing. That is what drives me crazy. He hasn't had many shots from prime places.
All true.

Silf is suffering from the same problem to a degree, probably just another adjustment they are going through.

On the larger ice surface it gives the wingers more room to take pucks wide and carry deeper into the offensive zone. On NHL rinks the D is right in the wingers face. I noticed early on in Bingo Silf was taking those long shots as well, but he is adjusting.

My season tickets are at the end of the rink and I get to see lots of shots and I can say Zibby's is as fast and hard as anyone's. He took a wrist shot against the Islanders from the right circle that DiPietro is still is looking for.

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02-21-2013, 03:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
wow.

ROR>>>Zibby>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jbo
oh, well when you put in terms of arrows it clears everything up.
why did i even bother watching him play when i could have just used arrows.

To the Ottawa Senators org as currently configured the value (using your scale) of these players:


Yandle >>>>JBO>>>>>Zbad>>O'Reilly

1. We clearly need a top 3 dman more than we need another center.
2. Yandle is much better than JBO
4. JBO fills a large hole in our top 3 defence, which must be addressed and would cost signifcantly less than Yandle.
3. Zbad's value to this org is his future and is based on potential and O'Reilly's value has never been higher and a team will have to overpay to get him.

Now if the debate is over a top line winger or JBO using our assets that's another conversation.

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02-21-2013, 03:51 PM
  #56
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JBo will frustrate the hell out of Ottawa fans.

He'll be the next Rachunek.

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
JBo will frustrate the hell out of Ottawa fans.

He'll be the next Rachunek.
et tu Nyquil.
Ok that's it, i throw in the towel on this one.
the rest of you are idiots but Nyquil? he's like the board's House of Sober Second thought.

Case dismissed! or legislation shelved!

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:57 PM
  #58
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Please dear God don't trade Zibby for Boumeester

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02-21-2013, 04:02 PM
  #59
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Im down for a Jaybo acquisition. I think many other people would be too, but just not for our top prospect.

I think that thread on the trade board asking for a roster player + high pick + top prospect is ludicrous.

I would add a middle prospect like Da Costa, Prince, etc, a 2nd, and a player like Greening, Gryba, or Boro. That's a much easier pill to swallow than Zib and a 2nd.

Bottom pairing d-man or third liner, 2nd round pick, and a 2nd / 3rd line prospect at forward for a defenseman that can play in all situations, play 25 minutes a night, never gets hurt, and isn't too old to not be a core piece.

Who knows how close that is. Calgary fans seem to demand the world for their players.

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02-21-2013, 04:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Please dear God don't trade Zibby for Boumeester
Not to worry it won't happen!!

Cowen, Methot, Wiercoich, Karlsson are just fine, with Phillips, Benoit, Gryba and Boro working in the 5/6 spot..

While some just look at cap dollars, Melnyk isn't going to approve big spending unless this team is ready to honestly compete.

If the Sens get a proven winger or two to compliment the existing group, then acquistions like Bou might make sense.

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02-21-2013, 04:08 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derriko View Post
Im down for a Jaybo acquisition. I think many other people would be too, but just not for our top prospect.

I think that thread on the trade board asking for a roster player + high pick + top prospect is ludicrous.

I would add a middle prospect like Da Costa, Prince, etc, a 2nd, and a player like Greening, Gryba, or Boro. That's a much easier pill to swallow than Zib and a 2nd.

Bottom pairing d-man or third liner, 2nd round pick, and a 2nd / 3rd line prospect at forward for a defenseman that can play in all situations, play 25 minutes a night, never gets hurt, and isn't too old to not be a core piece.

Who knows how close that is. Calgary fans seem to demand the world for their players.
Must be an Albertan thing

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02-21-2013, 04:09 PM
  #62
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Spezza for Bouwmeester??

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02-21-2013, 04:11 PM
  #63
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I think Jaybo would thrive playing on the second pairing in Ottawa. A top four of

Karlsson-Methot
Jaybo-Cowen

Would be an extremely skilled, diverse group.

Although, I would not trade Zib for him, I would love to get him here.

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02-21-2013, 04:12 PM
  #64
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Let's be clear here, it's not that Jay Bo is a terrible d-man.

It's just that his physical gifts will frustrate the fans because he's never been able to live up to his potential and salary.

He's disappointed everywhere he's been.

I'm not sure how that will change here.

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02-21-2013, 04:14 PM
  #65
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Cowen's injuries worry me so I would be very happy with Jaybo: the guy is solid and is currently enjoying somewhat of a revival in Calgary, being used properly will help.

If Cowen ends up being fine in the long run then him and Jaybo would be redundant because you can't really have three dmen play 20 minutes however.

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02-21-2013, 04:18 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Let's be clear here, it's not that Jay Bo is a terrible d-man.

It's just that his physical gifts will frustrate the fans because he's never been able to live up to his potential and salary.

He's disappointed everywhere he's been.

I'm not sure how that will change here.
Wasn't he expected to be "The Guy" in Florida and Calgary? He wouldn't have that expectation here. A second Pairing, 2nd PP, 1st PK guy would be great for this team.

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02-21-2013, 04:19 PM
  #67
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Cowen's injuries worry me so I would be very happy with Jaybo: the guy is solid and is currently enjoying somewhat of a revival in Calgary, being used properly will help.

If Cowen ends up being fine in the long run then him and Jaybo would be redundant because you can't really have three dmen play 20 minutes however.
He's always played unremarkable minutes.

A better skating Kuba.

If Sens fans are prepared for the fact that this is what you get for your money, then fine, I'm on board.

However, he's never been able to live up to his early Team Canada hype, and it follows him around everywhere he goes, particularly I would guess in a Canadian market.

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02-21-2013, 04:23 PM
  #68
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Wasn't he expected to be "The Guy" in Florida and Calgary? He wouldn't have that expectation here. A second Pairing, 2nd PP, 1st PK guy would be great for this team.
Not Calgary. They still had Phaneuf and Regehr at the time.

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02-21-2013, 04:25 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
He's always played unremarkable minutes.

A better skating Kuba.

If Sens fans are prepared for the fact that this is what you get for your money, then fine, I'm on board.

However, he's never been able to live up to his early Team Canada hype, and it follows him around everywhere he goes, particularly I would guess in a Canadian market.
If we were to acquire JayBo, we would never be in the playoffs while he was here. So it is written.

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02-21-2013, 04:28 PM
  #70
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let me also be clear, im not looking to dump Z and would be far happier to deal some combination of lesser players.
Im pretty sure he is extremely effective at moving the puck out of the defensive zone either through a good pass or his exceptional speed.
His size allows him to be a good defender if not a punishing one.

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02-21-2013, 04:29 PM
  #71
Benny FTW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
oh, well when you put in terms of arrows it clears everything up.
why did i even bother watching him play when i could have just used arrows.

To the Ottawa Senators org as currently configured the value (using your scale) of these players:


Yandle >>>>JBO>>>>>Zbad>>O'Reilly

1. We clearly need a top 3 dman more than we need another center.
2. Yandle is much better than JBO
4. JBO fills a large hole in our top 3 defence, which must be addressed and would cost signifcantly less than Yandle.
3. Zbad's value to this org is his future and is based on potential and O'Reilly's value has never been higher and a team will have to overpay to get him.

Now if the debate is over a top line winger or JBO using our assets that's another conversation.
Its not my scale, learned in grade 4.

Jbo is a not a top 3 guy. More of a #4 imo. An overpaid #4 does not get a top prospect. Just gross.

Your also giving your opinion off as fact. As you have no way of knowing how Murray values players.

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02-21-2013, 04:42 PM
  #72
Wondercarrot
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Its not my scale, learned in grade 4.

Jbo is a not a top 3 guy. More of a #4 imo. An overpaid #4 does not get a top prospect. Just gross.

Your also giving your opinion off as fact. As you have no way of knowing how Murray values players.
what? i think its pretty obvious that this is all simply my opinion. (although i agree, but that's just how persuasive i am)
and BTW that's pretty rich coming from you.

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Old
02-21-2013, 04:53 PM
  #73
Benny FTW
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
what? i think its pretty obvious that this is all simply my opinion. (although i agree, but that's just how persuasive i am)
and BTW that's pretty rich coming from you.
Its the way you stated it.

I haven't given off anything as fact.

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02-21-2013, 04:57 PM
  #74
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I will burn SBP to the ground is Zibanejad is traded for Bouwmeester.

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02-21-2013, 05:08 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Its the way you stated it.

I haven't given off anything as fact.
You've given it off as fact that he has no way of knowing how Murray values players.

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