It's not hard to figure out, when Galchenyuk and Gallagher play against top lines they struggle to get out of their own end. When they get easier matchups they put up points.
Gionta is the opposite of unidimensional, he can gelp the team without scoring goals. He works his bag off, is strong defensively, impeccable work ethic, very good leader and can play both special teams.
So far the only fixture on the PP is Markov, the rest is interchangeable.
No, I'm saying he is offensively unidimensional.
I already said that I agree about him having a good defensive game, a good work ethic, solid leadership qualities, and being solid on the PK. Sure he can play the PP, just not well. And that's where I disagree with you; I believe there are other forwards who should be playing PP ahead of him: Plekanec, Bourque, Pacioretty, Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Desharnais and maybe even Cole.
What was the reason when after his 1st season, he had the same number of points....in 20ish more games? What was the reason when the season after that prior to his injury, he was going on a even less productive season? And again, working your tail off, being a great leader and good defensively...I'd take that any day of the week on a 3rd line.
I just think he will not improve. That he's on his way down while other players we have in the lineup that doesn't get his icetime are on their way up and we could be an even better team if we'd used them more. That's all.
I would think Gomez going from a 59 to 38 to 11 probably had a big effect on Gionta's point totals. Gionta's has always been more of a complementary player on his line as opposed to the guy who generates the offence. So he will be highly reliant on other players production.
Most 0.5ppg players are going to be paid around 3-4m, because of his leadership & defensive abilities he probably should be closer to 4m. So we are paying an extra million because he was UFA. Not really the end of the world. Subban being underpayed for the next 2 years more than covers it.
I already said that I agree about him having a good defensive game, a good work ethic, solid leadership qualities, and being solid on the PK. Sure he can play the PP, just not well. And that's where I disagree with you; I believe there are other forwards who should be playing PP ahead of him: Plekanec, Bourque, Pacioretty, Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Desharnais and maybe even Cole.
Bourque has the same number of points in pretty much the same number of PP minutes. Cole is even worse than he is. The Gally's have played 20 and 30 minutes on the PP this year and haven't gotten a point yet. Gionta's getting a point every 17-18 mins.
Bourque has the same number of points in pretty much the same number of PP minutes. Cole is even worse than he is. The Gally's have played 20 and 30 minutes on the PP this year and haven't gotten a point yet. Gionta's getting a point every 17-18 mins.
Gionta play in the first wave of PP with Markov and PK Subban and got most of his point when Markov/ The PP was in fire.
When the gally play on the PP, its with 30 sec left, , second wave D-Man , not enough time to start something solid the offensive zone. They still get some chances.
If you think Gionta is showing better things OFFENSIVELY on the PP than the Gally, you might be a little bit sold on the guy wearing the C, or a family member of him. The dude is invisible.
I would think Gomez going from a 59 to 38 to 11 probably had a big effect on Gionta's point totals. Gionta's has always been more of a complementary player on his line as opposed to the guy who generates the offence. So he will be highly reliant on other players production.
Most 0.5ppg players are going to be paid around 3-4m, because of his leadership & defensive abilities he probably should be closer to 4m. So we are paying an extra million because he was UFA. Not really the end of the world. Subban being underpayed for the next 2 years more than covers it.
I think he is more of a .6 or .65 player but the long layoff(missed half of last year + lock out) and no camp definitely affects his numnbers.
Do you even know what an invalid argument is? There is no flaw in his argument form, because it was stated as a subjective opinion. When it comes down to opinion, how could his premises be true while his conclusion be false? Before you rip on a guy, know what you're talking about.
Oh boy kiddo, you took a PHIL101 course and you don't even understand validity and soundness yet?
Yes I know what an invalid argument is and subjective obeservations are different than opinions and they are built on a series of assertions*. I'm saying his conclusion that "Gionta is doing fine" (I'm paraphrasing, I'm drunk) is invalid following his previous assertion that he's not scoring all that much.
For 5m a year, PP time and top-line minutes I expect more than "defensive soundness" to consider someone as "doing fine"
*If you'd like I can elaborate on argument structure and basic logical rules as I've come to study/understand them.
But not now. I'm drinking awful Johnnie Walker red, and I have to finish it. Yuck.
To all Gionta's defenders: Nobody would prefer to have another second round pick + take the Gionta money to sign Clowe next season?
with gomez and kaberle off the books, the habs will have more than 12m under the cap with 16 players signed, and no one really important to re-sign. bergevin could easily offer someone like getzlaf 8m per year, let alone sign clowe. the capspace is not an issue so there is no reason to trade valuable vetereans like cole and gionta. scoring depth is good, and capspace&picks can't win you games. we already have enough picks this summer.
with gomez and kaberle off the books, the habs will have more than 12m under the cap with 16 players signed, and no one really important to re-sign. bergevin could easily offer someone like getzlaf 8m per year, let alone sign clowe. the capspace is not an issue so there is no reason to trade valuable vetereans like cole and gionta. scoring depth is good, and capspace&picks can't win you games. we already have enough picks this summer.
That was absolutly not the initial proposition of this thread. I personnaly never state that gionta was sucking, and I just presupposed that some GMs may like his intangibles enough in a Cup run to give an interesting return in a trade. It's all pretty far from your assessment.
I'm starting to be sick to read so much "you don't know hockey...", "that's plain stupid...", and other direct or indirect insults every time there is a discussion on this board.
There are solid arguments in this thread, both ways. Why not keeping it at that?
Why do you think that there are GMs who may like Gionta's "intangibles" and Marc Bergevin is not one of those GMs? Why should Gionta be traded to another team for a Cup run when the Canadiens currently reside in first place?
My eyeballs tell me that whole line is playing well not just Bourque and Plekanec. It's not a small coincidence that MT has had that line together basically all year and changed the others many times.
Gionta is not playing bad like Cole plays bad or like DD played bad.
The problem is mainly that plays tend to die on his stick.
At the beginning of the season, I was hoping for 3. Moen – Eller – Gionta as our tough minutes eating line so, here and here alone (!), I agree with you. A 3rd line of Prust – Eller – Gionta would be great!
However Galchenyuk needs ice-time and sheltered minutes so we need to spread our forces on 4 lines. Playing Gionta on 3rd (Galchenyuk is not ready to assume top 2 lines duties and he can’t play on 4th because he needs TOI) with Galchenyuk in a sheltered role would be a waste of Gionta's sound two ways play imo. Right now Eller is a better player than 19 years old Galchenyuk but I totally understand why they kept him with the big club and mid/long terms, it will pay dividend... to the team, Galchenyuk and Eller.
When you wrote “... you actually have to let them be on their way up...”, I guess you were referring to Gionta “obstructing” the way to Eller, right? Well here I disagree again! Eller is growing right before our eyes and he is currently playing his best hockey since he joined us. His play on 3rd/4th often is the main reason why we win games: our bottom lines are better than most of our opponents’ bottom lines with Eller in the line up.
Long story short:
19 years old Galchenyuk is learning
Elller, another young player, is playing his best hockey since joining us
Plekanec’s line is doing a great job
The team is winning
I like the mix and depth upfront but I sure don’t think that everything is perfect. You are right: looking for ways to improve must be a continuous process. I just don’t think that Gionta is on top of the list of priorities. In fact, I think he isn't on the freakin' list!
Not sure I get this. Gionta STRONG 2-WAY PLAY would be a waste alongside a young and still learning Galchenyuk on a 3rd line? How is that? Wouldn't Galchenyuk learn from Gionta? Wouldn't Gionta repair some of the defensive blunders that Gally will make? If Gionta does have an offensive game as some will like to believe...wouldn't he be contributing with Gally? And for some who hopes more offensive like me...wouldn't play with a younger guy like Gally be even profitable for Gionta? I really don't get your point.
And a Eller who is now shining...couldn't he shine even more with guys like Pleks and Bourque. Why limit yourself to see what the ceiling of this or that player can be? And the fact that Eller is shining so much means that we then have a stronger bottom 6 than a lot of teams...okay....but what about putting Gionta there instead? Isn't he supposed to be a top 2-way player? How's Eller more valuable on a bottom 6 than Gionta? For whoever wants to "spread" the talent....isn't it probably even MORE spreading the talent?
Not sure I get this. Gionta STRONG 2-WAY PLAY would be a waste alongside a young and still learning Galchenyuk on a 3rd line? How is that? Wouldn't Galchenyuk learn from Gionta? Wouldn't Gionta repair some of the defensive blunders that Gally will make? If Gionta does have an offensive game as some will like to believe...wouldn't he be contributing with Gally? And for some who hopes more offensive like me...wouldn't play with a younger guy like Gally be even profitable for Gionta? I really don't get your point.
And a Eller who is now shining...couldn't he shine even more with guys like Pleks and Bourque. Why limit yourself to see what the ceiling of this or that player can be? And the fact that Eller is shining so much means that we then have a stronger bottom 6 than a lot of teams...okay....but what about putting Gionta there instead? Isn't he supposed to be a top 2-way player? How's Eller more valuable on a bottom 6 than Gionta? For whoever wants to "spread" the talent....isn't it probably even MORE spreading the talent?
19 years old Galchenyuk needs to receive sheltered minutes. If you put Gionta on his wing, Gionta would also face weaker competition. That would be a waste because, based on his play since he joined us, the guy can play against top competition.
Once everyone is healthy, I expect Eller at C on 4th with Moen and White. That line would receive more ice-time than your usual 4th line and Eller (PK + PP alongside the kids) would receive 13-15 minutes of ice-time per game. Our “4th” line would also be our second “tough minutes” line.
If you absolutely want to remove Gionta from Plekanec’s wing, the only solution, from my point of view, would be to use him on 4th and give the LW spot alongside Plek to Eller. I just can’t see the Habs using their captain on 4th; especially if you factor in how great and productive (see post 113 for their ES and PP contribution) our first line is.
I am curious, you wish for 1. Eller – Plekanec – Bourque. Assuming a healthy line-up, what would be your 2nd, 3rd and 4th line? Btw I think that Prust must play on the top3 lines because it does spread out the toughness.
Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 02-21-2013 at 08:34 PM.
19 years old Galchenyuk needs to receive sheltered minutes. If you put Gionta on his wing, Gionta would also face weaker competition. That would be a waste because, based on his play since he joined us, the guy can play against top competition.
Once everyone is healthy, I expect Eller at C on 4th with Moen and White. That line would receive more ice-time than your usual 4th line and Eller (PK + PP alongside the kids) would receive 13-15 minutes of ice-time per game. Our “4th” line would also be our second “tough minutes” line.
If you absolutely want to remove Gionta from Plekanec’s wing, the only solution, from my point of view, would be to use him on 4th and give the LW spot alongside Plek to Eller. I just can’t see the Habs using their captain on 4th; especially if you factor in how great and productive (see post 113 for their ES and PP contribution) our first line is.
I am curious, you wish for 1. Eller – Plekanec – Bourque. Assuming a healthy line-up, what would be your 2nd, 3rd and 4th line? Btw I think that Prust must play on the top3 lines because it does spread out the toughness.
I would believe in spreading the toughness if we would have the guys to do it. I choose not to on a 3rd line and go with the combination of skills and facing an easier opposition to play against. Would rejuvenate Gionta's game, would help a lot the kids as well.
