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Old
02-03-2013, 09:11 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
And now you've narrowed it down to a set, very slim parameter. That fails to explain why, in general, the team scored less goals with Carle on the ice.
***
The fact remains that in overall play, the team scored less with Carle on the ice than it did with other defensemen...including his partners.
Qualcomp while he is on the ice versus qualcomp while he's not on the ice could prove revalatory there. He took a lot of hard minutes. it would make sense if the team didn't score as much versus the Crosby's of the world as it did the Dubinsky's.

I haven't looked at those stats, don't have the time to sort through them, and don't know who's argument they support, but they're certainly worth looking at.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 02-03-2013 at 11:32 PM. Reason: spelling
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02-03-2013, 10:50 PM
  #52
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I said it last year when everybody was really trashing Carle with so much fad hate that Carle was the type of player that once gone....you would wish you had back. Sure he wasn't my favorite and his lack of shot was almost laughable but he logged big minutes and transitioned well. The fact is we are looking for a puck moving replacement for a reason regardless of whether Carle would have been overpaid. Actually, Holmgren could have handled it much much better than he did and signed him to a somewhat more reasonable contract than Tampa. Holmgren IMO just totally botched the Jagr and Carle situations.

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02-03-2013, 11:03 PM
  #53
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Carle played well for the flyers. He wasn't elite but he played a role for the team and he played it well. Not spectacular or anything but he played at a good level. The problem is he isn't worth the contract he got, and the Flyers didn't really replace him.

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02-03-2013, 11:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Actually, Holmgren could have handled it much much better than he did and signed him to a somewhat more reasonable contract than Tampa. Holmgren IMO just totally botched the Jagr and Carle situations.
I can't see how you would be in any position to say what the Flyers had the opportunity to do. I honestly believe the Flyers were ready to sign something reasonable with Carle until Feaster went full monty on Wideman. That absolutely ruined the market on defensemen.

I wouldn't have wanted Carle for 5M a season for the term he got. Sometimes you need to take a step back to take a step forward and it's impossible to judge how Holmgren truly did on these deals for the next couple of years when you see the moves that would have been impossible to make with a bloated Carle or Jagr contract.

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02-03-2013, 11:42 PM
  #55
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Carle was a good player, but he took advantage of a weak FA class. I think the Flyers will ultimately be better off not matching the contract he got from Tampa.

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02-21-2013, 03:28 PM
  #56
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I think Carle is/was a good, durable, utility D-man who could play in all situations but not really excel in any of them. Given the injuries and such it would have been a nice luxury to have retained his services, but I'm happy it wasn't the Flyers paying him that deal.

One thing puzzles me though. One of the things his proponents claim about him is that he's such a good puck mover. Can anyone tell me how/why they believe Carle is seen by some as this great puck mover? I mean, he didn't really skate the puck out of the D zone much at all, like you see from the better puck moving d men in the league. His primary M.O. when starting from his own end was to go behind the net, move over a little and if the (risky) stretch or cross ice pass wasn't there, get it to his D partner. I mean how many times did he just simply pass to Pronger who would then make an excellent outlet or skate it out and up to the red line and fire it on net? It was a lot. In my recollection, it was rare that Carle was really keying the breakout. In the O zone it's not like he was some great puck distributor or PP QB. Can anyone that feels Carle is/was a great puck mover describe to me in specific terms exactly what he did out there that made him such a good puck mover? I just don't see it.

Carle didn't win a lot of puck battles along the defensive boards so it's not like if he was here all of the sudden the team would be clearing pucks with ease. It's not like the team didn't have times hemmed in their own end when Carle was here (really, it happens to all teams at least once or twice a game).

And I'll say this, looking at the past couple of games and some of the others where the team played well, guys like Grossman and Gervais and Schenn repeatedly make puck moving plays out of the zone on par or better than Carle, while being more stalwart and physical on D. All of those guys are underrated in terms of moving the puck from what I've seen.

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02-21-2013, 03:37 PM
  #57
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I didn't mind Carle when he was here, but he's not worth 5.5 for 6 years. I think Gus's ceiling is Carle, both have a similar style in the sense they can move the puck well, skating is decent.. not overly physical and they don't have the heaviest shots. Effective at what they do I suppose.

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02-21-2013, 03:48 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think Carle is/was a good, durable, utility D-man who could play in all situations but not really excel in any of them. Given the injuries and such it would have been a nice luxury to have retained his services, but I'm happy it wasn't the Flyers paying him that deal.

One thing puzzles me though. One of the things his proponents claim about him is that he's such a good puck mover. Can anyone tell me how/why they believe Carle is seen by some as this great puck mover? I mean, he didn't really skate the puck out of the D zone much at all, like you see from the better puck moving d men in the league. His primary M.O. when starting from his own end was to go behind the net, move over a little and if the (risky) stretch or cross ice pass wasn't there, get it to his D partner. I mean how many times did he just simply pass to Pronger who would then make an excellent outlet or skate it out and up to the red line and fire it on net? It was a lot. In my recollection, it was rare that Carle was really keying the breakout. In the O zone it's not like he was some great puck distributor or PP QB. Can anyone that feels Carle is/was a great puck mover describe to me in specific terms exactly what he did out there that made him such a good puck mover? I just don't see it.

Carle didn't win a lot of puck battles along the defensive boards so it's not like if he was here all of the sudden the team would be clearing pucks with ease. It's not like the team didn't have times hemmed in their own end when Carle was here (really, it happens to all teams at least once or twice a game).

And I'll say this, looking at the past couple of games and some of the others where the team played well, guys like Grossman and Gervais and Schenn repeatedly make puck moving plays out of the zone on par or better than Carle, while being more stalwart and physical on D. All of those guys are underrated in terms of moving the puck from what I've seen.
He made a lot of short, efficient passes and was able to separate himself from forecheckers. He was able to anticipate the neutral zone traffic and and distribute the puck accordingly. You're grossly misrepresenting what he did on the breakout. Those subtle plays are vastly more effective than low percentage stretch passes, but they are also less dramatic and noticeable, meaning a lot of Carle's work goes unappreciated by fans. To suggest that Schenn, Grossman and Gervais are better puck movers is ridiculous.

You're right about the offensive zone though, he wasn't a great PP QB.

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Old
02-21-2013, 05:29 PM
  #59
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I havent missed Carle and his bad decision making one second. Even with the injuries.

Hes just not worth his asking price. 500K less than Kimmo? Come on.

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02-21-2013, 05:31 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I said it last year when everybody was really trashing Carle with so much fad hate that Carle was the type of player that once gone....you would wish you had back. Sure he wasn't my favorite and his lack of shot was almost laughable but he logged big minutes and transitioned well. The fact is we are looking for a puck moving replacement for a reason regardless of whether Carle would have been overpaid. Actually, Holmgren could have handled it much much better than he did and signed him to a somewhat more reasonable contract than Tampa. Holmgren IMO just totally botched the Jagr and Carle situations.
So you didn't want to go after Weber and/or Suter and Parise? Because it woudlnt have happenned with Jagr and Carle at 4.5 and 5.5

10million cap hit for those 2 is laughable.

edit: He didnt botch anything, he had a choice to make. Those 2 or gamble on Weber and Parise. No brainer any way you look at it.
Flyers wouldnt have been any closer to a cup with Jagr and Carle, they sure as hell woulda been with Weber and Parise.

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02-21-2013, 05:35 PM
  #61
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We'd be a better team with him but I feel his cap hit would be better spent elsewhere.

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02-21-2013, 06:09 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
We'd be a better team with him but I feel his cap hit would be better spent elsewhere.
Problem is they didn't really spend it elsewhere, and don't really have a means of doing so. If your theory is that its free cap space for the future, we already know the Flyers don't think that far ahead. Paul Holmgren has already demonstrated that he can't think 2 weeks ahead. In the summer.

The following players, to some degree, are considered garbage by a fair number of people around here:

Shelley - 1.1M
Gervais - 825K
Foster - 950K
Knuble - 750K
Rinaldo - 544K
Sestito - 625K
Fedotenko - 1.75M
Lilja - 737K

These are essentially waste on our roster. Some of them only are in the mix out of necessity because of injuries. You'd probably be forced to keep at least 2 of these guys, but put together, it's over $7.281M. Other than those who are blatant Carle haters, to which they won't respond to this objectively (including all the back breaking turnovers that ended up in our net, which didn't happen), there wouldn't be a second thought if Yzerman offered Carle back for these 8 guys.

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02-21-2013, 06:17 PM
  #63
Norm MacDonald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Problem is they didn't really spend it elsewhere, and don't really have a means of doing so. If your theory is that its free cap space for the future, we already know the Flyers don't think that far ahead. Paul Holmgren has already demonstrated that he can't think 2 weeks ahead. In the summer.

The following players, to some degree, are considered garbage by a fair number of people around here:

Shelley - 1.1M
Gervais - 825K
Foster - 950K
Knuble - 750K
Rinaldo - 544K
Sestito - 625K
Fedotenko - 1.75M
Lilja - 737K

These are essentially waste on our roster. Some of them only are in the mix out of necessity because of injuries. You'd probably be forced to keep at least 2 of these guys, but put together, it's over $7.281M. Other than those who are blatant Carle haters, to which they won't respond to this objectively (including all the back breaking turnovers that ended up in our net, which didn't happen), there wouldn't be a second thought if Yzerman offered Carle back for these 8 guys.
That's not exactly fair, because if you would still need to fill roster spots. If all of those guys were replaced by league-minimum contracts, you'd only save ~$3M.

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02-21-2013, 06:19 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Problem is they didn't really spend it elsewhere, and don't really have a means of doing so. If your theory is that its free cap space for the future, we already know the Flyers don't think that far ahead. Paul Holmgren has already demonstrated that he can't think 2 weeks ahead. In the summer.

The following players, to some degree, are considered garbage by a fair number of people around here:

Shelley - 1.1M
Gervais - 825K
Foster - 950K
Knuble - 750K
Rinaldo - 544K
Sestito - 625K
Fedotenko - 1.75M
Lilja - 737K

These are essentially waste on our roster. Some of them only are in the mix out of necessity because of injuries. You'd probably be forced to keep at least 2 of these guys, but put together, it's over $7.281M. Other than those who are blatant Carle haters, to which they won't respond to this objectively (including all the back breaking turnovers that ended up in our net, which didn't happen), there wouldn't be a second thought if Yzerman offered Carle back for these 8 guys.

Those are all short term commitment role players. It wont amper their chances at landing big fish in the FA market like Carle (6 years...) would of had. Its simple as that.

edit: It wasnt just back breaking turnovers, the guy had bad decision making. His stupid plays would lead to goals. I dont expect you to understand this but he doesn't have to put it on an opponent stick in the slot for it to be a bad turnover or bad decision making.

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02-21-2013, 06:25 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
That's not exactly fair, because if you would still need to fill roster spots. If all of those guys were replaced by league-minimum contracts, you'd only save ~$3M.
Here are the players I left out:

McGinn
Zolnierczyk
Bourdon
Gustafsson

Knuble wasn't on the roster until after the season started, and Foster was only signed right after the lockout. They obviously had no intention on a meaningful on-ice role for Shelley. Gustafsson and Bourdon both were hurt to start the NHL season, but they still do have Manning and could have still afforded Gervais' cap number.

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02-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #66
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It was obvious last year the cap would be dropping, so saving space as a Plan C isn't a terrible move.

Whether or not Homer thought that far in advance and did it consciously is a different matter.

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02-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Problem is they didn't really spend it elsewhere, and don't really have a means of doing so. If your theory is that its free cap space for the future, we already know the Flyers don't think that far ahead. Paul Holmgren has already demonstrated that he can't think 2 weeks ahead. In the summer.

The following players, to some degree, are considered garbage by a fair number of people around here:

Shelley - 1.1M
Gervais - 825K
Foster - 950K
Knuble - 750K
Rinaldo - 544K
Sestito - 625K
Fedotenko - 1.75M
Lilja - 737K

These are essentially waste on our roster. Some of them only are in the mix out of necessity because of injuries. You'd probably be forced to keep at least 2 of these guys, but put together, it's over $7.281M. Other than those who are blatant Carle haters, to which they won't respond to this objectively (including all the back breaking turnovers that ended up in our net, which didn't happen), there wouldn't be a second thought if Yzerman offered Carle back for these 8 guys.
If Carle would have signed a 1 year deal, then it would validate your point, but Carle's deal would have hamstrung us for more than this season. Just because we were unsuccessful in throwing the money out there doesn't mean we will be for the duration of the contract.

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02-21-2013, 06:32 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Here are the players I left out:

McGinn
Zolnierczyk
Bourdon
Gustafsson

Knuble wasn't on the roster until after the season started, and Foster was only signed right after the lockout. They obviously had no intention on a meaningful on-ice role for Shelley. Gustafsson and Bourdon both were hurt to start the NHL season, but they still do have Manning and could have still afforded Gervais' cap number.
They were signed to replace injured players. When the team gets healthy, guys like Zolnierczyk are sent back to the AHL. Not nearly all those guys will count towards the cap at the same time (and even fewer with the old CBA, when Carle was signed).

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02-21-2013, 06:40 PM
  #69
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If Carle would have signed a 1 year deal, then it would validate your point, but Carle's deal would have hamstrung us for more than this season. Just because we were unsuccessful in throwing the money out there doesn't mean we will be for the duration of the contract.
Not really. They blow most of the extra cap space every year, and still get to amnesty Briere if it comes to it. Which they wouldn't have absolutely had to do. That's with Timonen staying, too.

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They were signed to replace injured players. When the team gets healthy, guys like Zolnierczyk are sent back to the AHL. Not nearly all those guys will count towards the cap at the same time (and even fewer with the old CBA, when Carle was signed).
They're replaced by guys with similar cap hits. Many people here agree McGinn shouldn't go back to the Phantoms anyways, so that's one guy replaced. Also, they haven't yet put Pronger or Walker in LTIR. Those are allowances they're not utilizing that they otherwise could be. I even forgot to mention Wellwood made the opening day roster.

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02-21-2013, 06:42 PM
  #70
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Not really. They blow most of the extra cap space every year, and still get to amnesty Briere if it comes to it. Which they wouldn't have absolutely had to do. That's with Timonen staying, too.
I don't think it was so obvious that there would be an amnesty (or 2) at the time nor was it clear where the salary cap long term would be. You're taking advantage of your current knowledge to make a thesis on how Holmgren screwed up by not dramatically overpaying Carle.

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02-21-2013, 06:43 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It was obvious last year the cap would be dropping, so saving space as a Plan C isn't a terrible move.

Whether or not Homer thought that far in advance and did it consciously is a different matter.
Lol. So he makes a decision you agree with and you question whether or not it was a conscious decision. And you wonder why I say people on here biased against Homer.

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02-21-2013, 06:51 PM
  #72
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Lol. So he makes a decision you agree with and you question whether or not it was a conscious decision. And you wonder why I say people on here biased against Homer.
Do tell...what has Holmgren ever done capwise that makes you think he gives more than a passing thought to the following year? Cap management is one of his big weak points.

Edit: It's not bias when he's indicated throughout his tenure that cap considerations get little consideration overall. That's a reasonable assumption based on his past actions.

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02-21-2013, 06:59 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
They're replaced by guys with similar cap hits. Many people here agree McGinn shouldn't go back to the Phantoms anyways, so that's one guy replaced. Also, they haven't yet put Pronger or Walker in LTIR. Those are allowances they're not utilizing that they otherwise could be. I even forgot to mention Wellwood made the opening day roster.
You're not getting it. You can't just add up all the small contracts and say that's the equivalent of one big contract. That's not how it works.

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02-21-2013, 07:04 PM
  #74
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I don't think it was so obvious that there would be an amnesty (or 2) at the time nor was it clear where the salary cap long term would be. You're taking advantage of your current knowledge to make a thesis on how Holmgren screwed up by not dramatically overpaying Carle.
It was understood more than a year ago that there would be some sort of amnesty clause in the new CBA.

And it wasn't an overpayment. Go check out how much 20-minute defensemen are making post-free agency.

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You're not getting it. You can't just add up all the small contracts and say that's the equivalent of one big contract. That's not how it works.
It can when they're all terrible players. We're not talking about future core players here, we're talking about rubbish.

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02-21-2013, 07:07 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Do tell...what has Holmgren ever done capwise that makes you think he gives more than a passing thought to the following year? Cap management is one of his big weak points.

Edit: It's not bias when he's indicated throughout his tenure that cap considerations get little consideration overall. That's a reasonable assumption based on his past actions.
Ok ok. No bias. Next time he makes bad move and I defend it I guess I wouldn't be biased or a Homer apologist then, I guess because I think he has done a good job in the past.

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