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Tambo, the obvious truth is before you...

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:20 PM
  #101
Beerfish
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Horcoff was playing the tough minutes in previous years, and getting eaten up for it.

So.... how is the Oilers first line looking right now with tougher minutes?
They are in fact doing better than Horcoff was because they can score the odd goal. Horcoff has showed what he can do as an actual 3rd line player at the end of last year and this year. The answer is nothing at all.

And as the the usual tough minutes bit. He is the only player on the team that people trot out that term for. Wingers? who cares, Hemksy is a dog or Smythe is terrible and yet Horcoff is the only guy that gets praised for tough minutes or 'sheltering'.

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02-21-2013, 05:48 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Sorry thats just an outright myth.

Name the 20 year old dominant players in the league please.

Unless you're suggesting that RNH, Hall and Yakupov is as good as they're going to get, and they won't improve.

Good lord people where do you come up with the ideas.





Sorry BBO, nope not correct either. We're not losing games because our bottom six isn't scoring enough. Unless you're suggesting that our top line is scoring enough for the team to win? They're not.



Look, what I see in this thread is a lot of myths and personal biases as to what the team "should look like" as cures for what ails the Oilers.

Its not because the Oilers aren't big enough. Its not because of Horcoff (you guys know he's injured right?). Its not because the bottom six isn't scoring.

To know the answer - what is the Oilers bottom in the league right now?

Even strength scoring. Krueger is matching our top two lines against others top two lines, and they're getting munched at even strength.

The fact that our top line isn't good enough RIGHT NOW. As much as you adore Hall, RNH and Eberle - they're simply not good enough to outplay Thornton, Marleau and the Sedins.

Our second line isn't good enough to beat other teams second lines.

You can make all the trades you want in the bottom six, it simply isn't going to matter. We have to wait for the kids to develop. RNH is going to get better. So will Yakupov, Hall and Eberle.
ML, I could not agree more. And RDR, you have to give your Horcoff hate a day off. The man has not played a minute in weeks! This team, like a fine wine, needs some time. That top line is young but keeping it's head above water. Next season we have help coming in the form of some solid defensive upgrades in Klefbom and maybe Musil. This team needs time. If the absolute right trade was there to upgrade at center then maybe use some of our famous 1st round picks in 2013/14. But this team is maturing, growing together and that shared experience is going to pay off in spades down the line.

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Old
02-21-2013, 06:59 PM
  #103
Trafalgar McLaw
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
Agree to disagree. I will just make my pitch... Petry has offensive upside but his defense is terrible. Boychuk has a cup plays 25 minutes a night and my second team is Boston so i watch about 5 hours of Boston games a week. Boychuk is what he is... a RHD smid.

Our weakest hole is the RHD position which is also hampering JSchultz since he is the only one worth playing on that side.

Boychuk is a bust? Did you think he was Pronger 2.0 or Lidstrom 2.0? Also you are switching picks not giving the first. Boychuk is also, like Boyle, one of the best dressing room guys on the team and a complete professional.
Boychuk is what he is and what he is is sorely needed on the Oilers. Petry is in his spot right now so the move makes most sense.

BTw Boychuk is a local boy but for me that is just coincidence as i never care about that stuff.
I mixed up Boychuk and Caron lol

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:10 PM
  #104
Moonlapse Vertigo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Sorry thats just an outright myth.

Name the 20 year old dominant players in the league please.

Unless you're suggesting that RNH, Hall and Yakupov is as good as they're going to get, and they won't improve.

Good lord people where do you come up with the ideas.
Nobody is saying that RNH, Hall and Yakupov aren't going to improve but it's foolish to think that they're just going to figure it all out once they turn oh, let's pick a random number, say... 23, and drag this team out of the muck. If they're not capable at this juncture then Krueger and the organization should be handling them differently.

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02-21-2013, 07:22 PM
  #105
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I am typicaly a huge advocator of making our top 6 bigger even at the expense of trading away some our our elite talent.

Krueger has changed my tune a bit. His utilization of our the top line Hall RNH & Eberle has been overall very successful. The shots are not going in but they are way out chancing all thier opponents. Often enough they are playing against the opponents top lines as well.

Our second line has been getting offensive zone starts and is being sheltered. It is leading to a mixed bag but with our talent we are seeing some nice scoring.

Third line is a true third line with checking and grit as is our 4th.

He has split our top 6 as skill and our bottom 6 as grit where as others have tried to blend the lines too much to provide "balance".

I don't know if I want to keep this set up at the risk of not making the playoffs but the system seems to be very close to putting it all together.

From the games I have watched I could easily see us turning it around if the following happened:

Line one starts scoring like they were last year. = more wins.

Line two keeps scoring but tightens up defensively a bit. Yak matures a bit, Gags and Hem settle down and start checking the rearview mirrors more. = more wins.

Line 3 & 4. Production has been very low from this group. Jones will help immensly. Score a few more goals. = more wins.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:40 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Why does it have to require a sacrifice of a roster player? What was the point of stockpiling prospects for the past few years if not to have options for trade? I keep saying it, but it's true: the kind of trades people here are talking about making just don't happen in today's NHL unless there's some kind of extenuating circumstance.
because the top 6 forward with size and grit are a rarer breed and equally as valuable (even more valuable) as the Hemskys or Yakupovs. It will take a core top 6 player to get one of these.

who would you rather have to help you win a cup, Ovechkin or Lucic? (I guess that's already been answered). who has the rarer skill set? who is the most unstoppable?

the Lucic-type is new most valuable forward. not the Kovalchuck.

to get a Zach Kassian, we will need to sacrifice a Gagner + (which we should have done)

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02-21-2013, 07:42 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
because the top 6 forward with size and grit are a rarer breed and equally as valuable (even more valuable) as the Hemskys or Yakupovs. It will take a core top 6 player to get one of these.

who would you rather have to help you win a cup, Ovechkin or Lucic? (I guess that's already been answered). who has the rarer skill set? who is the most unstoppable?

the Lucic-type is new most valuable forward. not the Kovalchuck.

to get a Zach Kassian, we will need to sacrifice a Gagner + (which we should have done)
Not to derail the thread but a prime Ovy on the Bruins over Lucic is probably a team that wins 2-3 Cups IMO.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:44 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Nobody is saying that RNH, Hall and Yakupov aren't going to improve but it's foolish to think that they're just going to figure it all out once they turn oh, let's pick a random number, say... 23, and drag this team out of the muck. If they're not capable at this juncture then Krueger and the organization should be handling them differently.
I'm pretty sure he's saying its a gradual improvment, not that it's going to be sudden (that is your own baseless assumption). But besides that it really isn't uncommon for players to suddenly breakout in terms of production, we may be seeing it with young Samwise. You are clearly wrong, players of the age that 5 of our top 6 are not typically able to lead their teams in a dominant faction. In fact most players make the NHL 22 and after.

http://www.quanthockey.com/Distribut...stribution.php

I know we aren't discussing average players here but it's still not typical for players of a young age to be dominant to the point they can lead a team out of the basement as easily and quickly as you are suggesting.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:47 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
First -- to be honest i have zero faith in Tambi and the thought of him actually making a big trade makes me squeemish. I dont think he knows how to talk to other GMs though so i think he will continue to leave this team with huge holes to be filled "in time...maybe...maybe not". in time those holes will be filled just as others are made. yay. constant suckage as Tambi drives this train of suckage on the fuel of suckage to a record of consistant suckage.

This is the time of year where GMs meet with their scouts too so normally end of feb GMs have the prospects on their minds alot which can increase your relative DP value as a bottom team. Normally bottom teams dont del those picks though.

TO BOS
Edm 1st
Petry
Roy

To EDM
Bos 1st
Boychuk
Caron


-----
TO NYR
Jones
Edm 2nd

To EDM
Boyle
both of these deals are terrible. Caron is a scrub and Boychuk I like him but not switching our 1st for him. Boyle isn't either worth a 2nd and you want to give Jones also. I would like to get Boyle but not for that cost.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:48 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Not to derail the thread but a prime Ovy on the Bruins over Lucic is probably a team that wins 2-3 Cups IMO.
maybe, but not actually proven. where as Lucic has proven he can be a very valuable piece in winning a stanely cup. so did the Buf.

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02-21-2013, 07:48 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
because the top 6 forward with size and grit are a rarer breed and equally as valuable (even more valuable) as the Hemskys or Yakupovs. It will take a core top 6 player to get one of these.

who would you rather have to help you win a cup, Ovechkin or Lucic? (I guess that's already been answered). who has the rarer skill set? who is the most unstoppable?

the Lucic-type is new most valuable forward. not the Kovalchuck.

to get a Zach Kassian, we will need to sacrifice a Gagner + (which we should have done)
Would I pay Gagner plus for Lucic yes but for Kassian ther is no way.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:49 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Would I pay Gagner plus for Lucic yes but for Kassian ther is no way.
only way you get Lucic for Gagner + is if the + is J. Schultz or Yak.

Gagner and a 2nd for Kassian? in a heartbeat. Tambo blew it when Kassian was available. he should have topped the Cody Hodgeson offer.

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Old
02-21-2013, 09:16 PM
  #113
Moose Coleman
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
because the top 6 forward with size and grit are a rarer breed and equally as valuable (even more valuable) as the Hemskys or Yakupovs. It will take a core top 6 player to get one of these.

who would you rather have to help you win a cup, Ovechkin or Lucic? (I guess that's already been answered). who has the rarer skill set? who is the most unstoppable?

the Lucic-type is new most valuable forward. not the Kovalchuck.

to get a Zach Kassian, we will need to sacrifice a Gagner + (which we should have done)
That's a lot of nonsense.

First: you just don't see quality for quality trades in today's NHL.

Second: the Lucic/Ovi comparison is completely facile. Too many variables at play, starting with a certain giant Slovak. And anyone who would take Lucic over Kovalchuk, well, I wonder if they watch hockey or just tune in for Coach's Corner.

Finally, Kassian? SO overrated. Playing with the Sedins makes anyone look pretty good. Plug.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:04 PM
  #114
Up the Irons
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well, all you patient believers, still think a team of nifty stickhandling, thru-the-legs-backpassers are gonna eventually win the cup?

Keep Hall, RNH, Eberled and Schultz and move the rest for size.

it is only a matter of time for you to move over to the dark side.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:09 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
well, all you patient believers, still think a team of nifty stickhandling, thru-the-legs-backpassers are gonna eventually win the cup?

Keep Hall, RNH, Eberled and Schultz and move the rest for size.

it is only a matter of time for you to move over to the dark side.
You've finally convinced me. I was staying pat for all this time! I cant stand watching this team play any longer! Something has to give!

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:37 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
That's a lot of nonsense.

First: you just don't see quality for quality trades in today's NHL.

Second: the Lucic/Ovi comparison is completely facile. Too many variables at play, starting with a certain giant Slovak. And anyone who would take Lucic over Kovalchuk, well, I wonder if they watch hockey or just tune in for Coach's Corner.

Finally, Kassian? SO overrated. Playing with the Sedins makes anyone look pretty good. Plug.
Would he Look good with RNH and Ebs?

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Old
02-22-2013, 08:35 AM
  #117
Moose Coleman
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Originally Posted by Madmax53 View Post
Would he Look good with RNH and Ebs?
Those guys have enough problems right now.

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