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All-Encompassing Tortorella/Sather Thread

View Poll Results: A quarter of the way through the 2013 season, do you approve or disapprove of Torts?
Approve 168 50.45%
Disapprove 165 49.55%
Voters: 333. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:39 AM
  #201
Megustaelhockey
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Doing a google image search for "torts" is hilarious. Before any pictures of the coach making weird faces, you get a picture of two tortoises doing it.

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02-21-2013, 12:02 PM
  #202
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The PP has always been ****, save for when Jagr was here.

Its not a personnel issue, its a coaching issue.

The revolving door of talent has yielded nothing and proves that coaching matters more than most think.

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02-21-2013, 12:33 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
That what I'm saying. This system works great for Ryan Callahans of the world, what about the actual guys you pay top dollars??
It's been working pretty well for Gaborik his entire time here save for some short stretches like the one he's in now. Is he a Ryan Callahan? Do those 100+ goals just not count?

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02-21-2013, 12:55 PM
  #204
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It's been working pretty well for Gaborik his entire time here save for some short stretches like the one he's in now. Is he a Ryan Callahan? Do those 100+ goals just not count?

You still wouldnt prefer Gaborik, Richards and Nash in a more open system?

With the best goalie in the world backing you up and a top blueline, I think we can afford to.

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02-21-2013, 01:02 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
It's been working pretty well for Gaborik his entire time here save for some short stretches like the one he's in now. Is he a Ryan Callahan? Do those 100+ goals just not count?
Sure they count, but maybe he's not the same player. He's getting older, and banged up, and he's not the main offensive star for the first time.

Every player needs to be rubbed the right way. Treating them all one way seems lazy, uninspired and a bit too overboard on certain aspects of the game.

Anyone who has watched the NHL for awhile realizes that most players, even top players have up and down years. Ryan Callahan gives his body every game, but he doesnt always bring an all around game does he? Our top player, maybe our only real Star has down months, but he's a goalie with alot of time to get his game on.

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02-21-2013, 01:21 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
You still wouldnt prefer Gaborik, Richards and Nash in a more open system?

With the best goalie in the world backing you up and a top blueline, I think we can afford to.
As I wrote earlier in the thread, I'd prefer Nash in a more open system along with players like McD and Hags. Richards, so far, doesn't look like he can handle this system, let alone a more complicated, more open one. I'm sure he'll improve but as of now, no I don't want him playing more open because every time he tries to get fancy he makes an boneheaded mistake. Gaborik played in MIN and here - neither was very open, yet he's had an incredible career and under this "closed" system he's been nothing short of spectacular so far looking at the big picture, that is, not letting 15 games override hundreds.

I don't think it's wise to up and change strategy in the middle of a condensed season when a team is doing alright. I think this team would be playing a smarter, more nuanced style if they had a full camp and a preseason to make the necessary tweaks. Given that they haven't, I don't think it's wise to change everything right now. They look like they're not executing on an individual basis. They need to play through the rough patch - not overhaul the entire thing mid season because they're only tied for eighth a quarter of the way through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Sure they count, but maybe he's not the same player. He's getting older, and banged up, and he's not the main offensive star for the first time.

Every player needs to be rubbed the right way. Treating them all one way seems lazy, uninspired and a bit too overboard on certain aspects of the game.

Anyone who has watched the NHL for awhile realizes that most players, even top players have up and down years. Ryan Callahan gives his body every game, but he doesnt always bring an all around game does he? Our top player, maybe our only real Star has down months, but he's a goalie with alot of time to get his game on.
The point you made was that "the system" doesn't work for skill guys. I said it works for Gaborik and the proof is right out there to see. The "system" isn't holding him back. It literally never has his entire time he's been here. Maybe he's struggling because he's not the same player - but maybe he's struggling becuase everyone on the team looks a step behind save for a handful of guys and no player is at their peak all the time. Either way, it's not the style of play at the root of his struggles. He's thrived under this style for a long, long time. We're not even halfway through a short season. He was "older" and "banged up" last year and he had 41 goals.

Implementing a team system isn't about treating all players one way. Every team has a system that the players need to buy into. "We're going to play X type of game, boys, that's how were going to win." That's not lazy or uninspired, that's choosing an identity and every team does it. Also, Torts doesn't treat everyone the same IMO. Guys who are built to play hard hockey and block shots are obviously counted on to do those things more often for example. Gaborik isn't getting kept off the ice because he's not blocking shots on playing hard on the boards. He doesn't do either of those things well but he scores and he's almost always getting top 6 minutes. I don't think he's treated the same way as guys like Callahan at all. If Callahan played like Gaborik does, he'd be hearing from the coach for good reason. That's not his game. He doesn't lurk and then snipe. He needs to be on the wall. He needs to be first on the forecheck. He needs to hit everything that moves.

Again, this all happened last year. These same. exact. points. came up over and over. Teams take time to come together. It'd be great if they stormed out of the gate like Chicago, but they didn't. That doesn't mean you need to overhaul the entire thing or that the style of play all of a sudden affects the same players in an opposite way.

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02-21-2013, 01:28 PM
  #207
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torts is a defensive coach. hes a counter puncher. while he preaches an attacking style, hes really a guy who teaches a system that minimizes mistakes and sacrifices offensive pressure.

* this team is a defensive team first.
* torts thinks from the goal out. in that order.
* offense is a byproduct of his 5 in the box system.
* this team doesnt think offense. it thinks turnovers, forecheck and help defense. any offense is created from defense.

if the system isnt clicking, the team will look slow, lifeless and unable to back up its opponent. forget about coming back form 2 goals deficits.

this system stifles offensive creativity and in fact, punishes it. any torts player who thinks offense first is an outcast and rewarded with less ice time and a diminished role. look back at players who failed here.

guys who come here with an offense/shooter mentality are turned into ryan callahan or they are gone.

and we surprised that the powerplay struggles. its the only ALL OFFENSE part of the game.

replace torts and sully. then this team will open up and start to win games by dominating rather than maybe getting ahead and hanging on....

the sabres fired ruff. we can fire torts.

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02-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
torts is a defensive coach. hes a counter puncher. while he preaches an attacking style, hes really a guy who teaches a system that minimizes mistakes and sacrifices offensive pressure.

* this team is a defensive team first.
* torts thinks from the goal out. in that order.
* offense is a byproduct of his 5 in the box system.
* this team doesnt think offense. it thinks turnovers, forecheck and help defense. any offense is created from defense.

if the system isnt clicking, the team will look slow, lifeless and unable to back up its opponent. forget about coming back form 2 goals deficits.

this system stifles offensive creativity and in fact, punishes it. any torts player who thinks offense first is an outcast and rewarded with less ice time and a diminished role. look back at players who failed here.

guys who come here with an offense/shooter mentality are turned into ryan callahan or they are gone
.

and we surprised that the powerplay struggles. its the only ALL OFFENSE part of the game.

replace torts and sully. then this team will open up and start to win games by dominating rather than maybe getting ahead and hanging on....

the sabres fired ruff. we can fire torts.
Please provide some examples of players who played well rounded games being punished for being offensively creative. Nash is creative. Gaborik is creative. Richards is supposed to be creative though he's fighting it right now. Those guys get top minutes night in and night out. Big punishment. Guys like PAP and Zucc didn't play well rounded games and they still don't. They found teams that care less about that sort of thing and they're fitting in there. Good for them.

Gaborik is the model of a "shooter mentality" and he's thrived here. Hasn't turned to Callahan. Hasn't been driven out. He's been handed first line minutes and put up great goalscoring numbers year after year.

As for Ruff - his team didn't have success like NYR had just last season in years and years. They aren't comparable at all.

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02-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #209
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Bottom line is the team can't handle any kind of adversity. Why? Maybe the pieces are being fit into the wrong spots. Maybe.

But, It's never the coaches fault, its always Stepan. Or Gaborik. Or Nash not scoring. Or Hank let in two bad goals this year. Or Cass Marques is not using the right conditioning oil on the gloves.

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02-21-2013, 01:40 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Bottom line is the team can't handle any kind of adversity. Why? Maybe the pieces are being fit into the wrong spots. Maybe.

But, It's never the coaches fault, its always Stepan. Or Gaborik. Or Nash not scoring. Or Hank let in two bad goals this year. Or Cass Marques is not using the right conditioning oil on the gloves.
I've been *****ing about this for years.

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02-21-2013, 01:41 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Bottom line is the team can't handle any kind of adversity. Why? Maybe the pieces are being fit into the wrong spots. Maybe.

But, It's never the coaches fault, its always Stepan. Or Gaborik. Or Nash not scoring. Or Hank let in two bad goals this year. Or Cass Marques is not using the right conditioning oil on the gloves.
For me, the bottom line is that the arguments about why it's Torts' fault always fall apart and lead to the subject changing.

The team that had 109 points last year and won two game sevens can't handle adversity? News to me. This year, they're having all sorts of trouble. Again, its the beginning of a season in a format that won't be repeated for a decade, if ever. Even so, they've handled adversity in a few of the very small number of times that they've encountered it. Was winning that game in the SO after blowing a lead not handling adversity?

My point isn't that it's never the coaches fault - it's that it's very, very rarely just the coaches fault. Torts is a polarizing figure and people LOVE to hate him. Look at the arguments for firing him around here - they're shallow and when confronted with counter arguments they break down and turn to vague generalizations. Because they're emotional arguments. They aren't based in anything but people's frustration with the entire team's performance.

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02-21-2013, 01:45 PM
  #212
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I've been *****ing about this for years.
I think he's using rawling's on the Pasta sauce and Olive oil on the gloves

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02-21-2013, 01:49 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
For me, the bottom line is that the arguments about why it's Torts' fault always fall apart and lead to the subject changing.

The team that had 109 points last year and won two game sevens can't handle adversity? News to me. This year, they're having all sorts of trouble. Again, its the beginning of a season in a format that won't be repeated for a decade, if ever. Even so, they've handled adversity in a few of the very small number of times that they've encountered it. Was winning that game in the SO after blowing a lead not handling adversity?

My point isn't that it's never the coaches fault - it's that it's very, very rarely just the coaches fault. Torts is a polarizing figure and people LOVE to hate him. Look at the arguments for firing him around here - they're shallow and when confronted with counter arguments they break down and turn to vague generalizations. Because they're emotional arguments. They aren't based in anything but people's frustration with the entire team's performance.
The best arguments are among those awful ones you're pointing too - and they all say he does not adapt, on anything, period. We had 109 points worth of defensive and goaltender brilliance. Absolutely we did. What happened when that doesn't work? Right, it's a process with all the new pieces, now that's nothing new to Ranger fans.

Next level I was told upon this coaches entrance......

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02-21-2013, 03:05 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Sure they count, but maybe he's not the same player. He's getting older, and banged up, and he's not the main offensive star for the first time.

Every player needs to be rubbed the right way. Treating them all one way seems lazy, uninspired and a bit too overboard on certain aspects of the game.

Anyone who has watched the NHL for awhile realizes that most players, even top players have up and down years. Ryan Callahan gives his body every game, but he doesnt always bring an all around game does he? Our top player, maybe our only real Star has down months, but he's a goalie with alot of time to get his game on.
Careful, your ignorance is showing. Torts treats everyone the same way all the time? Maybe in the bizzaro universe, but not in this one.

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02-21-2013, 03:14 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Careful, your ignorance is showing. Torts treats everyone the same way all the time? Maybe in the bizzaro universe, but not in this one.
You're right, he is apt to play favorites and give unwarranted ice time to goofs with no hands and poor skating because they play a "strong" defensive game.

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02-21-2013, 03:16 PM
  #216
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Careful, your ignorance is showing. Torts treats everyone the same way all the time? Maybe in the bizzaro universe, but not in this one.
Oh he has his favorites.

They are few. What I was referring to was the system on the ice.

So yes, most of the team he tries to turn into the collective middle keeping all comers outside. When they do get in its usually a disaster, then SuperHank swoops in. The team has a great goaltender and pretty solid defense for the most part. The offense should come from great defense according to our coach. Neutralize even strength, win it on the PK & PP. Sounds great on paper. How's the execution been? Enough of this 'no preseason' stuff, they've had just as long as all the other teams ahead of them.

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02-21-2013, 04:26 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
You're right, he is apt to play favorites and give unwarranted ice time to goofs with no hands and poor skating because they play a "strong" defensive game.
So you don't think playing the right way warrants more ice time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Oh he has his favorites.

They are few. What I was referring to was the system on the ice.

So yes, most of the team he tries to turn into the collective middle keeping all comers outside. When they do get in its usually a disaster, then SuperHank swoops in. The team has a great goaltender and pretty solid defense for the most part. The offense should come from great defense according to our coach. Neutralize even strength, win it on the PK & PP. Sounds great on paper. How's the execution been? Enough of this 'no preseason' stuff, they've had just as long as all the other teams ahead of them.
This system *****ing is so stupid. Yeah, his system is don't score. ****. That's absurd. We do carry the puck in at times, but the Torts system is make sure you get it in, so if that means dump and chase then yeah that's more preferable than neutral zone turnovers. And guess what, that's the way most teams go about it. You don't have room to carry it in you dump and chase. That's the nature of the NHL, you want all this puck carrying watch the soft euro leagues with their giant rinks. And again, don't forget we DO carry it in. We just haven't looked great doing it. My guess is because we don't have that many great puck carriers. We lost our best last year in Dubi, and this year I guess it's Nash. But when Nash carries it in more times than not he looks to go one v one and loses that battle more often than not. Of course when he wins it looks awesome, but still he fails way more than he doesn't fail. This is a bit of a digression, but the main point is that Torts "system" isn't what you seem to think it is, instead you're complaining about what the skill of the players on this team force the team to do. This team isn't a puck carrying team. That doesn't mean it can't be a puck possession team though. This year we've seen long spurts where we set up in the O zone and just take it to the other team for shifts at a time.

As to the second sentence of the bold, careful your ignorance is showing again. 1. Torts doesn't say that. 2. I don't think it even makes sense to say win the game on the PK. 3. We don't simply try to neutralize the other team at even strength, we often dictate play with a strong forecheck, and we have Dmen pinch too much to suggest we're just looking to neutralize the other team at even. 4. I think you just made this claim to ***** about the PP, so to that point get the **** over it. We've struggled there, sure. That's not new, and that's not unheard of. Boston won a cup with no PP. That's not to say I don't wish it gets better, I do, but to make it the be all end all of whether or not you ***** about the team and call for a Jack Adams award winner and finalist last year to be fired is to self-respecting Rangers fans offensive.

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02-21-2013, 06:56 PM
  #218
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Hire Ruff!

Something needs to be done to motivate this team.

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02-21-2013, 08:33 PM
  #219
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The problem is that defense first is a misnomer, its not a real thing. You don't win games by holding the opponent to 1 or 2 goals. You win games by scoring 2 or 3 goals then holding them to 1 goal. If you can't consistently get that first part, playing a defense first system is stupid.

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02-21-2013, 09:16 PM
  #220
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fire torts.

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02-21-2013, 09:18 PM
  #221
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Dump and chase and retreat......
Dump and chase and retreat......
Dump and chase and retreat......
Shoot wide
Turn the puck over
Dump and chase and retreat......
Dump and chase and retreat......
Dump and chase and retreat......
Shoot wide
Turn the puck over
Rinse and repeat

Please scrap this system.


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02-21-2013, 09:19 PM
  #222
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F Torts.......he is clueless like our PP. Same goes for Sulli

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02-21-2013, 09:22 PM
  #223
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tORTS SUX, Yes is a disaster. And I thought so from Day 1

And YES Renney had to go

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02-21-2013, 09:23 PM
  #224
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Deport Torts!

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02-21-2013, 09:27 PM
  #225
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I used to pray for good things . I used to ask the Hockey Gods for puck luck for the NYR .
Now all I want is Torts the smug stupid goatee clown to be fired , . I hate Torts . Please hockey gods make him get fired. Please Sean punch him in face

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