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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-21-2013, 08:48 PM
  #601
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Russel Bowie, Gordie Drillon & Steven Stamkos third liner? What the hell is happening in this draft?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
My sedin pick started a trend lol.
My Ratelle pick started a trend. At least he has some defensive ability.

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Old
02-21-2013, 08:59 PM
  #602
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Technically, Bowie ice centering our 2nd scoring line, since our 1st line is the checking line.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:47 PM
  #603
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Wow, I missed a lot.

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Old
02-22-2013, 02:03 AM
  #604
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Owen Nolan is a guy who I think still doesn't get quite enough love in the ATD. Just for reference, here is a Vs2 comparison between Nolan and Gare:

Owen Nolan:
86, 73, 70, 59, 58, 58, 52
Hart: 5

Danny Gare:
65, 63, 63, 61, 52, 51

Not terribly close. Now, Nolan scored a lot of goals on the powerplay, but then again, he is definitely good enough to play on an ATD second PP unit, so I don't see a problem with using him in that role. He was tough and aggressive, a strong skater, a good leader and a solid, up-and-down-the-wing checker. A quite complete player who I think is a perfectly viable 2nd line glue guy in the ATD in the right situation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil Goyette always seems to be a great value in the ATD. There is really nothing seperating him from guys like McKenney (who is dear to my heart) and Backstrom, and yet he always seems to go at least a round later than these guys. With Cecil Dillon apparently dropped down to that Trail 3rd line, Goyette is a very good choice to get the most out of Dillon offensively and still make that a strong two-way unit.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brent Sutter...just an excellent player, and a nice way to start a 3rd line.

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02-22-2013, 02:45 AM
  #605
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The Whalers select Johnny Gottselig, LW


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Old
02-22-2013, 02:53 AM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
May not be the best player available, but we feel he is the absolute perfect winger to allow us to move Bowie down to the 3rd line. He brings the size, toughness, puck-winning, and 2-way play that some people feel Bowie really needs to be successful. As a bonus, Stasiuk is a decent scorer and playmaker.
What have you guys got on Stasiuk's two-way play? I must admit, I am rather skeptical.

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02-22-2013, 03:04 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
The Whalers select Johnny Gottselig, LW

Gottselig is a good pick here. His Vs2 numbers (using my preferred method where scoring is compared to the #3 if there is more than a 10% gap between #2 and #3 in any given season) in comparison to some other guys:

Bun Cook:
84, 73, 72, 72, 72, 68, 68, 64, 62

Johnny Gottselig:
89, 79, 73, 73, 67, 67, 65, 56, 50

Rick Martin:
82, 75, 72, 70, 63, 62, 58, 51

Sid Smith:
83, 77, 73, 65, 64, 57

Steve Shutt:
86, 70, 66, 65, 59, 54

Vic Stasiuk:
85, 70, 66, 59

------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite similar scoring record to Rick Martin's, actually. Gottselig was known as one of the greatest stickhandlers of his era, though that is pretty much all that is clear about his intangibles as far as I know. If we had any evidence that he was a plus defensive player, I think it would raise his stock substantially. As it is, he is a strong value at this point even without that information.

There are a number of offensive players in the ATD whose historical draft positions relative to one another look very strange when held up against their actual achievements relative to one another. Johnny Gottselig compared to Rick Martin is one of these odd juxtapositions. Gottselig was a consistently strong scorer over a long and successful NHL career in which he played for two Cup winners. What makes Rick Martin and Steve Shutt better?

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02-22-2013, 03:32 AM
  #608
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Red Wings select Bill Guerin, RW.

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Old
02-22-2013, 03:39 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
What have you guys got on Stasiuk's two-way play? I must admit, I am rather skeptical.
We have whatever we could steal from 70s' bio from a few years ago

In our player profile there are many references to him being a diligent worker, a few quotes that talk indirectly about his defensive play, and a few direct references to him being a good two-way player, good defensive player, or good back-checker.

In a draft like this, I don't think I would want to use him as a top-4 penalty killer, and I wouldn't want to use him as a shut-down guy. It is very clear, however, that he does bring a responsible defensive game.

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02-22-2013, 03:48 AM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
We have whatever we could steal from 70s' bio from a few years ago.
I hadn't read that. Ok, Stasiuk looks like an Owen Nolan type winger - solid, physical up-and-down-the-wing fore and backchecker. Nolan was better offensively, but the biggest difference there is probably powerplay time, which I think Stasiuk got relatively little of, if I recall correctly.

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02-22-2013, 04:10 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I hadn't read that. Ok, Stasiuk looks like an Owen Nolan type winger - solid, physical up-and-down-the-wing fore and backchecker. Nolan was better offensively, but the biggest difference there is probably powerplay time, which I think Stasiuk got relatively little of, if I recall correctly.
I agree with the bolded description for Vic Stasiuk - that's pretty much exactly how I'd describe him.

As far as the Owen Nolan comparison, I would agree that Nolan is better offensively, but I'm not sure their styles are all that similar.

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02-22-2013, 04:13 AM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Quite similar scoring record to Rick Martin's, actually. Gottselig was known as one of the greatest stickhandlers of his era, though that is pretty much all that is clear about his intangibles as far as I know. If we had any evidence that he was a plus defensive player, I think it would raise his stock substantially. As it is, he is a strong value at this point even without that information.
Well, HHOF calls him 'a reliable scorer who could also check and provide leadership in the dressing room.'

According to Pelletier, 'a noted penalty killer who liked to rag the puck'.

I'll try to go look through newspapers for more if I get the time.

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:18 AM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As far as the Owen Nolan comparison, I would agree that Nolan is better offensively, but I'm not sure their styles are all that similar.
No, I don't think they're all that similar offensively. Nolan relied on that huge shot, while Stasiuk seems to have been more of an all-around offensive player. But they seem to be similar from an intangibles standpoint, although Nolan was more of a leader, at least in San Jose.

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02-22-2013, 04:26 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Well, HHOF calls him 'a reliable scorer who could also check and provide leadership in the dressing room.'

According to Pelletier, 'a noted penalty killer who liked to rag the puck'.

I'll try to go look through newspapers for more if I get the time.
Yeah...I mean, loh and Pelletier are nice, but it's pretty thin. Especially the puck ragging thing isn't that relevant to even-strength play. Documentation from contemporary sources about Gottselig's intangibles could really raise his stock, though.

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02-22-2013, 04:29 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
No, I don't think they're all that similar offensively. Nolan relied on that huge shot, while Stasiuk seems to have been more of an all-around offensive player. But they seem to be similar from an intangibles standpoint, although Nolan was more of a leader, at least in San Jose.
I don't remember him being much of a defensive player. Also, Nolan was a beast, and a capable puck-winner, but was he consistently working the corners? I remember spending a lot more time in the slot, but I only recall him post 2000. He always seemed like a "me" kind of player, and not the kind to work the corners or back-check on a consistent basis.

Am I off on what I think Nolan is?

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02-22-2013, 04:30 AM
  #616
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Eskimos picks Derek Sanderson, C


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Old
02-22-2013, 04:39 AM
  #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I don't remember him being much of a defensive player. Also, Nolan was a beast, and a capable puck-winner, but was he consistently working the corners? I remember spending a lot more time in the slot, but I only recall him post 2000. He always seemed like a "me" kind of player, and not the kind to work the corners or back-check on a consistent basis.

Am I off on what I think Nolan is?
Nolan was definitely a "reliable" backchecker, at least in San Jose. Nobody in Darryl Sutter's (I think I can safely mention him at this point) system could get away with being anything but that. A few guys (like Alex Korolyuk) tried, but they were pretty quickly no longer playing in San Jose. Nolan was never a Selke candidate, but he did get token Selke votes a couple of times in San Jose, which should tell us that he was at least doing his job as a checker. I don't know what Nolan was in Colorado, but as a Shark, he became a very solid all-around player. He scored a lot in the slot or in front of the net, but he was also the primary forechecker and digger on his line, with Vinny Damphousse at center making the plays and an assortment of more-or-less mediocre left wings taking up space. The Owen Nolan that I watched in San Jose was a well-rounded player.

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02-22-2013, 04:40 AM
  #618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post

Phil Goyette always seems to be a great value in the ATD. There is really nothing seperating him from guys like McKenney (who is dear to my heart) and Backstrom, and yet he always seems to go at least a round later than these guys. With Cecil Dillon apparently dropped down to that Trail 3rd line, Goyette is a very good choice to get the most out of Dillon offensively and still make that a strong two-way unit
I looked long and hard at Goyette because his scoring is really impressive for a third liner, but he really seems like a scorer who backchecks, nothing too special defensively. Same thing with McKenney. Backstrom seems to have a much stronger defensive reputation.

Quote:
Brent Sutter...just an excellent player, and a nice way to start a 3rd line.
Agreed.

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:42 AM
  #619
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Nolan was definitely a "reliable" backchecker, at least in San Jose. Nobody in Darryl Sutter's (I think I can safely mention him at this point) system could get away with being anything but that. Nolan was never a super backchecker, but he did get token Selke votes a couple of times in San Jose. I don't know what Nolan was in Colorado, but as a Shark, he became a very solid all-around player. He scored a lot in the slot or in front of the net, but he was also the primary forechecker and digger on his line, with Vinny Damphousse at center making the plays and an assortment of more-or-less mediocre left wings taking up space. The Owen Nolan that I watched in San Jose was a well-rounded player.
In quebec and when he just arrived to the Sharks he was a brat and a primadonna, in other words, young.

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02-22-2013, 04:42 AM
  #620
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Brent Sutter...just an excellent player, and a nice way to start a 3rd line.
Thanks. Sutter reads as someone who does everything well which is what I wanted for my 3rd line centre. Question though does anyone have any info as to his playing on the penalty kill? When I made the pick yesterday I couldn't see anything on whether he played on the penalty kill or not.

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02-22-2013, 04:45 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Eskimos picks Derek Sanderson, C

To be honest, I think Sanderson is overrated in the ATD. He simply wasn't that good an even-strength player. Great penalty-killer, no doubt, but there are still guys out there who were just as good or better on the PK, but were much more valuable at even strength. I see Sanderson as more of a 4th line special teams ringer than a good 3rd line center. He's just not a good offensive player.

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02-22-2013, 04:49 AM
  #622
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I looked long and hard at Goyette because his scoring is really impressive for a third liner, but he really seems like a scorer who backchecks, nothing too special defensively. Same thing with McKenney. Backstrom seems to have a much stronger defensive reputation.
Goyette is really a two-way player. He's not a super ace checker, but he's an excellent pivot for a two-way third line which is also expected to score, which appears to be what Raptor is going for with Dillon on the right wing. Backstrom probably was better defensively, but Goyette definitely has the better offensive resume. Part of this is a result of opportunity, but then, that cuts both ways. If Goyette had stayed in Montreal and remained a checkingliner for his whole career, his defensive reputation would be better. He seems like the kind of guy who can adjust the offense/defense balance of his game as the situation/team structure demands.

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02-22-2013, 04:52 AM
  #623
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Thanks. Sutter reads as someone who does everything well which is what I wanted for my 3rd line centre. Question though does anyone have any info as to his playing on the penalty kill? When I made the pick yesterday I couldn't see anything on whether he played on the penalty kill or not.
If I remember correctly, he mostly played on the 2nd unit PK on the Island, at least in the first half of his career. Those Islanders teams had some extremely good PKing forwards, and though Sutter was a strong PKer, himself, he was generally not on the first unit, if I remember correctly. Later in his career, I believe he was a first unit player, but my memory of the minutiae of when and where those Isles players got special teams time is somewhat unreliable. For ATD purposes, I think he's a good 2nd unit PKer. On a first unit, he'd probably only be average.

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02-22-2013, 04:53 AM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Thanks. Sutter reads as someone who does everything well which is what I wanted for my 3rd line centre. Question though does anyone have any info as to his playing on the penalty kill? When I made the pick yesterday I couldn't see anything on whether he played on the penalty kill or not.
Sutter's estimated PK usage season by season:

0%
0%
2%
14%
36%
34%
35%
40%
33%
41%
41%
0%
21%
18%
37%
49%
40%
46%
21%
27%
0%
30%
0%
0%
0%
22%

I would use him as a second unit PKer.

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02-22-2013, 04:55 AM
  #625
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Goyette is really a two-way player. He's not a super ace checker, but he's an excellent pivot for a two-way third line which is also expected to score, which appears to be what Raptor is going for with Dillon on the right wing. Backstrom probably was better defensively, but Goyette definitely has the better offensive resume. Part of this is a result of opportunity, but then, that cuts both ways. If Goyette had stayed in Montreal and remained a checkingliner for his whole career, his defensive reputation would be better. He seems like the kind of guy who can adjust the offense/defense balance of his game as the situation/team structure demands.
Goyette gets a lot of credit for being a "checking liner" in Montreal, but that basically just means he was a depth forward, right? We know that basically for Goyette's entire time in Montreal, Henri Richard got the toughest defensive assignments, right? Then he went to the Rangers and was used mainly as a scorer.

I'm not ragging on the pick - he's a good two-way player here (I considered him as Kovalchuk's center before decided Novy was just too skilled to pass up), but I really don't think he's good enough defensively to use on a third line that will be used for matchup purposes.

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