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Old
02-21-2013, 03:50 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
To me it's not about being top 6, as I said I wanted Eller to be paired with an offensive but defensively reliable winger on the 3rd line. However, this didn't mean getting 3rd line minutes as 3rd liners don't get PP time usually. So, on the 3rd line with PP ice time, and his usual PK time. That would give him about 15min per game which is what I consider top 6 ice time.

But, to go back to your question. Out of our current group, only Plek-Bourque-MaxPac really deserve to be called top 6 at this point.
DD and Gionta have 1 point more than Eller despite having played 80-115 minutes more than him. I know Gionta faces tougher opponents, but we still need more production out of our 1st line winger, .5 scoring pace isn't good enough. I'm not surprised though, he's where I though he'd be in terms of production, that's why I wanted him moved down to the 3rd line.
No need to really discuss Cole's underwhelming performance.

With the way some of these guys are playing, I'd have no issues in giving Eller a crack at it. Actually, this should have been attempted early on when MaxPac got his surgery. Therrien should have tried moving DD on the wing and keeping Eller at center.
I don't think any established NHL coach would play Eller at center while playing DD on the wing. It is DD with the whole-ice vision and Eller with the physique to bang in the corners. Not saying Eller can't take key faceoffs if he is having a good day, I am talking about where they go to on the ice while the play is unfolding.

My issue is pairing a player possessing vision with a player possessing goal scoring instincts.

These are three players with the best vision up front:
Galchenyuk
Desharnais
Pacioretty

These are the scorers who are less creative:
Plekanec
Cole
Bourque
Eller
Gallagher
Gionta

Assume Prust plays on a line with White/Armstrong and Moen.

Then we have a size issue. I would not like to see two smurfs on the same line. The three smurfs are:

DD
Gionta
Gallagher

So, Plekanec needs to play with a vision-possessing player, a winger obviously, so that is automatically Pacioretty.

Desharnais can't have either smurfy RW on his line. That leaves Cole.

So, we have:
DD-Cole-LW
Pleks-Smurf RW-Patches
Galchy-Smurf RW-LW

Seeing as Pleks gets the tough lines to play against, his RW has to be Gionta and not Gallagher. That leaves Eller and Bourque as the last two LWers. I prefer Eller with the Gallys, so that they can switch Eller and Prust when the Gallys time has to be reduced and a second defensive line needed more.

One defensive line and one banger line:
Pleks-Gionta-Patches
DD-Cole-Bourque
Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Eller
Prust-White-Moen

Two defensive lines:
Pleks-Gionta-Patches
DD-Cole-Bourque
Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Prust
Eller-Armstrong-Moen

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Old
02-21-2013, 04:46 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
BS. You're adjusting the facts to your beliefs. Try actually watching the games. Gio is playing well after a slow start.

People on here are so obsessed bout age and cap hit taht it completely skews their objectivity.
gotta disagree...

Gionta is playing well in facets of the game, yes.
He, as always, is working hard and playing a high-effort game. Yes.

but his play with the puck, his decision making and his shooting choices/execution have all been below what you'd expect from a top-6 winger, regardless of salary.

that he's our highest paid winger makes all of that tougher to digest.

as long as the team is winning, who cares I suppose.

but if doesn't turn his game around then two things need to happen... he needs to see his PP time slashed (he's currently our highest played forward on the PP) & MB needs to find out what kind of market there is for his services.

That he brings those other, positive, elements to the table makes him serviceable even at the high cap hit, unlike his former Devils mate. But with our other big-ticket winger also struggling, something's gotta give... 9.5M$ for two guys playing bottom-6 offensive hockey is not a good recipe for success, especially with the cap reduction next year.

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02-21-2013, 04:51 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
I don't think any established NHL coach would play Eller at center while playing DD on the wing. It is DD with the whole-ice vision and Eller with the physique to bang in the corners. Not saying Eller can't take key faceoffs if he is having a good day, I am talking about where they go to on the ice while the play is unfolding.

My issue is pairing a player possessing vision with a player possessing goal scoring instincts.

These are three players with the best vision up front:
Galchenyuk
Desharnais
Pacioretty

These are the scorers who are less creative:
Plekanec
Cole
Bourque
Eller
Gallagher
Gionta

Assume Prust plays on a line with White/Armstrong and Moen.

Then we have a size issue. I would not like to see two smurfs on the same line. The three smurfs are:

DD
Gionta
Gallagher

So, Plekanec needs to play with a vision-possessing player, a winger obviously, so that is automatically Pacioretty.

Desharnais can't have either smurfy RW on his line. That leaves Cole.

So, we have:
DD-Cole-LW
Pleks-Smurf RW-Patches
Galchy-Smurf RW-LW

Seeing as Pleks gets the tough lines to play against, his RW has to be Gionta and not Gallagher. That leaves Eller and Bourque as the last two LWers. I prefer Eller with the Gallys, so that they can switch Eller and Prust when the Gallys time has to be reduced and a second defensive line needed more.

One defensive line and one banger line:
Pleks-Gionta-Patches
DD-Cole-Bourque
Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Eller
Prust-White-Moen

Two defensive lines:
Pleks-Gionta-Patches
DD-Cole-Bourque
Galchenyuk-Gallagher-Prust
Eller-Armstrong-Moen
Pacioretty and Desharnais don't have better vision than Plekanec and Eller. Unless I'm misunderstanding your post. Desharnais' having a crappy year. He has good vision, but it's a mistake to say he has better vision than Plekanec because of one year.

Pacioretty's more a finisher than a passer.

Also, I'd prefer size down the middle than size on the wing. There's a reason why teams go after big centers more than big wingers. You have to battle in front of the net and mark the other team's top center. Being a smurf is the last thing you want. You'll hear of more successful small wingers than centers for a reason.

With that said, if Eller and Galchenyuk are playing well together keep them there. That opens up a center spot for DD. It just doesn't make sense to map a whole team around one player like you have to do with DD because of his size and lack of quality in his own zone.

Give me:
Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller - Prust
Bourque - DD - Cole
Moen - White - Armstrong / Gionta

or

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Bourque - Eller - Cole
Prust - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
Moen - White - Amstrong / DD

Any day.

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:32 PM
  #629
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Tonight proved once again that Eller has no creativity with the puck. He is still in panic mode and makes ill advised passes. Although he is getting really good at icing the puck.

The overrating of Eller on this board continues.......and continues to amaze me.

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:34 PM
  #630
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We should trade him for a goon.

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:37 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
We should trade him for a goon.
No. We can get a goon for cheap for a 6th rounder.

What we should do is stop trying to elevate Eller on a pedestal and stop thinking of him as more than what he is........suited for 4th line duty and penalty killing.

The DD vs Eller debates should end after tonight.

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02-21-2013, 10:43 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No. We can get a goon for cheap for a 6th rounder.

What we should do is stop trying to elevate Eller on a pedestal and stop thinking of him as more than what he is........suited for 4th line duty and penalty killing.

The DD vs Eller debates should end after tonight.
I don't think anyone thinks Eller is Sidney Crosby. But 4th liner, really? You described Colby Armstrong, you are telling me you think Eller's skill level is on par with Armstrong?

And the DD vs Eller debate was useless before cherry picking one game, considering one of them is 3 years older, already an established playmaker, and useless in his own end.

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:47 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Tonight proved once again that Eller has no creativity with the puck. He is still in panic mode and makes ill advised passes. Although he is getting really good at icing the puck.

The overrating of Eller on this board continues.......and continues to amaze me.
It’s one bad game for Eller after a series of very solid games. The guy is 23 years old and he still have untapped potential. He clearly is a keeper in my book.

That said, on hfboards, I also think that Eller is overrated. Some posters in here get mad when I write that he is a keeper with size and sound two ways play who is suffering from a mild case of tunnel vision. He also needs to be challenged from time to time. The icing on the cake is when I add that I prefer him on wings... can you hear overlords' footsteps?

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:53 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
It’s one bad game for Eller after a series of very solid games. The guy is 23 years old and he still have untapped potential. He clearly is a keeper in my book.

That said, on hfboards, I also think that Eller is overrated. Some posters in here get mad when I write that he is a keeper with size and sound two ways play who is suffering from a mild case of tunnel vision. He also needs to be challenged from time to time. The icing on the cake is when I add that I prefer him on wings... can you hear overlords' footsteps?
Regarding the wings...I actually like what Therrien has been doing, playing him with Galchenyuk and Desharnais where he can effectively switch off. He had a terrible game faceoff wise today, but in the past few games he was better than Desharnais and Galchenyuk there. The whole team is inconsistent there though.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:43 PM
  #635
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Lars eller you are the love of my life.

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Old
02-22-2013, 02:20 AM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
It’s one bad game for Eller after a series of very solid games. The guy is 23 years old and he still have untapped potential. He clearly is a keeper in my book.

That said, on hfboards, I also think that Eller is overrated. Some posters in here get mad when I write that he is a keeper with size and sound two ways play who is suffering from a mild case of tunnel vision. He also needs to be challenged from time to time. The icing on the cake is when I add that I prefer him on wings... can you hear overlords' footsteps?
When did I ever get mad? If you prefer being wrong, then by all means

It says a lot about one's argument when he needs to start making up stuff about his opponent instead of providing any evidence.

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:47 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Tonight proved once again that Eller has no creativity with the puck. He is still in panic mode and makes ill advised passes. Although he is getting really good at icing the puck.

The overrating of Eller on this board continues.......and continues to amaze me.
First bad game in 2 weeks and this is what you come up with

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02-22-2013, 05:54 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No. We can get a goon for cheap for a 6th rounder.

What we should do is stop trying to elevate Eller on a pedestal and stop thinking of him as more than what he is........suited for 4th line duty and penalty killing.

The DD vs Eller debates should end after tonight.
The debate wont end because Eller had 1 sub par game and DD had a couple good games, if it was that easy Eller would have won the debate weeks ago. Seems like icing the puck was the play of choice for the whole third period, I dont think Eller was the only one out there for the third.

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02-22-2013, 07:09 AM
  #639
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Eller had a mediocre game, but that happens to everybody from time to time.

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02-22-2013, 07:12 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No. We can get a goon for cheap for a 6th rounder.

What we should do is stop trying to elevate Eller on a pedestal and stop thinking of him as more than what he is........suited for 4th line duty and penalty killing.

The DD vs Eller debates should end after tonight.
Eller isn't a 4th liner on any NHL team...you're way out to lunch.

DD vs Eller shouldn't be a debate, they are different players and bring different things to the table.

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02-22-2013, 07:14 AM
  #641
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Wow, too much agendas in here...

Eller had a bad game. And arguably a very bad one.

But that was his first bad one since Toronto 2.

Keep him where he is.

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02-22-2013, 07:22 AM
  #642
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Wow, too much agendas in here...

Eller had a bad game. And arguably a very bad one.

But that was his first bad one since Toronto 2.

Keep him where he is.
He's been one of our best players in about 11 or 12 games, he deserves a lot of slack.

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02-22-2013, 08:04 AM
  #643
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Eller needs to get his confidence back. He does get scared with the puck, but when he's on his game he plays super well. I think Therrien is using him well.

With young forwards, especially ones as talented as Eller (and DD, and Galchenyuk, and Pacioretty, etc) it's all in the head.

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02-22-2013, 10:14 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
Eller needs to get his confidence back. He does get scared with the puck, but when he's on his game he plays super well. I think Therrien is using him well.

With young forwards, especially ones as talented as Eller (and DD, and Galchenyuk, and Pacioretty, etc) it's all in the head.
and that's where the coach comes in...

by rewarding vets with ice time/offensive opportunities (talking about top-6 caliber players of course), while holding younger players to a much harsher standard (especially a guy, like eller, who is playing responsible sound defensive hockey), you mess with their confidence.

imo Subban & eller are both being managed poorly right now for exactly that reason.

JM was terrible with this, and thus far it does seem that MT has a bit of it in him too... hope he figures it out sooner then later.


the argument that vets have "earned" the longer leash is hogwash & a vestige of the worst kind of old school thinking.

teams are at their best when a true meritocracy is in place, no veteran who is worth keeping around is going to make a stink about losing time to someone who is playing better than he is. best teams in any team sport let quality young players who earn their minutes play.

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02-22-2013, 10:26 AM
  #645
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and that's where the coach comes in...

by rewarding vets with ice time/offensive opportunities (talking about top-6 caliber players of course), while holding younger players to a much harsher standard (especially a guy, like eller, who is playing responsible sound defensive hockey), you mess with their confidence.

imo Subban & eller are both being managed poorly right now for exactly that reason.

JM was terrible with this, and thus far it does seem that MT has a bit of it in him too... hope he figures it out sooner then later.


the argument that vets have "earned" the longer leash is hogwash & a vestige of the worst kind of old school thinking.

teams are at their best when a true meritocracy is in place, no veteran who is worth keeping around is going to make a stink about losing time to someone who is playing better than he is. best teams in any team sport let quality young players who earn their minutes play.
MT has done a pretty good job so far. He is spreading the ice time quite well knowing the season will be short and intense. + knowing some of his players did not play competitive hockey since a while.

I agree that Gionta is a liability right now, but MT won't sit his Captain. If Gionta would not had that C letter on his jersey, he would had been put on lower lines and got his ice time cut significantly.

Eller does not deserve more time. He is a third liner at best with the vision and skills he has.

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02-22-2013, 10:41 AM
  #646
Kjell Dahlin
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When did I ever get mad? If you prefer being wrong, then by all means

It says a lot about one's argument when he needs to start making up stuff about his opponent instead of providing any evidence.
I was trying to be funny... obviously I failed! That said, each time I write “Eller is suffering from a mild case of tunnel vision”, you usually appear within the next few hours. For the record: the mad part was not directed at you.

I do however think that Eller is overrated in here. I also think that he is suffering from a mild case of tunnel vision, he also needs someone to light a fire under his ass from time to time and his play (instincts) is more suited for wings.

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02-22-2013, 10:43 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Tonight proved once again that Eller has no creativity with the puck. He is still in panic mode and makes ill advised passes. Although he is getting really good at icing the puck.

The overrating of Eller on this board continues.......and continues to amaze me.
Ya let's bash Eller after one game when Desharnais has been crap all year *harlem shake*

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02-22-2013, 10:45 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Eller does not deserve more time. He is a third liner at best with the vision and skills he has.
It's comments like this that directly lead to Eller overrating.

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02-22-2013, 02:47 PM
  #649
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(...)

I said he is a SOLID 3rd liner and you got offended. To be a top 2 C you have to be a great playmaker and be patient with the puck if youre not a constant scorer things that he didn't show since the begining of his career.

He is still young, he could get better in the years to come but the Habs are a NHL team, and a competitive one this year. They play to win, and if a duo have been on fire for a while ( Pac-DD), you don't break it just cause maybe that young prospect guy could magically be even better.They aren't the godman bulldog .

Eller doesn't deserve a special treatment just cause he got some potential. Why Gally , who is playing better hockey than him since the start of the season, couldn't get a chance before him?

Pac is a finisher, DD feed him a lot more than Eller could do right now. Add the caliber the Pacman line face everynight and the struggle of Eller underpressure + his lack of vision, I fail to see what he could bring more than DD. To be on the top 6, you got to prove that there is NO DOUBT you are one of the best foward of the team, you gotta steal that spot, not just play well.

Eller have his ice time, more than the 2 gally and prust , had good wings for the last couple of game and his doing is job. Let him where he is, let him develop stop trying to rush things.
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Good post!

Can I copy your post in the Lars Eller thread?

That said, regarding the bolded part, I think that, right now, Eller > Galchenyuk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelpj View Post
If you want, why not.

That said, Eller and Gally are playing well. But please explain how you think Eller is playing better than Galchenyuk? The 27 rarely get off shift, have definitely been a key player in our recent success ( game winning goal, assist on game winning goal). Every game he creat opportunity for his teamate ( again last night with this pass to Prust for the breakaway). Gally his leading the team with the +/-.

I like seeing the two play togheter on the third line, no reason to do comparaison right now anyway between them.
Why I think Eller is playing better than Galchenyuk? Mainly because 19 years old Galchenyuk is currently receiving (rightfully so) sheltered while Eller, even when he is playing on “4th”, usually face tougher opponents. Don’t get me wrong: Galchenyuk is a Gem.

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02-22-2013, 02:53 PM
  #650
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Tonight proved once again that Eller has no creativity with the puck. He is still in panic mode and makes ill advised passes. Although he is getting really good at icing the puck.

The overrating of Eller on this board continues.......and continues to amaze me.
One bad game since............................................. ........................ Yeah I can't remember and you write him off ? While DD had a good game, it was his first really good one in .................................Yeah I don't remember. Get real man.

This is like the people saying Leblanc is a bust because he's played 20 bad games this year, taking out the three other years he's played.

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Eller does not deserve more time. He is a third liner at best with the vision and skills he has.
Well you sure know better than CBJ's new GM.

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