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Jagr: best non-canadian ever?

View Poll Results: Is Jaromir Jagr the best non-canadian player in NHL history?
Yes 80 34.48%
No 152 65.52%
Voters: 232. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:45 PM
  #101
capitalsrock
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Better question

Is Kharlamov top 5?

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:53 PM
  #102
ryedog*
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Lidstrom, he never took shifts off like Jagr.

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:32 PM
  #103
The Red Line
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius View Post
Lidstom was always steady - but look.. he NEVER had the top-end/elite success that Jagr/Hasek experienced.

How can you put Lidstrom above Jagr and Hasek when he was never even selected as the best player in the league? That doesn't make much sense.

The players vote every year on the best player and he was never selected.

ALso keep in mind that Lidstrom played on a lot of stacked teams and he wasn't "the guy" like Hasek/Jagr. He had a hell of a supporting cast (many HOF'ers) that shouldered the load, which is why he was never selected for MVP ever during his career.

I just don't see it. I don't want to sound like I am bashing Lidstrom because that is far from the truth... but I can't see how someone would put him above Jagr/Hasek.

Lidstrom was a consumate professional and consistent as hell, but he never had the top-end achievements to be considered the best non-canadian ever.
This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read in the history of the internet. (apart from every post in this thread by LeftCircleOneTimer)


Also didn't Jagr play with Lemieux for a while? Pretty sure he is better than anyone Lidstrom ever played with...

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Old
02-21-2013, 03:55 PM
  #104
newfy
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Lidstrom and Hasek.

Lidstrom was the best defensive and offensive dman in the league for an entire decade.

Jagr is the best best forward but had a bad attitude and also tore up with Lemieux

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Old
02-21-2013, 04:23 PM
  #105
Mantha Poodoo
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For me it's something like:

1. Hasek
...
2. Lidstrom
...
...
3. Jagr

But I include Hasek in my "great 5" as I believe he was as dominant a goalie as Howe/Gretzky/Mario as forwards or Orr as a d-man. He easily takes it over Lidstrom or Jagr for me.

Lidstrom was probably the best player of the 2000s and the best d-man in the league anywhere from 8-15 years. He's solidly ahead of Jagr for me.

All-time I have Hasek at #5, Lidstrom in the 10-14 range and Jagr possibly squeezing into the top 20.

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Old
02-21-2013, 04:27 PM
  #106
StarsFan74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
Number of times a defenseman won the Hart: 13 (Last in 2000 by Pronger. Is Pronger better than Lidstrom?)
Number of times a forward won the Hart: 68

Number of times a defenseman won the Lindsay: 1 (In 1975)
Number of times a forward won the Lindsay: 37

Comparing the two with these two awards makes no sense. How many times did Jagr win the Norris?
You have a point about the bias against defensemen historically for the Hart and LBP/TL awards, but it's not like a defenseman cannot be nominated/win or hasn't been nominated/won those awards. What you imply above makes no sense whatsoever.

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Old
02-21-2013, 04:28 PM
  #107
isles31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
Bure
If Pavel played as long as Jags, then it could be close, but bc he was forced to retire so young, im gonna say nay.

Hasek, Lidstrom, Tretiak(unless were only going NHL) are in this conversation. Wonder how many points Jagr would have if he didnt skip out on the NHL for 3 seasons plus a lockout. Youd think he would be approaching 2k easily, no?

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Old
02-21-2013, 04:28 PM
  #108
StarsFan74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read in the history of the internet. (apart from every post in this thread by LeftCircleOneTimer)


Also didn't Jagr play with Lemieux for a while? Pretty sure he is better than anyone Lidstrom ever played with...
He won most of his scoring honors and trophies without Lemieux.

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Old
02-22-2013, 09:59 AM
  #109
Epsilon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Nope, my vote goes to Saku...he wasn't nearly as good as Jagr at scoring and probably had half the skill, but he had more heart and was a great leader on the ice for the habs, and probably in the locker room too. He isn't a player that just leaves his team for money, he's loyal to them until he's traded or no longer wanted by them, and that to me is what makes him the best non-canadian, you can't find players with that kind of personality everywhere...Anaheim is lucky to have him.

Hasek and Lidstrom would also rank above Jagr imo...so
1. Saku
2. Hasek
3. Lidstrom
4. Jagr

So basically, the most dominant non-canadian goalie, defenseman, forward and heat and soul players are the top 4.
If actually serious and not just a joke...wow, just wow. This might be the most homerific post I've ever seen on here.


Last edited by spiny norman: 02-22-2013 at 11:12 AM. Reason: not needed
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Old
02-22-2013, 10:07 AM
  #110
weaponomega
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I value peak over longevity, so I have Jagr and Hasek over Lidstrom.

1. Jagr
2. Hasek
3. Lidstrom

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Old
02-22-2013, 11:53 AM
  #111
ahmon
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Hasek

Jagr
Lidstrom



Case can be made to switch lidstrom and jagr, but I thought jagr had a higher peak, and stood out more than lidstrom among his peers.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:06 PM
  #112
Ferros
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Hasek is the best goaltender to ever play the game, Lidström is top3-5 among defensemen.

Hasek
Lidström
Jagr

Nothing wrong with being the all-time third best European in the NHL though.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:07 PM
  #113
Wrath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaponomega View Post
I value peak over longevity, so I have Jagr and Hasek over Lidstrom.

1. Jagr
2. Hasek
3. Lidstrom
I think many would argue that Hasek had the best peak (and worst (NHL) longevity of the three).

The way I see it, Hasek had the best peak, and Jagr and Lidstrom split best prime between height of prime and length of prime respectively. Non-peak/prime career is a wash but probably Lidstrom.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:08 PM
  #114
Roboturner913
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I'm thinking Larionov needs to be in this conversation somewhere if you're taking into account entire careers.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:09 PM
  #115
Petro Points
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Selanne with HM for top 5.
Stats not too different from Jagr.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:25 PM
  #116
MastuhNinks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isles31 View Post
If Pavel played as long as Jags, then it could be close, but bc he was forced to retire so young, im gonna say nay.
No, it wouldn't be close. If you count their career numbers up until they're 31:

Jaromir Jagr
1027GP 537G 772A 1309P, 1.27PPG

1994-95 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1997-98 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1998-99 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1998-99 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1998-99 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1999-00 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1999-00 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2000-01 NHL Art Ross Trophy

1994-95 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1995-96 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1996-97 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1997-98 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1998-99 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1999-00 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
2000-01 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)


Pavel Bure
702GP 437G 342A 779P, 1.11PPG

1991-92 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
1999-00 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2000-01 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

1993-94 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1999-00 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
2000-01 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)


Pavel Bure was good and all, and a treat to watch, but not in Jagr's stratosphere. There's also the fact that Bure's style of play which lead to his offensive numbers is the reason why he retired so young.

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:30 PM
  #117
ushvinder
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I love hasek, but how many years was he actually better than Jagr? 1994, 1997 and 1998. Um thats about it, every other year Jagr was either better or they were the same.

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Old
02-22-2013, 05:17 PM
  #118
weaponomega
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
I think many would argue that Hasek had the best peak (and worst (NHL) longevity of the three).

The way I see it, Hasek had the best peak, and Jagr and Lidstrom split best prime between height of prime and length of prime respectively. Non-peak/prime career is a wash but probably Lidstrom.
True. Hasek's peak could be argued to be among the best along with Gretzky in terms of dominance over his peers.

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Old
02-22-2013, 05:21 PM
  #119
weaponomega
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Selanne with HM for top 5.
Stats not too different from Jagr.
Wat?

Jagr:

1994-95 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1995-96 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1996-97 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1997-98 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1998-99 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1999-00 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
2000-01 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
2005-06 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)

1994-95 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1997-98 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1998-99 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1998-99 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1998-99 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1999-00 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1999-00 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2000-01 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2005-06 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

Selanne:
1992-93 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1996-97 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1997-98 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1998-99 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)

1992-93 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
1998-99 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

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Old
02-22-2013, 06:36 PM
  #120
DrunkElkCZ
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Best non-canadian forward: Jagr
Best non-canadian defenceman: Lidstrom
Best non-canadian goalie: Hasek

job done, going to bed

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Old
02-22-2013, 06:37 PM
  #121
BROOKLYnKNIGHTS
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1. Dominator
2. Jagr
3. Lidstrom

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Old
02-22-2013, 09:12 PM
  #122
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Yeah, Jagr is likely the best whenever he decided to play hard..That Selanne fella has had a nice little career too however.

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Old
02-22-2013, 09:43 PM
  #123
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Lidstrom and Forsberg

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:33 AM
  #124
Frolov 6'3
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There are still some people out there who think Jagr tore up the league because of Lemieux ?

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:09 AM
  #125
nudie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius View Post
Nicklas Lidstrom - Hart Trophies: 0
Nicklas Lidstrom - Lester B. Pearson Trophies: 0

He was a great player, sure, but not the best player in the league like Jagr.
Conn Smythe >>> Hart/Pearson

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