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Is it better to have balanced team and not top heavy talent?

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Old
02-22-2013, 07:33 AM
  #26
DAChampion
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The Habs have tried a well-balanced team for a decade and it has not worked. You need some elite talent, somebody who can step up and be that gamebreaker.

A team that is a made of a committee of equals is unstable, for two reasons:

1) Nobody can step up. The 2007-08 Habs at least had Kovalev, but now there is nobody. If the going gets tough, Markov might look to Subban, Plekanec might look to Desharnais, etc. There is no one player who thinks to himself, "I have to be the one to make this work because only I can make this work".

There's also nobody who can have a hot streak and carry the team. When a guy on the Habs like Plekanec has a hot streak, he might go 1 point per game for 10 games. If Steven Stamkos of the lightning has a hot streak, he will go 1 goal per game for 10 games, big difference.

2) The second advantage is that a top-heavy team is less vulnerable to injury. This is counter intuitive, but here goes:

Assume any random NHL player misses one post-season out of five due to injury, ergo, a top-heavy team with one or two players carrying the load will be uncompetitive two seasons out of five, maybe three, because they'll be missing some talent.

However, a team that is made of equals will always be uncompetitive because they'll always have injuries. If you have 10 or 12 important players, you always have an important guy injured. The 2007-08 Habs team was first in the conference, and it collapsed in the playoffs because Mark Streit, the 4th or 5th dman on the team, was playing injured. Right now, some Habs fans are missing Brendan Gallagher, same idea. In contrast, the Penguins don't care if Pascal Dupuis or Tyler Kennedy is injured. They only care if Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Sutter, or Letang is injured; as opposed to the Habs who care if any of Plekanec, Bourque, Cole, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Cole, Moen, Prust, Markov, Subban, Emelin, Bouillon, Gorges, Price, Gallagher are injured. That means less potential for failure.

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02-22-2013, 09:50 AM
  #27
Sorinth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
You need the individuals to step up and solve the really tough problems. Like in the 2010 playoffs when we ran into Philly. They cracked our system wide open, and we had no one to stand up and change the flow of the games. We were eliminated in 5 as a result.

Essentially, philly put obstacles in front of our team that no one could solve, and all the scoring by committee, and team play wasn't going to change that. All the team-work was leading them to the same, wrong answer.

That's why it's so important for us to have a player like Galchenyuk. When good plays simply won't do, you need a player who can make brilliant plays.

However, you do need the support for such players. You need to have an entire team playing their part and buying into one coherent strategy. Superstars can be shut-down too. To me, neither are sufficient conditions for a cup winner. Both are necessary conditions, however.
Philly was a balanced team that had 3 good scoring lines and a great shutdown D.

We were extremely top heavy with only two guys scoring Cammalleri and Gionta. In fact Cammy was the best in the league that playoffs.

We lost because our scorers got shutdown by Pronger, and our shutdown guys couldn't handle 3 scoring lines. That playoffs better illustrates the need for a more balanced team

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02-22-2013, 10:00 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The Habs have tried a well-balanced team for a decade and it has not worked. You need some elite talent, somebody who can step up and be that gamebreaker.
Being a balanced team doesn't mean having not having talented players.

The Habs haven't been a well-balanced team in the last decade. How many years did we say Koivu never had any good players to play with? He was always stuck carrying average players.


Last edited by Sorinth: 02-22-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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02-22-2013, 10:01 AM
  #29
uiCk
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Try finding a cup winning team without a superstar on it. There are very few. Most have multiple superstars.

It's not question of either or... you need both.
Both indeed.

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02-22-2013, 10:09 AM
  #30
Sorinth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persh View Post
Top heavy for me.

Average players can be had via trades or UFA. Stars not so much.
I don't think the OP meant a team filled with average players. You still need good players. The question is more do you want 1-2 top 5 players or 4-5 players that are in the 10-20 range.

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02-22-2013, 10:14 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I don't think the OP meant a team filled with average players. You still need good players. The question is more do you want 1-2 top 5 players or 4-5 players that are in the 10-20 range.
10-20 range is kind of the average of 30. Most teams have players from 10-20 range, which would make them avg, comparatvly to top 5 players, where the superstars are usually found.

I think OP meant a team filled with average players, where best picks are 10-20 range.

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02-22-2013, 11:03 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
10-20 range is kind of the average of 30. Most teams have players from 10-20 range, which would make them avg, comparatvly to top 5 players, where the superstars are usually found.

I think OP meant a team filled with average players, where best picks are 10-20 range.
Sorry for not being clear I wasn't refering to draft pick position but how they rank league wide at their position.

So the top Heavy team might have the 2nd best Center in the league, and the 5 best RW in the league.
The balanced team would have maybe the 12th best LW, the 15th best C, 18th best D and 20th best D.

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02-22-2013, 11:10 AM
  #33
Madam Kadri
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Teams that win the Cup are both deep and talented. Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, LA, could all field three competent lines that didn't **** things up. Loser teams are one-line teams like Buffalo or Washington this season. 3 players that are consistent and a bunch of stragglers.

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Old
02-22-2013, 11:21 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
Teams that win the Cup are both deep and talented. Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, LA, could all field three competent lines that didn't **** things up. Loser teams are one-line teams like Buffalo or Washington this season. 3 players that are consistent and a bunch of stragglers.
Carolina and Tampa weren't deep teams when they won the cup. When Pittsburgh won they had 2 100pt players and no one else cracked 50. That's not exactly deep.

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02-22-2013, 11:30 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Carolina and Tampa weren't deep teams when they won the cup. When Pittsburgh won they had 2 100pt players and no one else cracked 50. That's not exactly deep.
Your way to caught up in regular season player point rankings.

Pit had very deep roster, especially on D, with lots of vets supporting their two 100 point players.

Evgeni Malkin 24 14 22 36 +3 51
Sidney Crosby 24 15 16 31 +9 14
Bill Guerin 24 7 8 15 +8 15
Ruslan Fedotenko 24 7 7 14 +9 4
Sergei Gonchar 22 3 11 14 +3 12
Chris Kunitz 24 1 13 14 +3 19
Max Talbot 24 8 5 13 +8 19
Kris Letang 23 4 9 13 +1 26
Tyler Kennedy 24 5 4 9 −1 4
Jordan Staal 24 4 5 9 −5 8
Mark Eaton 24 4 3 7 +4 10
Matt Cooke 24 1 6 7 −2 22
Miroslav Satan 17 1 5 6 +1 11
Craig Adams 24 3 2 5 −1 16
Rob Scuderi 24 1 4 5 5 6
Philippe Boucher 9 1 3 4 −2 4
Brooks Orpik 24 0 4 4 −1 22
Hal Gill 20 0 2 2 +3 4
Alex Goligoski 2 0 1 1 −1 0
Petr Sykora 6 0 1 1 −3 0
Pascal Dupuis 16 0 0 0 −5 8
Marc-Andre Fleury (G)


Same with Tampa, they had sick team. They had Brad richards back then and Dan Boyle and also a strong supporting vets. Car was stacked also.



No-"deep" or non-"stacked" team would be WSH for last 5 years or so.

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Old
02-22-2013, 11:51 AM
  #36
Sorinth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Your way to caught up in regular season player point rankings.

Pit had very deep roster, especially on D, with lots of vets supporting their two 100 point players.

Evgeni Malkin 24 14 22 36 +3 51
Sidney Crosby 24 15 16 31 +9 14
Bill Guerin 24 7 8 15 +8 15
Ruslan Fedotenko 24 7 7 14 +9 4
Sergei Gonchar 22 3 11 14 +3 12
Chris Kunitz 24 1 13 14 +3 19
Max Talbot 24 8 5 13 +8 19
Kris Letang 23 4 9 13 +1 26
Tyler Kennedy 24 5 4 9 −1 4
Jordan Staal 24 4 5 9 −5 8
Mark Eaton 24 4 3 7 +4 10
Matt Cooke 24 1 6 7 −2 22
Miroslav Satan 17 1 5 6 +1 11
Craig Adams 24 3 2 5 −1 16
Rob Scuderi 24 1 4 5 5 6
Philippe Boucher 9 1 3 4 −2 4
Brooks Orpik 24 0 4 4 −1 22
Hal Gill 20 0 2 2 +3 4
Alex Goligoski 2 0 1 1 −1 0
Petr Sykora 6 0 1 1 −3 0
Pascal Dupuis 16 0 0 0 −5 8
Marc-Andre Fleury (G)


Same with Tampa, they had sick team. They had Brad richards back then and Dan Boyle and also a strong supporting vets. Car was stacked also.



No-"deep" or non-"stacked" team would be WSH for last 5 years or so.
Scoring 13-15 points when your playing on a line with guys putting up over 30 is not all that impressive. Their top 6 was 2 great players and 4 average 2nd liners. The 3rd line was pretty average as well.

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02-22-2013, 12:16 PM
  #37
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i think we need to define what is a superstar

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02-22-2013, 03:06 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Yes well, I think the habs were stacked:



That was a pretty good team
The thing about the 93 team that often gets overlooked is how young that defense was. A d-core that young would simply get written off in most cases, but most of them did go on to have a lengthy and productive nhl career.

Desjardins, Schneider, Haller, Odelien, Brisebois and Hill were just puppies. JJD wasn't that much older. I don't remember if rob ramage was playing a key role on that team (or if he was there at all), but he was the only grizzled veteran.

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02-22-2013, 03:13 PM
  #39
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I don't get the superstar argument because we already have one.

Forgot about Price ?

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02-22-2013, 03:49 PM
  #40
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you need both, period.

lots of teams in recent years have had 2 or more "superstar" players and yet failed to make the playoffs & lot's of teams with quality depth but no elite talent have faired as bad.

We have a pretty good core in place right now to have the right mix in 2-3 seasons, just have to make sure we manage the assets & cap situation we have well.

Price
Subban, Markov
Galch, MaxPac, Plekanec

There's enough talent right there to build a winner around imo. Imagine taking the 14M$ in Cole/Kablere/Gionta, and spending it instead on 2-3 more quality players (imagine a 2013 UFA summer of Perry/Semin/Smid*)

Bourque - Pleks - Semin
MaxPac - DD/Galch - Perry
Prust - Eller - Gally
Moen - White - Leblanc/Dumont

Markov - Gorges
Smid - Subban
Emelin - Diaz

Price

That's a solid contending team as soon as next year, and for years to come with Galch/Gally/Kristo/Colberg/Leblanc/Tinordi/Beaulieu/Ellis/Dietz/Bennet/2013 picks providing a solid pipeline of solid/cheap depth to filter in year after year.




*i bet those 3 go for ~16M$ this summer, ~6.5/6.5/4... think back to the Gomez/Cammy/Gionta (~18M$ + Higgins/McDo) before saying it's "impossible".

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02-22-2013, 03:55 PM
  #41
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
you need both, period.

lots of teams in recent years have had 2 or more "superstar" players and yet failed to make the playoffs & lot's of teams with quality depth but no elite talent have faired as bad.

We have a pretty good core in place right now to have the right mix in 2-3 seasons, just have to make sure we manage the assets & cap situation we have well.

Price
Subban, Markov
Galch, MaxPac, Plekanec

There's enough talent right there to build a winner around imo. Imagine taking the 14M$ in Cole/Kablere/Gionta, and spending it instead on 2-3 more quality players (imagine a 2013 UFA summer of Perry/Semin/Smid*)

Bourque - Pleks - Semin
MaxPac - DD/Galch - Perry
Prust - Eller - Gally
Moen - White - Leblanc/Dumont

Markov - Gorges
Smid - Subban
Emelin - Diaz

Price

That's a solid contending team as soon as next year, and for years to come with Galch/Gally/Kristo/Colberg/Leblanc/Tinordi/Beaulieu/Ellis/Dietz/Bennet/2013 picks providing a solid pipeline of solid/cheap depth to filter in year after year.




*i bet those 3 go for ~16M$ this summer, ~6.5/6.5/4... think back to the Gomez/Cammy/Gionta (~18M$ + Higgins/McDo) before saying it's "impossible".
Find a team in the last 50 years that won a cup by building from the Free agent market.

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02-22-2013, 03:57 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Kopitar >>> Desharnais
Brown < Pacioretty
Quick = Price
Doughty > Markov
Scuderi ~ Gorges
Richards = Plekanec
Carter > Cole
Vonyov << subban

LA Kings are a bad comparison imo. They were more top heavy.
Fixed it up a little bit to how I see it. But agreed, the Kings were a bit more top heavy, and everyone was running at full force.

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:13 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Find a team in the last 50 years that won a cup by building from the Free agent market.
find a team that won a cup after signing 3 UFA's the previous summer?

I'm betting that wouldn't be hard to find.


last time I checked, habs drafted/developped all of

Price
Subban
Markov
Pleks
MaxPac
Galch
Gally
White
Emelin

while Diaz, Eller, Gorges & DD all became NHL regulars here.

i bet you'd be hard pressed to find many teams that had 13-15 (if leblanc/Dumont were to make the squad) home grown players on a cup winning team.


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Old
02-22-2013, 05:00 PM
  #44
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
find a team that won a cup after signing 3 UFA's the previous summer?

I'm betting that wouldn't be hard to find.


last time I checked, habs drafted/developped all of

Price
Subban
Markov
Pleks
MaxPac
Galch
Gally
White
Emelin

while Diaz, Eller, Gorges & DD all became NHL regulars here.

i bet you'd be hard pressed to find many teams that had 13-15 (if leblanc/Dumont were to make the squad) home grown players on a cup winning team.

3 core player out of the market.

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Old
02-22-2013, 08:14 PM
  #45
Sorinth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Find a team in the last 50 years that won a cup by building from the Free agent market.
Boston signed Thomas and Chara as UFAs. They were the two most valuable players for their cup run.

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02-22-2013, 08:24 PM
  #46
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Boston signed Thomas and Chara as UFAs. They were the two most valuable players for their cup run.
After how many years ? Chara is a bruins since what 06 now ? and Thomas is still homegrown as he's with the Bruins(was actually) since 02.

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02-22-2013, 08:25 PM
  #47
Madam Kadri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Boston signed Thomas and Chara as UFAs. They were the two most valuable players for their cup run.
They drafted Seguin, Bergeron, Marchand, Lucic, Krejci.

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02-22-2013, 08:27 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
They drafted Seguin, Bergeron, Marchand, Lucic, Krejci.
best players that year for them were Chara and TT.

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02-22-2013, 08:28 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Philly was a balanced team that had 3 good scoring lines and a great shutdown D.

We were extremely top heavy with only two guys scoring Cammalleri and Gionta. In fact Cammy was the best in the league that playoffs.

We lost because our scorers got shutdown by Pronger, and our shutdown guys couldn't handle 3 scoring lines. That playoffs better illustrates the need for a more balanced team
Pronger was a superstar...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Being a balanced team doesn't mean having not having talented players.

The Habs haven't been a well-balanced team in the last decade. How many years did we say Koivu never had any good players to play with? He was always stuck carrying average players.
Koivu wasn't a superstar...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackers View Post
i think we need to define what is a superstar
HOFer in his prime would be a good start. You could have a player like Thomas who's career is too short to be HOF but certainly was a superstar for a couple of years that would qualify.

Carolina and Tampa are the two teams that are question marks. St Louis probably qualifies and they had two 'stars' to go along with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I don't get the superstar argument because we already have one.

Forgot about Price ?
Price I think qualifies. I think Subban isn't far behind and Galchenyuk has the talent to become one. That's why I'm excited about the future of the team. We FINALLY have some real top end talent coming up.

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02-22-2013, 08:28 PM
  #50
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
best players that year for them were Chara and TT.
They we're still there for more than 6 years.

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