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Old
02-22-2013, 10:08 AM
  #826
19sharks19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You really can't make determinations about who is and is not struggling when the entire team is unable to score. No one is scoring right now, not just Havlat, and until the team as a whole starts putting up goals you can't go pointing fingers at particular players. Havlat looks good on the ice and his underlying stats say he is doing the right things. I expect when we start putting up more than 1-2 goals a night he will start putting up his as well.
Very true. Just wondering though as, D.W. will have to look at some issues this summer to find some funds and, Clowe and Havlat are two of the top 6 whom have been on an elongated slump providing very little as compared to what they are getting paid.

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02-22-2013, 10:36 AM
  #827
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Very true. Just wondering though as, D.W. will have to look at some issues this summer to find some funds and, Clowe and Havlat are two of the top 6 whom have been on an elongated slump providing very little as compared to what they are getting paid.
Except that Clowe not only isn't scoring, he's got brutal advanced stats as well. Clowe is absolutely doing more harm than good when he is on the ice. Havlat is the opposite, while he's not scoring goals, he is putting up very solid advanced stats and pushing the play in the right direction when he is on the ice. I'd take Havlat every day of the week over Clowe, even at his price.

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02-22-2013, 11:07 AM
  #828
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Except that Clowe not only isn't scoring, he's got brutal advanced stats as well. Clowe is absolutely doing more harm than good when he is on the ice. Havlat is the opposite, while he's not scoring goals, he is putting up very solid advanced stats and pushing the play in the right direction when he is on the ice. I'd take Havlat every day of the week over Clowe, even at his price.
I honestly see something in the middle happening - I can see a scenario of Clowe signing for one year as a way to benefit both the Sharks and him .... if he really wants to stay here. Otherwise, he'll go for his pay day.

I don't necessarily see signs that he'd want to bolt - he still gets his ice time - 2nd line and PP, gets to occasionally play on the 1st line when they juggle.

The thought of actually signing a free agent 2nd liner this offseason still gives me doubts - we NEVER sign free agents of note unless they are already on our team.

...and who would we target? S Gagne? Horton? Ryder? McArthur? Filppula? Raymond? Weiss? Higgins?

In that list, I don't see us signing Horton, Filppula, and don't want Gagne. I don't think Raymond can fill a true 2nd line role - but the prospect of that being available to him may actually attract him. Same can be said for Higgins.

Ultimately, given our track record with FA signings, I'd simply rather sign Clowe for one more season, give someone like Hertl some more time to develop, as well as any other prospects, and go from there.

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02-22-2013, 11:11 AM
  #829
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I honestly see something in the middle happening - I can see a scenario of Clowe signing for one year as a way to benefit both the Sharks and him .... if he really wants to stay here. Otherwise, he'll go for his pay day.

I don't necessarily see signs that he'd want to bolt - he still gets his ice time - 2nd line and PP, gets to occasionally play on the 1st line when they juggle.

The thought of actually signing a free agent 2nd liner this offseason still gives me doubts - we NEVER sign free agents of note unless they are already on our team.

...and who would we target? S Gagne? Horton? Ryder? McArthur? Filppula? Raymond? Weiss? Higgins?

In that list, I don't see us signing Horton, Filppula, and don't want Gagne. I don't think Raymond can fill a true 2nd line role - but the prospect of that being available to him may actually attract him. Same can be said for Higgins.

Ultimately, given our track record with FA signings, I'd simply rather sign Clowe for one more season, give someone like Hertl some more time to develop, as well as any other prospects, and go from there.
Again though, Clowe is actively making whatever line he is playing on worse, much as Handzus was doing last year. He's slow, defensively useless, and now isn't even creating offense (and it's not the first time he's gone for a VERY long stretch of slumping). He's also overated, will get paid by some gm who overvalues toughness and we simply cannot afford to match it.

The right answer is to trade Clowe + for a younger player with top-6 upside we can afford. Hagelin is a good example and Rangers fans seem open to the idea. There are options out there, but if Wilson waits until the offseason he's going to end up needing to trade more important long term assets.

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02-22-2013, 11:17 AM
  #830
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Clowe has been playing terribly, but his advanced stats are still really good (which is expected, since his quality of competition is really sheltered and Couture has been on fire). Just imagine how good Couture's stats would look like if Clowe wasn't changing the direction of play every time he touches the puck.

Havlat had great advanced stats until he was dropped to the 3rd and 4th lines, but it's still positive despite all his linemates being in the deep negative. Sheppard has been really good too. Gomez has been pretty bad. Pelech has been out-of-this-world terrible, but the sample size is small.

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02-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Very true. Just wondering though as, D.W. will have to look at some issues this summer to find some funds and, Clowe and Havlat are two of the top 6 whom have been on an elongated slump providing very little as compared to what they are getting paid.
It's hard not to be streaky when you're playing with a mix of Galiardi, Burish, and Handzus for much of the season.

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02-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I honestly see something in the middle happening - I can see a scenario of Clowe signing for one year as a way to benefit both the Sharks and him .... if he really wants to stay here. Otherwise, he'll go for his pay day.

I don't necessarily see signs that he'd want to bolt - he still gets his ice time - 2nd line and PP, gets to occasionally play on the 1st line when they juggle.

The thought of actually signing a free agent 2nd liner this offseason still gives me doubts - we NEVER sign free agents of note unless they are already on our team.

...and who would we target? S Gagne? Horton? Ryder? McArthur? Filppula? Raymond? Weiss? Higgins?

In that list, I don't see us signing Horton, Filppula, and don't want Gagne. I don't think Raymond can fill a true 2nd line role - but the prospect of that being available to him may actually attract him. Same can be said for Higgins.

Ultimately, given our track record with FA signings, I'd simply rather sign Clowe for one more season, give someone like Hertl some more time to develop, as well as any other prospects, and go from there.

And on top of that he's not playing like he wants a big payday from another team. He's having arguably the worst season of his career in a contract year, that's not a good sign.

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02-22-2013, 11:34 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
And on top of that he's not playing like he wants a big payday from another team. He's having arguably the worst season of his career in a contract year, that's not a good sign.
Also a fantastic reason to not re-sign him.

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02-22-2013, 11:56 AM
  #834
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Also a fantastic reason to not re-sign him.
My base argument is that if he'd sign for a reasonable amount for a one year eval deal I'd do it.

This is a lockout year - people make mistakes. He didn't play - he coached. It is really showing as a mistake, and I think he knows that.

If he'd sign a 1 year deal at 3 mil, I'd be all over it.

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02-22-2013, 12:12 PM
  #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
My base argument is that if he'd sign for a reasonable amount for a one year eval deal I'd do it.

This is a lockout year - people make mistakes. He didn't play - he coached. It is really showing as a mistake, and I think he knows that.

If he'd sign a 1 year deal at 3 mil, I'd be all over it.
What was his excuse last season? Or part of the season before? To many excuses, not enough showing.

For all of thorntons complaints, the only thing he hasn't been willing to change for the betterment of the team is his shooting the puck.

Clowe has shown no signs of willing to change his game, hasn't gotten better at anything in his time as a shark, he has actually gotten worse at everything since his rookie season.

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02-22-2013, 12:13 PM
  #836
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Do we even have the cap space to re-sign him?

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02-22-2013, 12:14 PM
  #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
My base argument is that if he'd sign for a reasonable amount for a one year eval deal I'd do it.

This is a lockout year - people make mistakes. He didn't play - he coached. It is really showing as a mistake, and I think he knows that.

If he'd sign a 1 year deal at 3 mil, I'd be all over it.
i wouldnt, i would trade him right now for a terrible first

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02-22-2013, 12:18 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
i wouldnt, i would trade him right now for a terrible first
I'd try to trade him to a team that might not make the playoffs (but is trying to). That way if they don't make it, we have a lottery pick, if they do, we have two firsts we can either trade up with or pick to 1st rounders, which we desperately need.

It feels like we'd be losing depth, but with how terrible his play is we really are kind of adding by subtracting, and honestly Clowe isn't this bad a player, he probably needs a change of scenery.

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02-22-2013, 12:32 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I'd try to trade him to a team that might not make the playoffs (but is trying to). That way if they don't make it, we have a lottery pick, if they do, we have two firsts we can either trade up with or pick to 1st rounders, which we desperately need.

It feels like we'd be losing depth, but with how terrible his play is we really are kind of adding by subtracting, and honestly Clowe isn't this bad a player, he probably needs a change of scenery.
There are a lot of teams that fit that description... I condone this. Couture and Havlat are good enough to carry one of Galiardi/Wingels/Sheppard (and they're all decent fits, all great forechecks), or drop Marleau to that line and put one of them with Thornton and Pavelski.

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02-22-2013, 12:32 PM
  #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
My base argument is that if he'd sign for a reasonable amount for a one year eval deal I'd do it.

This is a lockout year - people make mistakes. He didn't play - he coached. It is really showing as a mistake, and I think he knows that.

If he'd sign a 1 year deal at 3 mil, I'd be all over it.
No thanks, I'd much prefer they ship Clowe out and get something of value. I don't really have any interest in seeing him on the sharks next year. He's lost his mojo.

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02-22-2013, 12:41 PM
  #841
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Clowe is just saving all his mojo for the run into the playoffs. Everything will be fine.


This is what I keep telling myself. Over, over and over again...

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02-22-2013, 12:51 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
There are a lot of teams that fit that description... I condone this. Couture and Havlat are good enough to carry one of Galiardi/Wingels/Sheppard (and they're all decent fits, all great forechecks), or drop Marleau to that line and put one of them with Thornton and Pavelski.
Yah, even the argument that 'he will improve' doesn't hold a lot of weight because as of this moment he is dragging the team down and when the team is playing well,t hey are playing VERY well, even with him in the lineup. Pretend we didn't have Clowe right now and were about to trade say Sheppard for him, would you do that trade? I wouldn't.

The best situation is we either trade Clowe + Murray for a tweener, or Clowe for a pick, and Murray/Demers/Braun for a tweener. Hopefully Murray.

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02-22-2013, 12:53 PM
  #843
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i wouldnt, i would trade him right now for a terrible first
I doubt you'd get a first for him. Probably a 2nd + prospect.

Ultimately the thought of Wingels/Galiardi/Sheppard being our 2nd line LW just doesn't sound appealing to me.

Add in us overpaying for a FA to fill that role, and we may be worse off than the Burish contract (though I doubt it with the salary cap coming down so far).


On another note.... this salary cap will make this summer's FA signings damn interesting. So many teams will be at or close to the ceiling.

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02-22-2013, 02:28 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
A potentially offensive suggestion:

Last year, there was a rumor that Dan Boyle was going to be traded for Gaborik. Let us assume that Dan Boyle has that similar kind of value.

What if the Sharks traded Boyle? Assuming they got no rosterable assets back, they'd have a lot more to play with; money I would use to sign a replacement D-man:





CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
John McCarthy ($0.613m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.704m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
Clarke MacArthur ($4.250m) / James Sheppard ($1.300m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)
Antti Miettinen ($1.800m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Ian White ($4.000m) / Brad Stuart ($3.600m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.400m)
Matt Irwin ($0.715m) /
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.722m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (0.104% of upper limit)
Dan Boyle ($0.067m—1.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,467,542; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $832,458
------
CALCULATOR LOG
* Jason Demers signed as free agent for $1,400,000.
* Matt Irwin signed as free agent for $715,000.
* Alex Stalock signed as free agent for $721,875.
* Andrew Desjardins signed as free agent for $704,000.
* John McCarthy recalled.
* Drew Miller signed as free agent for $837,500.
* Traded Dan Boyle and retained 1.000% of cap hit.
* Ian White signed as free agent for $2,875,000.
* Cap hit for Ian White set as $4,000,000.
* Clarke MacArthur signed as free agent for $3,250,000.
* Cap hit for Clarke MacArthur set as $4,250,000.
* James Sheppard signed as free agent for $866,250.
* Cap hit for James Sheppard set as $1,300,000.
* Antti Miettinen signed as free agent for $1,351,293.
* Cap hit for Antti Miettinen set as $1,800,000.
Drew Miller on the 2nd line? Desjardins as your 3rd line center? I guess you expect that team to Tank then?

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02-22-2013, 03:12 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by DarrylshutzSydor View Post
Drew Miller on the 2nd line? Desjardins as your 3rd line center? I guess you expect that team to Tank then?
Look a little harder, I highly doubt he actually set the lines, as he has mac on the 4th line for over 4 mil. Probably just didnt take the time to actually set what he thinks the lines will look like.

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02-22-2013, 03:12 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I doubt you'd get a first for him. Probably a 2nd + prospect.

Ultimately the thought of Wingels/Galiardi/Sheppard being our 2nd line LW just doesn't sound appealing to me.
Why, thats exactly what this team had on their top line for a long time. A quick borderline player.

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02-22-2013, 03:18 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Look a little harder, I highly doubt he actually set the lines, as he has mac on the 4th line for over 4 mil. Probably just didnt take the time to actually set what he thinks the lines will look like.
Actually, I think capgeek screwed up.

I did take the time to moves the lines around, but I think capgeek default the lines in the order that I added the players....

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02-22-2013, 03:20 PM
  #848
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Actually, I think capgeek screwed up.

I did take the time to moves the lines around, but I think capgeek default the lines in the order that I added the players....
EIther way the point was those are not the lines you wanted, and it was pretty obvious that was the case.

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02-22-2013, 03:30 PM
  #849
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EIther way the point was those are not the lines you wanted, and it was pretty obvious that was the case.
Right, appreciate it.

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02-22-2013, 04:00 PM
  #850
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So we should just accept the fact that the Sharks will never rebuild and be that team that fights for the 8th spot every year and get middle round picks and be stuck in mediocrity for the foreseeable future unless they get lucky?
They may tell the fans cup, but they are battling astronomically high odds against on this issue already. It is more about playoffs. Look to the teams that have rebuilt successfully and won. They had to tank for a year or two at least. TO is the classic case followed by StL. Philly is perpetually rebuilding on the fly yet fails repeatedly (although getting very close a couple of times).

I don't like most media narratives on how to build a team as they are skipping over key ingredients and commonalities. Whether the GMs know these ingredients and commonalities, who knows? Just a case in point, for how many years have we heard from Drew about how Edmonton will rise from the ashes with all of their high picks? Every year, it is next year and next year arrives and is follow by "next year" again.

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