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Old
07-14-2006, 09:41 AM
  #51
LeMAD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuuuuu View Post
Ryder goes nowhere unless a goal scorer is coming back.

If nothing else changes, we could always go with something like this:

Top Line:
Samsonov - Koivu - Kovalev

Line that Faces Other Team's Top Line:
Higgins - Plekanec - Johnson

Offensive Line:
Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Ryder

Fourth Line:
Murray - Bonk - Begin

I like that lineup. If Ribs and Ryder feel like playing good hockey this year this could be pretty strong...

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07-14-2006, 09:44 AM
  #52
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Ok I changed my mind. I'd rather see this:


Higgins - Koivu - Ryder
Samsonov - Ribeiro - Kovalev
Perezhogin - Plekanec - Johnson
Murray - Bonk - Begin

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07-14-2006, 10:32 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
You can argue? Show me. Because all your doing is passing judgement on Ryder's play based on a handful of games (since by your own admission you don't watch regular season games) and making uninformed parallels with injuries that don't apply.

I guess it's just a lost cause since you don't watch the games in the first place... but please don't write up a storm when you clearly (mostly by your own admission) aren't in a position to do so. We all know your "other" issues with hockey and it wouldn't suprise me if that, and not Ryder's play in the 6 games you watched, is why you want to get rid of the guy.

Don't get your hopes up, his name won't change to Michel Ridiér.
Can you ever respond to someone without attacking their point of view? How old are you? I'm guessing around 20......because all you do is attack anybody who doesn't share your opinion. I watch ALL the games and read alot of these posts, and there is no concensus on Ryder....Half the people like/love him because he scores, the other half like him, but, if we could get what were lacking in a trade (big center) then Ryder would be a valuable commodity/asset. (unlike the crappy package deals everyone puts together...).....So YOUR opinion is YOUR opinion, but it is not shared by all........maybe when you grow up a bit you'll realize when someone disagrees with you, it's not necessarily an insult.....

Actually...maybe your 17.....

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07-14-2006, 10:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Nash13 View Post
Montreals problem isn't defensively, its putting the biscuit in the basket.

Of Montreals top six, i'd say Koivu/Higgins are probably the only good defensive player. Kovalev,Ryder, Samsonov, and Ribeiro are adequate. Not bad, far from great. Defensive isn't the habs problem thou.

Going defensively, i'd say Begin is one of the worst culprits of coughing up the puck at the blueline, or losing his stick.

Overall Montreal as a team has bought into a solid defensive game plan. Its not something i have worried about over the last 3 years. Scoring that is another matter.
Good post, my sentiments exactly.

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07-14-2006, 10:49 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
You can argue? Show me. Because all your doing is passing judgement on Ryder's play based on a handful of games (since by your own admission you don't watch regular season games) and making uninformed parallels with injuries that don't apply.

Lemieux had a herniated disc... true, but it became serious when it got infected and that's why it went from a common injury to one that kept him out for a long time.

Daze has a chronic back problem. Not a chronic herniated disc Out of the 5 or so operations he had on his back (apparently had 3 more this season so 8 but he hasn't played so I won't count them), the one for the herniated disc was the 3rd or 4th one and didn't end his season or anything. In fact he came back in March of that year and played through the rest of the season while logging 19-20 minutes of ice-time a night.

I guess it's just a lost cause since you don't watch the games in the first place... but please don't write up a storm when you clearly (mostly by your own admission) aren't in a position to do so. We all know your "other" issues with hockey and it wouldn't suprise me if that, and not Ryder's play in the 6 games you watched, is why you want to get rid of the guy.

Don't get your hopes up, his name won't change to Michel Ridiér.
Thanks for the injuries infos, I appreciate you gather all those infos in it tells me Ryder. As for the rest, well it doesn't take 80 games for a scout to judge a player... and with the amount of time I have seen Ryder over his past two seasons and considering my experience, I guess I am right. While everyone was considering Hossa a great goal scorer a few years ago, I pointed out how his goals were scored: mainly garbage goals.... same for Dagenais (isn't strange, he is a franco!!!), same for Zednik, same for Ryder.

We have several wingers that will soon show up: Perezhogin, A.Kostitsyn, Gabrovsky, Latendresse, S.Kostitsyn... and I expect Ryder to be the one who looses is spot in the roster, probably not next season, but at don't expect him to be with the team at the end of the 07-08 season.
By the way, if his name was Rydier, I would say what I am saying here... I don't care about a guy's origin if he shows up every night.

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07-14-2006, 10:51 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HABIMUS-MAXIMUS View Post
Can you ever respond to someone without attacking their point of view? How old are you? I'm guessing around 20......because all you do is attack anybody who doesn't share your opinion. I watch ALL the games and read alot of these posts, and there is no concensus on Ryder....Half the people like/love him because he scores, the other half like him, but, if we could get what were lacking in a trade (big center) then Ryder would be a valuable commodity/asset. (unlike the crappy package deals everyone puts together...).....So YOUR opinion is YOUR opinion, but it is not shared by all........maybe when you grow up a bit you'll realize when someone disagrees with you, it's not necessarily an insult.....

Actually...maybe your 17.....
What he's posting is false injury information, not an opinion. He's distorting facts and making things up to support his view on the guy and if I feel like calling him out for fudging details to manufacture a point-of-view, then that's my perogative. He's not even disagreeing with me or anything like that, I just picked out from this thread that he was delving out loads of false information and I guess if that's what you want to read when you come to a hockey board then so be it, but you'll also have to turn a blind eye when the person gets called out on it.

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07-14-2006, 11:18 AM
  #57
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So Ryder is not a great defensive forward yet. So what. His role is to play in the other teams zones, especially on PP and score goals. This guy has come a long way rising from ECHL dropout to 30 goal scorer in NHL - have to respect and appreciate that. Most good teams, even some Cup winners have a few of his type.

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07-14-2006, 11:35 AM
  #58
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Ryder has a knack for putting the puck in the net that you can't teach. So far, we can't say that Kostytsin, Perezhogin or Plekanec have what it takes to produce offensively (and consistently) in the NHL.

The guy is coming off a year where he still potted 30 despite a back injury that you would expect to slow him down in transition and affect most aspects of his game. I don't recall him being as tentative in his own end or as hesitant to take the body the year before the lockout. I think he's got a good attitude and will prove himself to be worth every penny the Habs are paying him this year.

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07-14-2006, 11:52 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
Lemieux had a herniated disc... true, but it became serious when it got infected and that's why it went from a common injury to one that kept him out for a long time.

Daze has a chronic back problem. Not a chronic herniated disc Out of the 5 or so operations he had on his back (apparently had 3 more this season so 8 but he hasn't played so I won't count them), the one for the herniated disc was the 3rd or 4th one and didn't end his season or anything. In fact he came back in March of that year and played through the rest of the season while logging 19-20 minutes of ice-time a night.
I feel I need to answer again to this post since someone tells me I am saying so many wrong things and exagerating everything... I might be wrong, but I am surely not making up the thruth. Still, the back problems of Ryder are far from being the reason why I don't think he will be kept on our roster more than two seasons.

Ryder didn't dress only once at the end of the season if I recall properly... I don't know if it was related to his back hernia... after all, we only heard he was injuried: it was never made official. Therefore the injury might not be that problematic, but since no one here knows the gravity of it, I prefer to be prudent.

However, Lemieux had surgery in 1990 and 1993 for back hernias (first a disc was removed and it got infected, second a muscle hernia) and missed several games:
sources: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...tml?offset=90&
http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84001.html

I don't know how the infection is related to the second hernia and don't know how many games he missed due to the infection... after all, an infection can be cured rapidly with antibiotics.

As for Daze, well he recently said he wouldn't get a fourth back surgery. His previous 3 surgeries were for disc hernia
source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1676196

I don't want to be the one who is absolutely right here. However, I would like to underline that I am not propagating false information, as I backed what I said with espn and the ny times. I guess Ryder only has a muscle hernia and no disc problems (lets surely hope so). Still, back or head injuries are never welcomed in one players' career.

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07-14-2006, 12:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
I feel I need to answer again to this post since someone tells me I am saying so many wrong things and exagerating everything... I might be wrong, but I am surely not making up the thruth. Still, the back problems of Ryder are far from being the reason why I don't think he will be kept on our roster more than two seasons.

Ryder didn't dress only once at the end of the season if I recall properly... I don't know if it was related to his back hernia... after all, we only heard he was injuried: it was never made official. Therefore the injury might not be that problematic, but since no one here knows the gravity of it, I prefer to be prudent.

However, Lemieux had surgery in 1990 and 1993 for back hernias (first a disc was removed and it got infected, second a muscle hernia) and missed several games:
sources: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...tml?offset=90&
http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84001.html

I don't know how the infection is related to the second hernia and don't know how many games he missed due to the infection... after all, an infection can be cured rapidly with antibiotics.

As for Daze, well he recently said he wouldn't get a fourth back surgery. His previous 3 surgeries were for disc hernia
source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1676196

I don't want to be the one who is absolutely right here. However, I would like to underline that I am not propagating false information, as I backed what I said with espn and the ny times. I guess Ryder only has a muscle hernia and no disc problems (lets surely hope so). Still, back or head injuries are never welcomed in one players' career.
The key word/sentence is in your own link: "But Mike Gapski, the team's head trainer, said Tuesday the surgery is not related to previous problems." That's a chronic back problem.

It's different discs that he herniates each time. You can pretty much attribute that (and Lemieux's problems... although the infection made it much more serious) to both those guys being 6'6 235-240.

edit: What I'm pretty much saying is that Ryder should have no problems with his back in the next 4-5 years even though he suffered a herniated disc. The two guys you compared him with suffered much more trouble with herniated dics because of other factors.

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07-14-2006, 12:14 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
I feel I need to answer again to this post since someone tells me I am saying so many wrong things and exagerating everything... I might be wrong, but I am surely not making up the thruth. Still, the back problems of Ryder are far from being the reason why I don't think he will be kept on our roster more than two seasons.

Ryder didn't dress only once at the end of the season if I recall properly... I don't know if it was related to his back hernia... after all, we only heard he was injuried: it was never made official. Therefore the injury might not be that problematic, but since no one here knows the gravity of it, I prefer to be prudent.

However, Lemieux had surgery in 1990 and 1993 for back hernias (first a disc was removed and it got infected, second a muscle hernia) and missed several games:
sources: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...tml?offset=90&
http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1984/84001.html

I don't know how the infection is related to the second hernia and don't know how many games he missed due to the infection... after all, an infection can be cured rapidly with antibiotics.

As for Daze, well he recently said he wouldn't get a fourth back surgery. His previous 3 surgeries were for disc hernia
source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1676196

I don't want to be the one who is absolutely right here. However, I would like to underline that I am not propagating false information, as I backed what I said with espn and the ny times. I guess Ryder only has a muscle hernia and no disc problems (lets surely hope so). Still, back or head injuries are never welcomed in one players' career.
Even if the back problem did not keep Ryder out of the lineup, it could very well have been the reason that he shied away from physical play, especially if every check he delivered or received caused extra pain or he had a fear that taking a hit would cause serious damage.

Just look at Zednik to see how an injury can change how you play.

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07-14-2006, 12:14 PM
  #62
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It makes sense to me. Plus there is a difference between muscle and disc hernia. I can admit I might exagerate Ryder's injury, but I hope to see someone correct a sentence were he said I made things up and stuff like that because obviously its wasn't right.

As I said anyway, Ryder's back problems won't be the reason why I see him leaving the club. Since Gainey arrived, Hossa, Dagenais and Zednik left. All these players could score goals, but were still traded.

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07-14-2006, 12:15 PM
  #63
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I disagree with the central points of this thread and find it poorly thought out.

First, how many teams have 4 wings on their first 2 lines who are good defensively? Second, Ryder plays on a line with Koivu and Higgins, who are both responsible defensively. Third, the line of Samsonov-Ribeiro-Kovalev is much more vulnerable defensively than that other line. Fourth, Ryder is capable of improving defensvely. You can't convert a grinder into a sniper but you can coach defense into almost anyone. Fifth, maybe every member of the Ribeiro line could use some defensive coaching. I can't say a lot about Samsonov, although Bruin fans think he isn't that great in his own end, but I think Ribeiro is wretched in his own end. Kovalev has lapses, but I have seen him bodycheck opposing forwards in the Habs end and he also gets the puck out of his end.

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07-14-2006, 12:34 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
Since Gainey arrived, Hossa, Dagenais and Zednik left. All these players could score goals, but were still traded.
Hossa - TOTAL NHL points: 35
Dagenais - TOTAL NHL points: 58
Zednik - Best NHL season points: 50

Ryder - Best NHL season points: 63

You my friend are still comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, let's put Hossa in the same breath as Ryder.

Thom

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07-14-2006, 12:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Hossa - TOTAL NHL points: 35
Dagenais - TOTAL NHL points: 58
Zednik - Best NHL season points: 50

Ryder - Best NHL season points: 63

You my friend are still comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, let's put Hossa in the same breath as Ryder.

Thom
Yeah, but their goals don't look nice so I guess they don't count on the scoreboard.

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07-14-2006, 12:43 PM
  #66
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what's the point of having a great coaching staff if they can't be used to help the players become better?
ryder WILL improve his defensive game as will samsonv (not sure about kovy, he's just kovy...but he does make some defensive gems from time to time).

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07-14-2006, 01:00 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Hossa - TOTAL NHL points: 35
Dagenais - TOTAL NHL points: 58
Zednik - Best NHL season points: 50

Ryder - Best NHL season points: 63

You my friend are still comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, let's put Hossa in the same breath as Ryder.

Thom
Different seasons, different talented teams: that is comparing apples with oranges. I am talking about the way the player scores his goals. I draw comparisons for all of them, but that can't translate into stats. Getting tired of repeating that stats are one thing and the way the guy plays on the ice is another thing.

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07-14-2006, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
Yeah, but their goals don't look nice so I guess they don't count on the scoreboard.
You can laft, I am confident on this prediction. Ryder will probably have a Anson Carter career: great to complete two other players, but can't build a play by himself.

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07-14-2006, 01:09 PM
  #69
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You can laft, I am confident on this prediction. Ryder will probably have a Anson Carter career: great to complete two other players, but can't build a play by himself.

I agree somewhat to that statement, it really remains to be seen what sort of career Ryder will have he still is young and only has a couple seasons under his belt at this point.

I think Carter deserves alot of respect hes not the greatest skater but he knows where to go and when to go there to score goals, I think if Ryder ends up as a Carter sort of player we should not be disapointed either he is a good second line player who can put up 30 goals a year.

I think its wise for Gainey to sign Ryder to short term deals right now though because he really has not proven enough at the NHL level. I watched every habs game lastyear and even though Ryder had a 30 goal season there is great room for improvement in his game right now he is purely a shooter plain and simple it would be nice to see him develop some puck and defensive skills to complement the dangerous shot he can muster.

Ryders trade value I think is very simalar to Riberos, they are young and new to the NHL relatively and have much more value in montreal to the fans in particular then they would in any other team in the NHL so I dont think we would get as good value for a trade that includes them.

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07-14-2006, 01:24 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
Different seasons, different talented teams: that is comparing apples with oranges. I am talking about the way the player scores his goals. I draw comparisons for all of them, but that can't translate into stats. Getting tired of repeating that stats are one thing and the way the guy plays on the ice is another thing.
Well then, you can have your precious Dagenais, Hossa and Zednik. I'll take Ryder and Carter and any other so-called "garbage" goal scorer believe me. I'd rather have them on my team any day of the week and do you know why? Because "garbage" goal scorers work their *** off for goals, work in the corners, in front of the net, etc while pretty players like Hossa (snicker), Dagenais or Zednik float around, make a few good moves and slack off.

At the end of the day you can say whatever you want about how a player plays - but what matters most are the numbers they put up, like 6 game winning goals for Ryder. Please... you'd rather a flashy player that scores 30 points a year compared to a hard working, blue collar player that scores 65?? Wow.

Thom

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07-14-2006, 01:58 PM
  #71
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I just felt like posting this.

We should lock up Ryder, 4 years, 10 million.

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07-14-2006, 02:12 PM
  #72
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Well then, you can have your precious Dagenais, Hossa and Zednik. I'll take Ryder and Carter and any other so-called "garbage" goal scorer believe me. I'd rather have them on my team any day of the week and do you know why? Because "garbage" goal scorers work their *** off for goals, work in the corners, in front of the net, etc while pretty players like Hossa (snicker), Dagenais or Zednik float around, make a few good moves and slack off.

At the end of the day you can say whatever you want about how a player plays - but what matters most are the numbers they put up, like 6 game winning goals for Ryder. Please... you'd rather a flashy player that scores 30 points a year compared to a hard working, blue collar player that scores 65?? Wow.

Thom
I'll try to watch more games, because I love hard working players and dislike floaters.... and from the games I saw, Ryder wasn't in the category of hard working players at all. In his rookie season Julien had to make him jump some shifts to make him know he wasn't in the game... and at the beginning of last season when he scored two winners in the first two or three games, he was invisible all game long untill he pushed a free puck in front of the net (at least once, but I remember both goals weren't pretty). For me the hard workers on this team are Begin, Bouillon, Koivu and Murray. Anyway Thom, we will have time to talk about this an other time. Ryder out before the end of 07-08 or lost throught UFAs.

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07-14-2006, 02:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
I'll try to watch more games, because I love hard working players and dislike floaters.... and from the games I saw, Ryder wasn't in the category of hard working players at all. In his rookie season Julien had to make him jump some shifts to make him know he wasn't in the game... and at the beginning of last season when he scored two winners in the first two or three games, he was invisible all game long untill he pushed a free puck in front of the net (at least once, but I remember both goals weren't pretty). For me the hard workers on this team are Begin, Bouillon, Koivu and Murray. Anyway Thom, we will have time to talk about this an other time. Ryder out before the end of 07-08 or lost throught UFAs.
I admitt that Ryder had some lacksidasical games, but earlier in the season, the games I attended, he looked like a burgoning power forward, winning plays along the boards, bowling over his opponents, and generally controlling the play.

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07-14-2006, 02:21 PM
  #74
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Ryder in his rookie season was all about hard work.

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