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Subban's play since coming back

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:33 PM
  #476
anofsti
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I really like Subban taking those hard slappers on the PP.
1) If they actually hit the net, they are really hard for a goalie to catch, and to controll, giving up rebound chances
2) They are a focus for every teams PK unit, both in terms of protecting against goals, and protecting their own bodies, two things that may make them hesitant, and unfocused on the other four Habs on the ice.

They also thrill me.

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02-22-2013, 01:07 PM
  #477
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I really like Subban taking those hard slappers on the PP.
1) If they actually hit the net, they are really hard for a goalie to catch, and to controll, giving up rebound chances
2) They are a focus for every teams PK unit, both in terms of protecting against goals, and protecting their own bodies, two things that may make them hesitant, and unfocused on the other four Habs on the ice.

They also thrill me.
Yeah, his shot is much more accurate than it used to be. Previously he would just crank it up and fire it wide of the net. Seems like he cared more about how hard it would hit than where it would land.

I also see the fans are 100% behind him. Whenever he has the puck they start cheering.

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02-22-2013, 03:20 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post

Which gets back to the point, Diaz has had crazy good results in not having goals against so far. but its probably more a matter of good fortune than talent and its not a reason to favour him over another RHD PMD that has a strong proven track record of being very effective at suppressing the oppositions offense for the shutdown role.
again showing a perfect example of the problem with ignoring observation in favor of over-relying on stats and past performance.


perhaps this example can help put it in context for you...

watching a nucks game not too long ago, Sedin's had been on a long shift, but creating lot's of havoc for the opposing team (iirc they had just 1 shot on net, but they were clearly "buzzing" in the offensive zone and protecting the puck effectively). there was a line change, then a small break in play, and next thing you know they are back on the ice.
Statistically, I'll bet that you can find concrete historical evidence that greater rest in between shifts (up to a certain point) correlates to higher scoring% for a line's next shift... yet here the coach "feels" that his top line is "clicking" (both observations that are more gut feeling than concrete statistically measurable "fact), so he throws them back out before they would have even had time to catch their breath...

result. Goal.

You can try to dismiss that as a "one-off" or "outlier", and you would be right to a degree. the thing is that quality observers can and do reliably read these kinds of subjective moments, and are able to seize on them.

no amount of statistical modelling can, in real-time, process and effectively act on this kind of vital information... and that is precisely what separates the best players/coaches/managers in the sporting world.


Diaz is playing very good hockey right now. that he is playing in front of Price, who is also playing very good hockey, doesn't reduce or detract from it. Dismissing it as such completely misses the reality of the ever-changing dynamics of sport. After-the-fact processing of information can explain what has happened, but can't predict what will happen.

coaches/gm's who focus too heavily on what a player has done vs. what they are doing in the present end up making the kind of bone-headed moves we saw so much around here the last few years...

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02-23-2013, 11:08 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
again showing a perfect example of the problem with ignoring observation in favor of over-relying on stats and past performance.


perhaps this example can help put it in context for you...

watching a nucks game not too long ago, Sedin's had been on a long shift, but creating lot's of havoc for the opposing team (iirc they had just 1 shot on net, but they were clearly "buzzing" in the offensive zone and protecting the puck effectively). there was a line change, then a small break in play, and next thing you know they are back on the ice.
Statistically, I'll bet that you can find concrete historical evidence that greater rest in between shifts (up to a certain point) correlates to higher scoring% for a line's next shift... yet here the coach "feels" that his top line is "clicking" (both observations that are more gut feeling than concrete statistically measurable "fact), so he throws them back out before they would have even had time to catch their breath...

result. Goal.

You can try to dismiss that as a "one-off" or "outlier", and you would be right to a degree. the thing is that quality observers can and do reliably read these kinds of subjective moments, and are able to seize on them.

no amount of statistical modelling can, in real-time, process and effectively act on this kind of vital information... and that is precisely what separates the best players/coaches/managers in the sporting world.


Diaz is playing very good hockey right now. that he is playing in front of Price, who is also playing very good hockey, doesn't reduce or detract from it. Dismissing it as such completely misses the reality of the ever-changing dynamics of sport. After-the-fact processing of information can explain what has happened, but can't predict what will happen.

coaches/gm's who focus too heavily on what a player has done vs. what they are doing in the present end up making the kind of bone-headed moves we saw so much around here the last few years...
Amen.

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02-23-2013, 10:15 PM
  #480
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Again an amazing game for Subban. Can't believe is not on the first wave PP. He need more time on the 5v5 too, Diaz is doing a good job but come on, our horse at the blue line right now is the 76.

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02-23-2013, 11:09 PM
  #481
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I hope nobody has a complaint for Subban this game. He was terrific. He's a real rock defensively. Great positional play but what I really like is his sense of anticipation, he's always there to cut a pass or just knock the puck away from the carrier. Got an assist and was a shot away from a goal. Too bad they kind of floated around the last 5 on 3. The game was in the bag though so can't really fault them. Honestly, his defensive play improved A LOT since his rookie season. He's really good defensively.

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02-24-2013, 04:03 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
I hope nobody has a complaint for Subban this game. He was terrific. He's a real rock defensively. Great positional play but what I really like is his sense of anticipation, he's always there to cut a pass or just knock the puck away from the carrier. Got an assist and was a shot away from a goal. Too bad they kind of floated around the last 5 on 3. The game was in the bag though so can't really fault them. Honestly, his defensive play improved A LOT since his rookie season. He's really good defensively.
The game was in the bag. Subban still tried taking a slapper which hurt the Rangers more than any goal could have done.

They then decided not to rub it in more than they had to. Yet we still roughed up Biron.

There are times where slowing down for the other team's sake is justified; the Post-Shatterankle is one of them, IMHO. 5 on 3 was the best way to protect Price's SO.


edit: Oh god, I did not even recognize myself with this avatar... yuk...


Last edited by PricePkPatch: 02-24-2013 at 05:23 AM.
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Old
02-24-2013, 05:04 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
again showing a perfect example of the problem with ignoring observation in favor of over-relying on stats and past performance.


perhaps this example can help put it in context for you...

watching a nucks game not too long ago, Sedin's had been on a long shift, but creating lot's of havoc for the opposing team (iirc they had just 1 shot on net, but they were clearly "buzzing" in the offensive zone and protecting the puck effectively). there was a line change, then a small break in play, and next thing you know they are back on the ice.
Statistically, I'll bet that you can find concrete historical evidence that greater rest in between shifts (up to a certain point) correlates to higher scoring% for a line's next shift... yet here the coach "feels" that his top line is "clicking" (both observations that are more gut feeling than concrete statistically measurable "fact), so he throws them back out before they would have even had time to catch their breath...

result. Goal.

You can try to dismiss that as a "one-off" or "outlier", and you would be right to a degree. the thing is that quality observers can and do reliably read these kinds of subjective moments, and are able to seize on them.

no amount of statistical modelling can, in real-time, process and effectively act on this kind of vital information... and that is precisely what separates the best players/coaches/managers in the sporting world.


Diaz is playing very good hockey right now. that he is playing in front of Price, who is also playing very good hockey, doesn't reduce or detract from it. Dismissing it as such completely misses the reality of the ever-changing dynamics of sport. After-the-fact processing of information can explain what has happened, but can't predict what will happen.

coaches/gm's who focus too heavily on what a player has done vs. what they are doing in the present end up making the kind of bone-headed moves we saw so much around here the last few years...
My good fellow, if you are looking at how to Vancouver Canucks run things for examples for a coaches knack over analysis I believe you may be quite mistaken in terms of what you saw. The Nucks organization is famous for leaning on analysis to come up with better ways of doing things and one of their most easily observable conclusions is to run out the Sedins whenever they see an offensive opportunity to exploit. What you witnessed likely could be the fruit of the methodologies I embrace and you deride.

Now for Diaz, he may be "in sync" in the defensive zone with Price. But there is a key problem with that in such things rarely lasting. Plus, as those discussing why he should not be pilloried for the New York game have so well pointed out, he has no control over the actions of his line mates. In that case is it not more prudent to rely on a player that can better control the balance of events and specifically, reduce the amount of offensive zone time the opposition has to work with? Mistakes by a 5 man unit in the defensive zone are inevitable in the long run in a parity league to favour the player with the proven track record of limiting the times in which your squad is most vulnerable to the opposition's talents and your own side's lapses?

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02-24-2013, 11:42 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
My good fellow, if you are looking at how to Vancouver Canucks run things for examples for a coaches knack over analysis I believe you may be quite mistaken in terms of what you saw. The Nucks organization is famous for leaning on analysis to come up with better ways of doing things and one of their most easily observable conclusions is to run out the Sedins whenever they see an offensive opportunity to exploit. What you witnessed likely could be the fruit of the methodologies I embrace and you deride.
i was more pointing out a specific situation, rather than an organizational direction.

the bolded part is the distinction I think that gets lost in the focus on analytics.

I don't think anyone needs a complex statistical analysis to figure out that you want to run your best offensive players whenever you see an offensive opportunity to exploit...

but even if a team did need advanced stats to come to that conclusion, deciding WHEN those situations to exploit occur, and making the judgement of sending out those players even if it means double shifting, are both decisions that are best made by the observer, not by following some predictive model based on previous data collection (though I'm sure you could find some stat junkie that could show numbers pointing to specific minutes of a given period where the specific opposing team/players are at their historically most likely to give up a goal... the numbers could be calculated, but I'd still prefer the expert/knowledgable coach go with his gut, then check out a stat sheet to make those decisions.)


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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Now for Diaz, he may be "in sync" in the defensive zone with Price. But there is a key problem with that in such things rarely lasting. Plus, as those discussing why he should not be pilloried for the New York game have so well pointed out, he has no control over the actions of his line mates. In that case is it not more prudent to rely on a player that can better control the balance of events and specifically, reduce the amount of offensive zone time the opposition has to work with? Mistakes by a 5 man unit in the defensive zone are inevitable in the long run in a parity league to favour the player with the proven track record of limiting the times in which your squad is most vulnerable to the opposition's talents and your own side's lapses?
they may be "rarely" lasting, but it is precisely the players/coaches/managers who are best able to take advantage of those "rare" exceptions, and succeed because of it.

being able to read the human beings in front of them is what best translates to success. That's not to say stats aren't useful, and any team would be stupid not to take advantage of the leaps and bounds being made in that area to help direct their decision making... but ultimately the real time/ever changing/unstable realities of human interaction are still best computed & interpreted in the moment by the expert brain.

The pats (as I understand it) are, like the nucks a team that relies heavily on advanced stats and playing the odds for most of their decision making... yet back in the early 2000's, when they decided to roll with a young, unproven kid, instead of re-inserting the established, successful, veteran... many people questioned them (both on the "code" that injury shouldn't cost a vet starter his job, and on the numbers which pointed heavily towards Blesoe as their best bet for success...)
a decade later Brady is still proving that his coaches gut instinct was correct.

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02-24-2013, 12:35 PM
  #485
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Man, great interview pre-Rangers game

http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/video...204365&lang=en

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02-28-2013, 04:43 AM
  #486
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Still getting benched during games. I'm still trying to understand the rationale. 4th in TOI for the season.

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02-28-2013, 05:31 AM
  #487
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Still getting benched during games. I'm still trying to understand the rationale. 4th in TOI for the season.
20 min a game on average, on a winning team. Pretty sure he doesnt complain as much as you do

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02-28-2013, 06:02 AM
  #488
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Still getting benched during games. I'm still trying to understand the rationale. 4th in TOI for the season.
9 points in 14 match

His better PPG ratio ever.

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02-28-2013, 06:56 AM
  #489
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20 min a game on average, on a winning team. Pretty sure he doesnt complain as much as you do
I have an issue with him being benched during games while other players are allowed to make mistake after mistake.

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9 points in 14 match

His better PPG ratio ever.
Not sure what that has to do with anything.

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02-28-2013, 07:52 AM
  #490
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Still getting benched during games. I'm still trying to understand the rationale. 4th in TOI for the season.
My understanding is that MT consider Subban not as an established dmen, but still as a young rising star that needs coaching to reach his potential.

MT seems to deal with the young players using the old carrot and stick, but in a very paternalist way since the communication seems to be good between him and the youngsters.

Personally, I think it suits Subban's personality very well and it will actually help him (and the Habs) on the long run.

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02-28-2013, 07:57 AM
  #491
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Not sure what that has to do with anything.
Off course you don't.

MT and the coaching staff is doing their best to shape Subban into a reliable star. Which means tempering him with more and less TOI at times. So far, I say it produces results. MT should keep doing it as long as he has the defensive depth to do so.

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02-28-2013, 08:13 AM
  #492
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My understanding is that MT consider Subban not as an established dmen, but still as a young rising star that needs coaching to reach his potential.

MT seems to deal with the young players using the old carrot and stick, but in a very paternalist way since the communication seems to be good between him and the youngsters.

Personally, I think it suits Subban's personality very well and it will actually help him (and the Habs) on the long run.
I disagree. I feel we're holding PK back.

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02-28-2013, 08:25 AM
  #493
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I disagree. I feel we're holding PK back.
How so? Put together a list of his strengths and weaknesses. With the team performing so well, and the fact they seem to have a long range plan, staff has the luxury of working on eliminating those weaknesses from his game. He will be better for it over the long haul. PK is a great player with a high ceiling. He is getting help in getting there.

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02-28-2013, 08:58 AM
  #494
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Great chance to watch OEL play against Brodin tonight. As much as this will irk many of you, I feel wronged by the reaction so many of you gave me when I said that OEL is a monster and will be a constant Norris contender as early as this year. I don't care anymore to compare him to PK, but those of you who can lose the pride should do yourselves the favor of watching this kid. Simply a dominant Dman at every inch of the ice. Maybe chat about it in the out of town thread so to keep the bickering at the minimum.

PK is getting the icetime he deserves. Kid still makes some of the most ******** decisions. Needs to iron out those mistakes. Perfect time to step up last night, with Diaz out, but he failed. Needs to get back to the simple game he was playing to start the year.

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02-28-2013, 09:01 AM
  #495
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Great young player, just keeps getting better . Future Norris winner. Just win baby.

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02-28-2013, 09:24 AM
  #496
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Great chance to watch OEL play against Brodin tonight. As much as this will irk many of you, I feel wronged by the reaction so many of you gave me when I said that OEL is a monster and will be a constant Norris contender as early as this year. I don't care anymore to compare him to PK, but those of you who can lose the pride should do yourselves the favor of watching this kid. Simply a dominant Dman at every inch of the ice. Maybe chat about it in the out of town thread so to keep the bickering at the minimum.
Still haven't seen him yet.
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PK is getting the icetime he deserves. Kid still makes some of the most ******** decisions. Needs to iron out those mistakes. Perfect time to step up last night, with Diaz out, but he failed. Needs to get back to the simple game he was playing to start the year.
Completely disagree and you lose a lot of credibility here. Last year I might've agreed at the start of the year but he's improved tremendously and there's absolutely NO reason for him to be getting the little ice time that he is.

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02-28-2013, 09:25 AM
  #497
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How so? Put together a list of his strengths and weaknesses. With the team performing so well, and the fact they seem to have a long range plan, staff has the luxury of working on eliminating those weaknesses from his game. He will be better for it over the long haul. PK is a great player with a high ceiling. He is getting help in getting there.
The icetime he's getting is silly. He's clearly a solid number one and we're playing him like a third pairing blueliner.

It's stupid.

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02-28-2013, 09:35 AM
  #498
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I think Subban is the best defenseman on the team and deserves more minutes. With that said, while most of his attributes (ie. strength, speed, defensive play and shot) are are above average, his vision is terrible. He seriously needs to learn how to make the smart, simple and brutally obvious passes that he does not even attempt. He coughs up the puck in situations that he shouldn't even have it in. Whether if it is because he simply doesn't see the passes or his ego gets in the way, it's a problem. It is the area where he can improve the most.


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02-28-2013, 10:21 AM
  #499
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How so? Put together a list of his strengths and weaknesses. With the team performing so well, and the fact they seem to have a long range plan, staff has the luxury of working on eliminating those weaknesses from his game. He will be better for it over the long haul. PK is a great player with a high ceiling. He is getting help in getting there.
Sometimes I feel like I'm reading someone speak of this up and coming prospect who's getting his first cracks at the NHL, or a guy like Weber or a bit better.

He is playing with Francis Bouillon on a 3rd pairing while Emelin is looking absolutely lost on his off wing.
He is used 53sec on the PK per game when he was our best PK player in the previous years either with Gill or Gorges. He is also 2sec short of being the least used Dman at Even Strength. That alone is already ridiculous.
Everytime he has the puck and goes in his ''PK mode'' where he would create some interesting things last year (granted, sometimes it lead nowhere and caused turnovers), he stops and goes for a simple pass or dump in.
He rarely goes up in the offensive zone anymore. He doesn't seem to look for those big major hits anymore. You never see him get in the opposition's face.

He plays a very calm and discreet game, or at least he's trying to.

He doesn't look like the PK of the two previous years, and I don't think this is coming from him.

Last year he was trying to do too much, now we have him do way to little, to the point where he looks confused at times.

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02-28-2013, 10:31 AM
  #500
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He does need a little more leash from the coaching staff, a little more controlled mayhem. But he's been very effective so far and should be a horse in the playoffs. Time management has been a crucial part of the new philosophy, and it's worked for everyone.

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