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Old
02-22-2013, 04:50 AM
  #151
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Gardiner + Grabovski

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02-22-2013, 07:26 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Bogo was awful his first 3 years. Lets not try to sugar coat this, Sean Couturier may not be putting up offensive numbers out of this world, but in his own zone there's no other player in this league I trust more. The kids instincts and ability to shut down top players in this league is something you can't teach. As I stated above, he's starting to get confidence in the offensive zone, and is now playing the point on the 2nd PP unit. I've never been impressed with Bogo, he has all the tools and no toolbox. The only thing holding Sean back at this point is his foot speed. If he can work on that, he's going to be a very unique and skilled player.
Sorry man, but that is just a horrible assessment of talent. Bogo has been back 4 games after surgery to repair a chronic wrist injury and has easily been the Jets d-man logging 25 min a night. The only negative thing you can say about Bogo is he hits the post with an amazing high % of his shots. You can't trade for a 22 year old top pairing d-man with a second/third line forward. Sorry, but you just can't.

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02-22-2013, 08:49 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Not for sale.
As well thought out as your response is, I think you have been watching hockey long enough to know that simply isnt true. Anyone is for sale if the deal make sense for both sides.

As for an offer from the Habs.

Tinordi + Eller would be my offer.

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02-22-2013, 08:55 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Flyers do neither of those for Pietrangelo or OEL.

Also, 50 point potential is his floor, not his ceiling. It'll be interesting to see what happens to him behind Giroux and Schenn.

That said, you saw a lot of his offensive ability tonight; lots of big body work, low on the boards, puck-handling in tight spaces, making clean passes.

Couturier's offense is going to be just fine. People who can't see flashes haven't been watching. Where there's smoke there's fire, especially if there was burning down entire forests in juniors.

The arguments against Couts' offense remind of the ..."Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 50 point winger with 40 assists." ...to "Oh, Giroux will never be anything more than a 65 point forward with 40 assists." ...to "Oh Giroux will never be a consistent point-per-game player." ...to "Oh, ****."

The problem is, you are saying he is worth a stud dman who has already proven his worth where as Coots has not proven much yet. Potential is one thing but dont get carried away

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02-22-2013, 09:55 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Jagorix View Post
It's not a hard concept. "More proven with great potential" will beat out "somewhat proven with great potential" any day of the week. Nobody's arguing Couturier can't or won't be a great player, but his value isn't yet in the same category as most of those defensemen listed.

Edit: in fact, I'd say the problem is the opposite of what you said. A lot of Philly fans say Couturier's already pretty good, but has so much room to grow, and that' why he's so valuable. Yet all those defensemen are still very young and have plenty of room to grow themselves, yet have proven more so far.
So why is Morgan Reilly on the list then?

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02-22-2013, 10:01 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
The problem is, you are saying he is worth a stud dman who has already proven his worth where as Coots has not proven much yet. Potential is one thing but dont get carried away
Holding one of the best players in the world to 2 ES points while on the ice with him in the playoffs while netting a hat trick and 4 points in one of those games and acting as a shutdown center for a playoff team playing against every teams top players all season with talbot and rinaldo as linemates for the majority of the season and still finishing with 27 points all at the age of 18-19 isn't proving much huh?

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02-22-2013, 10:03 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Holding one of the best players in the world to 2 ES points while on the ice with him in the playoffs while netting a hat trick and 4 points in one of those games and acting as a shutdown center for a playoff team playing against every teams top players all season with talbot and rinaldo as linemates for the majority of the season and still finishing with 27 points all at the age of 18-19 isn't proving much huh?
That he's a 3rd line center? Because it doesn't prove he'll be anything more. You can talk potential and pedigree all you want, but those player have those too on top of being more proven.

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02-22-2013, 10:10 AM
  #158
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That he's a 3rd line center? Because it doesn't prove he'll be anything more. You can talk potential and pedigree all you want, but those player have those too on top of being more proven.
Yes because CLEARLY players who accomplish these things at the age of 18 will just always be that and nothing more. That's logical.

You're equating the idea of potential to some sort of guess. I would agree with you if he was unable to play meaningful minutes and wasn't producing much and not providing anything, and we were sitting here discussing his potential as we are now, but you're completely refusing to acknowledge that he's incredibly young and accomplished things that kids his age simply do not do.

Yet by your logic, there's as good of a chance that he will just never get better than what he is as an 18-20 year old, while Bogosian can still get better.

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02-22-2013, 10:17 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Yes because CLEARLY players who accomplish these things at the age of 18 will just always be that and nothing more. That's logical.

You're equating the idea of potential to some sort of guess. I would agree with you if he was unable to play meaningful minutes and wasn't producing much and not providing anything, but you're completely refusing to acknowledge that he's incredibly young and accomplished things that kids his age simply do not do.
Where did I say that he wasn't going to get better? You refuse to acknowledge that not only are most of the players that were listed better players than him right now but they also have room to get much better. D-men usually take longer to develop anyway.

I don't think a young Jordan Staal, who had a better rookie season than Couturier, was worth a top pairing d-man in his 2nd season. What exactly has Sean Couturier done to be held in a higher regard?

Couturier isn't a lock to be a first line center. He hasn't proven anything other than he's a 3rd line center. Most of those players have proven to be top pairing d-men. There's a difference.


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02-22-2013, 10:35 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Holding one of the best players in the world to 2 ES points while on the ice with him in the playoffs while netting a hat trick and 4 points in one of those games and acting as a shutdown center for a playoff team playing against every teams top players all season with talbot and rinaldo as linemates for the majority of the season and still finishing with 27 points all at the age of 18-19 isn't proving much huh?
tons of guys have had 1 good season and 1 awesome series and still been average after that. I am not saying that Coots will be average, I am just saying that he has not reached his peak as a player or interms of value as well.

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02-22-2013, 10:55 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Holding one of the best players in the world to 2 ES points while on the ice with him in the playoffs while netting a hat trick and 4 points in one of those games and acting as a shutdown center for a playoff team playing against every teams top players all season with talbot and rinaldo as linemates for the majority of the season and still finishing with 27 points all at the age of 18-19 isn't proving much huh?
Oh please. That whole series was a joke.

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Old
02-22-2013, 11:36 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by seanerixon View Post
I love Coots and all, but 70+..? I feel like you're at least giving him 20+ points than what's realistic. I'm thinking 50 at most.. Perhaps average 40+ season average. Giroux is our top line center, and will most likely stay that way. So being on the second line at best, I just don't see 70+ happening.

So realistically, and in my dreams, I would try and go for that 1st overall at the draft for Seth Jones somehow. But that's just me, I'm positive not many other Flyers fan really care for that idea. Plus finishing in that bottom 14 gives us a chance regardless!

Holy crap, I can't believe some people are really saying Coots has more value than Bogo.. If that were true.. and possible, I'd drive Coots to Peg right now and scoop Bogo. Or better yet, just wait until they play in Philly, leave Bogo here and take Coots with ya!
Exactly, i think Sean is a good player and a good prospect, but he is nowhere near a Seguin/Hall level. Those guys have 80Pt+ potential, Sean is likely a 55pt player (max) with great defensive abilities.

No way in hell is he worth more than a top 2 D.

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02-22-2013, 11:40 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Kangiroux View Post
So
Couturier + Coburn

Couturier + Read

Couturier + Mezsaros

Couturier + 1st/2nd

???
how hard is it to understand none of those gets you piertangelo, oel, or shattenkirk

?????????????

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02-22-2013, 11:58 AM
  #164
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I would trade Petry for Couturier straight up. A #2 center for a #2 Dman.

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02-22-2013, 12:04 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
The problem is, you are saying he is worth a stud dman who has already proven his worth where as Coots has not proven much yet. Potential is one thing but dont get carried away
I'm not saying Couturier is worth anything. I don't know why people assume things like this.

I'm explaining a baseline as to what I believe the organization must have before they let go of Couturier.

Actual worth and organizational worth are very different things. In essence, the world does not exist in a vacuum.

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02-22-2013, 01:00 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
So why is Morgan Reilly on the list then?
Mystery box syndrome plus Toronto hype machine.

Of the people on that list, Bogosian, Hedmen had better years than Rielly in their draft years than Rielly is having this year.

Fowler, Kulikov and Yandle also had better seasons numbers, but admittedly they were playing on much better teams than Moose Jaw.

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02-22-2013, 01:04 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
how hard is it to understand none of those gets you piertangelo, oel, or shattenkirk

?????????????
Shattenkirk yes
Pietrangelo No
oEL maybe

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02-22-2013, 01:10 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
Exactly, i think Sean is a good player and a good prospect, but he is nowhere near a Seguin/Hall level. Those guys have 80Pt+ potential, Sean is likely a 55pt player (max) with great defensive abilities.

No way in hell is he worth more than a top 2 D.
Agreed on the fist part...the 80pt+ potential. But 55 max???? Where do you get that from? In JR...2 years of way over PPG. Voted best prospect. Voted MVP. The AHL this season. Almost PPG playing on the 2nd line. When he is in an offensive role, he produces. I bet next year he is a 50+ point guy...and over 60 the year after. This is assuming Philly starts using him as an offensive player more of course. Which I hope DOESN'T happen until he signs a bridge contract!

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02-22-2013, 02:21 PM
  #169
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Agreed on the fist part...the 80pt+ potential. But 55 max???? Where do you get that from? In JR...2 years of way over PPG. Voted best prospect. Voted MVP. The AHL this season. Almost PPG playing on the 2nd line. When he is in an offensive role, he produces. I bet next year he is a 50+ point guy...and over 60 the year after. This is assuming Philly starts using him as an offensive player more of course. Which I hope DOESN'T happen until he signs a bridge contract!
You really think he is a 30 goal 50 assist type of guy?

I see him being a 20-25 goal and 30-40 assist type of guy.

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02-22-2013, 02:46 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Sorry man, but that is just a horrible assessment of talent. Bogo has been back 4 games after surgery to repair a chronic wrist injury and has easily been the Jets d-man logging 25 min a night. The only negative thing you can say about Bogo is he hits the post with an amazing high % of his shots. You can't trade for a 22 year old top pairing d-man with a second/third line forward. Sorry, but you just can't.
Its not a horrible assessment of talent, mind you I saw him more when the team was in Atlanta, but I would say the say thing about Brayden Coburn. Guys 6'5, skates like the wind, has all the athletic talent in the world.. but nothing between the ears. What I'm saying is Couturier has just as much potiental if not more than Bogo. He's 20 years old and currently playing behind Giroux and B.Schenn two guys who aren't so bad themselves. In addition, playing on the 3rd line, in a shutdown role is comfortable for a kid who excels in those areas. Couts peak is somewhere around Bergeron/Kesler, I guess in my opinion Bogo will never be a true #1 on any team in this league. The Flyers are in need of a true stud, and Bogo isn't it.

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02-22-2013, 03:32 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Its not a horrible assessment of talent, mind you I saw him more when the team was in Atlanta, but I would say the say thing about Brayden Coburn. Guys 6'5, skates like the wind, has all the athletic talent in the world.. but nothing between the ears. What I'm saying is Couturier has just as much potiental if not more than Bogo. He's 20 years old and currently playing behind Giroux and B.Schenn two guys who aren't so bad themselves. In addition, playing on the 3rd line, in a shutdown role is comfortable for a kid who excels in those areas. Couts peak is somewhere around Bergeron/Kesler, I guess in my opinion Bogo will never be a true #1 on any team in this league. The Flyers are in need of a true stud, and Bogo isn't it.
I was a big flyers fan before the Jets returned. I watch a lot of Philly games. You are incorrect.

When Bogosian was Couturiers age he was outscoring him. As a defensemen. There are teams now that Bogosian would be a #1 defecemen on. At worst he's a 22 year old smooth skating puck moving physical #2 with a huge shot that can play 23+ shutdown minutes a night. That's his floor because that is what he currently is. At Couturiers age Bogosian was better than Couturier currently is.

Bogosians potential is Shae Weber. They play a very similar game. Bogosian is better now, and has always been better than Couturier when they were the same age.

He had one mediocre season where he over thought his game.

At 18 Bogosian out scored Couts. At 19 he did the same. Playing as a two way defencemen. They are not comparable in anyway, you are completely over valuing Couturier based on potential when Bogosian is currently better, has always been better, while having as high if not higher potential. Last year at 21 Bogosian got 3 more points in 12 less games. Couturier is a good player no doubt. He's not even close to Bogosian and saying he is is a huge homer comment

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02-22-2013, 05:27 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Kangiroux View Post
Shattenkirk yes
Pietrangelo No
oEL maybe
OEL maybe? Based off of what? A guy playing so good at age 21 that he makes Yandle expendable is worth Couturier and a 1st?

No thanks.

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02-22-2013, 05:49 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Lolnowayhaha View Post
I'm a flyers fan and it's laughable how much flyers fans overrate Sean "hands of stone" Couturier..


Bogo >>> Coots AINEC.
Hands of stone???? His hands are top 5 on the Flyers!
He's rated an 8.5 C on this very website! Easily the most underrated player on this site hands down.

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02-22-2013, 10:43 PM
  #174
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Hands of stone???? His hands are top 5 on the Flyers!
He's rated an 8.5 C on this very website! Easily the most underrated player on this site hands down.
No. No he's really not....

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02-22-2013, 10:49 PM
  #175
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Hands of stone???? His hands are top 5 on the Flyers!
He's rated an 8.5 C on this very website! Easily the most underrated player on this site hands down.
8.5 C from this site, wowserzzzz

couturier for crosby ++

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