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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-22-2013, 02:38 PM
  #651
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Can the op please update that I have Hershey's picks at 386,442, and 447. Just don't want there to be no confusion when those picks roll around.
Pretty sure the trade wasn't processed yet because it was conditional and kind of fell through the cracks after VI picked. I'll update it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Thanks guys.

Don Luce and Joe Klukay will give me a pretty strong PK unit , and they are capable of providing ES offense on top of their two-way play.It's not going to be as offensively talented as some other 3rd lines in the draft , but they'll be very effective in a more traditionnal 3rd line role , which is to chip in at even strenght while being good defensively.They also are pretty big guys and won't be intimidated at all.
I ran the top 20 finishes of a couple of defensive wingers when I decided to draft Armstrong and Leswick. This are strict finishes and don't take linemates into account (such as the fact that Prentice almost always played on Bathgate's line and Duff spent significant time on Beliveau's wing). I'm not going to bother cleaning up the format.

George Armstrong
G 13 15 16 19 20
A 12 18 17 11
P 15 16 16 18 18

Dick Duff
G 8, 9, 11, 16, 20
A none
P 17, 19

Dean Prentice
Goals 4, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18
Assists 8, 13, 14, 14, 15, 15
Points 10, 12, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20

Nick Metz
G 13*, 15, 16, 18
A none
P 14
*War year

Joe Klukay
G 11
A 17
P none

Tony Leswick
G 6 9 17
A 16
P 17 17 19

Marty Pavelich
no top 20s

Klukay is a great defensive winger, but I would not call him a two-way player.

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02-22-2013, 02:42 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pretty sure the trade wasn't processed yet because it was conditional and kind of fell through the cracks after VI picked. I'll update it now.



I ran the top 20 finishes of a couple of defensive wingers when I decided to draft Armstrong and Leswick. This are strict finishes and don't take linemates into account (such as the fact that Prentice almost always played on Bathgate's line and Duff spent significant time on Beliveau's wing). I'm not going to bother cleaning up the format.

George Armstrong
G 13 15 16 19 20
A 12 18 17 11
P 15 16 16 18 18

Dick Duff
G 8, 9, 11, 16, 20
A none
P 17, 19

Dean Prentice
Goals 4, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18
Assists 8, 13, 14, 14, 15, 15
Points 10, 12, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20

Nick Metz
G 13*, 15, 16, 18
A none
P 14
*War year

Joe Klukay
G 11
A 17
P none

Tony Leswick
G 6 9 17
A 16
P 17 17 19

Marty Pavelich
no top 20s

Klukay is a great defensive winger, but I would not call him a two-way player.
Fine , I was more talking about Luce anyway and there's a strong chance my RW will have some offensive upside.Klukay's job is more on the forecheck , he was very physical and an excellent PKer.

I apologize for the confusion/misinformation.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 02-22-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Old
02-22-2013, 02:52 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
The impression I got from doing a bit of research on Goyette was that he wasn't really a defensive ace so much as he was an offensive player that couldn't crack the lineup and needed to do something to stay afloat in Montreal...so he was probably decent defensively, but it probably wasn't a natural fit, born out of necessity basically...

That was just an impression though, I can't really say for sure unless I go back and watch him...

Still a very good player regardless, not knocking the pick...
In terms of his reputation, I can only comment on his time in New York. For a while, Goyette centered what was known as the Old Smoothies line (corny name, I know) with a couple of strong two-way veteran wings, and as a unit they were known for being very good both ways. Goyette, as the center, was the most important part of the line defensively, and by all accounts, he centered the unit very well. Like I said, he's not a traditional shutdown 3rd liner, but more of a two-way player who is an elite playmaker among the traditional third liners (not counting the Henrik Sedins of the world) and checks well enough to center a legit two-way unit. Next to Cecil Dillon, it seems like a perfect fit.

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02-22-2013, 02:58 PM
  #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I ran the top 20 finishes of a couple of defensive wingers when I decided to draft Armstrong and Leswick. This are strict finishes and don't take linemates into account (such as the fact that Prentice almost always played on Bathgate's line and Duff spent significant time on Beliveau's wing). I'm not going to bother cleaning up the format.

George Armstrong
G 13 15 16 19 20
A 12 18 17 11
P 15 16 16 18 18

Dick Duff
G 8, 9, 11, 16, 20
A none
P 17, 19

Dean Prentice
Goals 4, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18
Assists 8, 13, 14, 14, 15, 15
Points 10, 12, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20

Nick Metz
G 13*, 15, 16, 18
A none
P 14
*War year

Joe Klukay
G 11
A 17
P none

Tony Leswick
G 6 9 17
A 16
P 17 17 19

Marty Pavelich
no top 20s

Klukay is a great defensive winger, but I would not call him a two-way player.
I'm pretty sure that at least Prentice and Armstrong got substantial powerplay time in compiling those numbers. Klukay is no Ramsay offensively, but for a pure checkingliner, he actually seems to have been fairly competent in terms of even-strength offense. Around 30 points/season (which is what he generally hit during his prime) was a good offensive output for a checkingliner in that era.

edit: Armstrong also spent a good deal of time with either Keon of Kelly centering his line, and also played with Mahovlich and Pulford.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-22-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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Old
02-22-2013, 03:09 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'm pretty sure that at least Prentice and Armstrong got substantial powerplay time in compiling those numbers. Klukay is no Ramsay offensively, but for a pure checkingliner, he actually seems to have been fairly competent in terms of even-strength offense. Around 30 points/season (which is what he generally hit during his prime) was a good offensive output for a checkingliner in that era.

edit: Armstrong also spent a good deal of time with either Keon of Kelly centering his line, and sometimes played with Mahovlich.
Who centered Klukay? I know he spent at least some time with Ted Kennedy and wouldn't be surprised if they were regular linemates.

Prentice played all or most of the PP in New York with at least 2 very good PP players. Armstrong played a regular PP shift, but Toronto rotated their PP forwards and didn't really give any of them a lot of PP time (this is the argument as to part of the reason Mahovlich's numbers were hurt by playing in Toronto).

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02-22-2013, 03:16 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Who centered Klukay? I know he spent at least some time with Ted Kennedy and wouldn't be surprised if they were regular linemates.

Prentice played all or most of the PP in New York with at least 2 very good PP players. Armstrong played a regular PP shift, but Toronto rotated their PP forwards and didn't really give any of them a lot of PP time (this is the argument as to part of the reason Mahovlich's numbers were hurt by playing in Toronto).
I tried to find out who Klukay's linemates were very quickly and didn't find any clear info.Legendsofhockey state that he played with Max Bentley but the way they phrased it it implies that he played with others as well.

I might check it out more in depth later , but either way it's not like Klukay's offense is that important to the big picture.

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02-22-2013, 03:20 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
I tried to find out who Klukay's linemates were very quickly and didn't find any clear info.Legendsofhockey state that he played with Max Bentley but the way they phrased it it implies that he played with others as well.

I might check it out more in depth later , but either way it's not like Klukay's offense is that important to the big picture.
I know that Klukay played on Kennedy's left side when they matched up against the Production Line in the playoffs - no idea if they were regular linemates though.

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02-22-2013, 03:21 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I know that Klukay played on Kennedy's left side when they matched up against the Production Line in the playoffs - no idea if they were regular linemates though.
Yes , and Klukay had the most difficult job of shadowing Howe (being LW vs RW).

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02-22-2013, 03:29 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Who centered Klukay? I know he spent at least some time with Ted Kennedy and wouldn't be surprised if they were regular linemates.

Prentice played all or most of the PP in New York with at least 2 very good PP players. Armstrong played a regular PP shift, but Toronto rotated their PP forwards and didn't really give any of them a lot of PP time (this is the argument as to part of the reason Mahovlich's numbers were hurt by playing in Toronto).
Considering Toronto's depth at center at least during the early part of Klukay's career, it was obviously someone good. I don't know precisely who his linemates were, though. That's a little bit before my time.

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02-22-2013, 05:23 PM
  #660
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I gotta say...looking through Vs2 data and comparing certain players against one another, I am astounded by some of the strange valuations that persist in the ATD. Vs2 is not a perfect system, but it is in my opinion by far the best shorthand metric we have for comparing offensive production, and some of the results it yields are kind of bizarre in light of enshrined ATD draft positions. There are guys who seem to be entrenched as ATD scoringliners who look quite average, while others who are taken way late in the draft look really good. It is kind of...odd.

I will continue pointing out these strange comparative values when relevant players are drafted, but I wonder if anyone actually cares. There is a persistent conservatism in the ATD, and many GMs seem to have a hard time accepting any player whose value appears to change too much from the previous paradigm, however cogent or rational the argument for (or against) him. Actually, GMs seem to have little trouble panning players whose flaws are revealed, but players who appear to be "steals" are often widely attacked, sometimes with previous draft position put forth as the only argument against them.

It hasn't always been this way. There was a time when someone bringing forth new information on a great player who had been overlooked by the community was congratulated and thanked for the effort. Now such revelations seem to bring as much resentment as praise.

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02-22-2013, 05:33 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I gotta say...looking through Vs2 data and comparing certain players against one another, I am astounded by some of the strange valuations that persist in the ATD. Vs2 is not a perfect system, but it is in my opinion by far the best shorthand metric we have for comparing offensive production, and some of the results it yields are kind of bizarre in light of enshrined ATD draft positions.
VS2 is good for players who usually played on scoring lines. It's pretty hard on pre-expansion players who weren't first unit PP guys and absolutely brutal to pre-expansion checkers.

Quote:
There are guys who seem to be entrenched as ATD scoringliners who look quite average, while others who are taken way late in the draft look really good. It is kind of...odd.

I will continue pointing out these strange comparative values when relevant players are drafted, but I wonder if anyone actually cares. There is a persistent conservatism in the ATD, and many GMs seem to have a hard time accepting any player whose value appears to change too much from the previous paradigm, however cogent or rational the argument for (or against) him. Actually, GMs seem to have little trouble panning players whose flaws are revealed, but players who appear to be "steals" are often widely attacked, sometimes with previous draft position put forth as the only argument against them.

It hasn't always been this way. There was a time when someone bringing forth new information on a great player who had been overlooked by the community was congratulated and thanked for the effort. Now such revelations seem to bring as much resentment as praise.
I think it's generally better received when you call a player underrated than when you call some player overrated.

Maybe it just seems that way because I'm up soon, but this seems like the slowest draft day ever.

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02-22-2013, 06:03 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
... 1. There is a persistent conservatism in the ATD, and many GMs seem to have a hard time accepting any player whose value appears to change too much from the previous paradigm, however cogent or rational the argument for (or against) him. 2. Actually, GMs seem to have little trouble panning players whose flaws are revealed, but players who appear to be "steals" are often widely attacked, sometimes with previous draft position put forth as the only argument against them. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
VS2 is good for players who usually played on scoring lines. It's pretty hard on pre-expansion players who weren't first unit PP guys and absolutely brutal to pre-expansion checkers. I think it's generally better received when you call a player underrated than when you call some player overrated. Maybe it just seems that way because I'm up soon, but this seems like the slowest draft day ever.
Sturm. 1. Agreed for retired. The exact opposite for active players. 2. Your 2nd sentence literally makes no sense, because perceived steals such as Kevin Stevens are widely praised, not attacked, and their previous draft position is used to validate the praise, not attack the pick.

TDMM. Agreed with all your excellent points. I've been watching since January 2008 and this is smoothest running draft I've ever seen. That having been said there is a lot of thinking and trading OTC and not sending lists going on in this draft. This is a great part of the draft though. There are many great players left, but they are close enough in value and GMs are looking for different positions and different qualities in the same positions that everyone's draft list is different and GMs don't have to be really concerned about their top 5 picks being taken right before them.

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02-22-2013, 06:35 PM
  #663
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Sturm. 1. Agreed for retired. The exact opposite for active players. 2. Your 2nd sentence literally makes no sense, because perceived steals such as Kevin Stevens are widely praised, not attacked, and their previous draft position is used to validate the praise, not attack the pick.

TDMM. Agreed with all your excellent points. I've been watching since January 2008 and this is smoothest running draft I've ever seen. That having been said there is a lot of thinking and trading OTC and not sending lists going on in this draft. This is a great part of the draft though. There are many great players left, but they are close enough in value and GMs are looking for different positions and different qualities in the same positions that everyone's draft list is different and GMs don't have to be really concerned about their top 5 picks being taken right before them.
Well, I think this is what Sturm is talking about. I think Kevin Stevens was a fine selection when he was picked, but he wasn't a steal. And it seems like the only argument that he was a "steal" is his past draft position.

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02-22-2013, 06:44 PM
  #664
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HC Donbass selects Jean Pronovost, RW

All-Star: 3,5,5 plus some votes in other 3 seasons

Goals: 4,7,8,10,15
ES-Goals (since he won't get much PP-time): 4,5,8,9,14
vs. 2 point finishes (undderrates him, since he is a goalscorer): 87, 69, 61,58, 53, 52

Good two-way player - got some selke consideration, some quotes, seems like he killed penalties regulary.

I'll try make a bio on him, if have enough time...

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02-22-2013, 07:58 PM
  #665
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HC Donbass selects Jean Pronovost, RW

All-Star: 3,5,5 plus some votes in other 3 seasons

Goals: 4,7,8,10,15
ES-Goals (since he won't get much PP-time): 4,5,8,9,14
vs. 2 point finishes (undderrates him, since he is a goalscorer): 87, 69, 61,58, 53, 52

Good two-way player - got some selke consideration, some quotes, seems like he killed penalties regulary.

I'll try make a bio on him, if have enough time...
Damn, I was hoping he'd slide down.....

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02-22-2013, 08:56 PM
  #666
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Kenora picks RW Rene Robert

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02-22-2013, 09:03 PM
  #667
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Kenora picks RW Rene Robert

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02-22-2013, 09:07 PM
  #668
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Lloyd Cook, D



PCHA First Team All-Star: 1920, 1921, 1923
PCHA Second Team All-Star: 1916, 1918, 1919

PCHA Champion in 1915, 1918, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924
Stanley Cup Champion in 1915

Fast, tough, steady defensively, capable of rushing the puck. Served as player-coach for the Vancouver Millionaries / Maroons for a few years - I think including the 4 PCHA titles in a row from 1921-24. I like Cook a lot as a well-rounded #4 in this.

Full profile here (thanks Nalyd): http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=121

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02-22-2013, 09:35 PM
  #669
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Well, I was banking on being able to pick Rene Robert here and basically re-create the French Connection line on steroids, but it's going to have to be a different approach. I'll select RW Eddie Oatman



A great bio can be found here, done by seventieslord:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=145

Between he and Ovechkin, there should be enough grittiness to win some pucks in the corners, but the bread and butter of this line is going to be the transition game. Taylor was known for his end to end rushes and blinding speed, Ovechkin can fly and is at his best on the rush in transition, and Oatman gives them an option who can both shoot and pass that can keep up in transition.

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02-22-2013, 09:53 PM
  #670
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leafs select

MIKE Babcock coach

pm next gm

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02-22-2013, 10:00 PM
  #671
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Lloyd Cook, D
Die in a fire....


Quote:
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I'll select RW Eddie Oatman
Please follow TDMM....



Cook has an excellent offensive peak. Even in you consolidated the leagues, he ends up with 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, which is very impressive. I was hoping to land him as a #5.

Oatman is who we almost picked when we took Stasiuk. He's a better overall player, but we felt Stasiuk really gave is a lot of flexibility going forward.


Have no idea why anybody would take Rene Robert before Oatman. Eddie Oatman is better than a lot of RWs who have gone. Can't believe VI didn't take Oatman to play with Dunderdale.

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02-22-2013, 10:11 PM
  #672
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Die in a fire....
Always nice to hear.

Is it wrong to think that little separates PCHAers Frank Patrick, Art Duncan, and Lloyd Cook in terms of quality? They all have different skillsets, of course. I've never been fully sold on Frank Patrick being anything more than a good #4 though, so maybe I'm underrating him, but his career was so short.

Quote:
Cook has an excellent offensive peak. Even in you consolidated the leagues, he ends up with 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, which is very impressive. I was hoping to land him as a #5.
Cook is too good to be a #5, IMO. I honestly thought he was the 4th best defenseman on last year's championship team, even if arrbez played Cook on his bottom pairing because of skillsets.

Quote:
Oatman is who we almost picked when we took Stasiuk. He's a better overall player, but we felt Stasiuk really gave is a lot of flexibility going forward.


Have no idea why anybody would take Rene Robert before Oatman. Eddie Oatman is better than a lot of RWs who have gone. Can't believe VI didn't take Oatman to play with Dunderdale.
Robert seems tougher than Oatman, and Robert can play the point on the PP, which is nice. Agree with you that Oatman is better as an overall player than Robert and some other RWs who have been drafted.

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02-22-2013, 10:29 PM
  #673
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I will say it is the point aspect that sold us... can play the right side to Lidstrom or Pratt on the PP plus be a nice gritty third liner... I think that is more valuable than taking Oatman even if he might be a bit better but then needing a PP specialist also

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02-22-2013, 10:32 PM
  #674
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Cook is weird in that his numbers are greater than his acclaim. Writers of the day fawned over Duncan as he essentially replaced Taylor as the offensive leader of the Millionaires, but Cook put up comparable numbers and was an afterthought.

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02-22-2013, 10:39 PM
  #675
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Cook is weird in that his numbers are greater than his acclaim. Writers of the day fawned over Duncan as he essentially replaced Taylor as the offensive leader of the Millionaires, but Cook put up comparable numbers and was an afterthought.
Duncan did have that one huge year that Cook didn't have, but at a quick glance, Cook seems to have been an impact player for longer. He does have 1 additional all-star nod.

Strange too in that you seem to have found more praise for Cook's defensive game than Duncan's, right? The press reports seem to talk about Duncan as a major puck rusher and Cook more as a guy who picked his spots, yet their numbers are pretty close.


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