HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Somethings gotta give in Toronto.. Carolina?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-22-2013, 05:04 PM
  #101
Brock Anton
Deal with it.
 
Brock Anton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Westerly, RI
Country: United States
Posts: 12,725
vCash: 500
JR loves Liles. Wouldn't shock me at all if that's who he is going after.

Him and Ehrhoff are two guys he's always wanted but has never been able to land.

Brock Anton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 05:08 PM
  #102
SexyJoffreyLupul
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I never said Fraser was bad, Fraser is awesome. HOLZER being good and steady/blah blah blah is a myth. The guy is awful.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#
Look at those numbers.

Next week.

I don't care about his points, he's playing poorly as a defensive dman. It's that simple.
Why doesn't Holzer's plus minus correlate with his corsi? with such a bad corsi you would expect a worse plus minus but instead we kostka and phaneuf with worse plus minuses. Holzer may give up a lot of shots but if they're all perimeter shots i'd take that all day compared to a D with amazing corsi but gives up 5 quality chances a night.

Quality of competition also needs to be factored in.

SexyJoffreyLupul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 05:10 PM
  #103
snizzbone
Give me the puck ;-)
 
snizzbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,504
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SexyJoffreyLupul View Post
Why doesn't Holzer's plus minus correlate with his corsi? with such a bad corsi you would expect a worse plus minus but instead we kostka and phaneuf with worse plus minuses. Holzer may give up a lot of shots but if they're all perimeter shots i'd take that all day compared to a D with amazing corsi but gives up 5 quality chances a night.

Quality of competition also needs to be factored in.
Phaneuf/Kostka pairing just didn't work out too well in the early goings of the season. Since they've been switched off from each other they have been much better.

snizzbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 05:20 PM
  #104
QMJHLfollower
Heart and soul
 
QMJHLfollower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,259
vCash: 500
Jamie McBain, Victor Rask, Riley Nash, 2nd round pick 2013 for John-Michael Liles, Carl Gunnarsson, Clarke MacArthur

QMJHLfollower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 05:20 PM
  #105
SexyJoffreyLupul
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowzie View Post
Phaneuf/Kostka pairing just didn't work out too well in the early goings of the season. Since they've been switched off from each other they have been much better.
the idea that corsi alone determines whether a player is playing well or not without looking at
+\- is wrong. If those two stats don't correlate then third variables are also in play. Context is incredibly important.

SexyJoffreyLupul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 05:42 PM
  #106
GordieHoweHatTrick
Registered User
 
GordieHoweHatTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 13,015
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I never said Fraser was bad, Fraser is awesome. HOLZER being good and steady/blah blah blah is a myth. The guy is awful.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#
Look at those numbers.

Next week.

I don't care about his points, he's playing poorly as a defensive dman. It's that simple.
Disagree.

1) Those numbers don't mean he's awful, they mean he gets outshot when he's on the ice and thats hardly a decisive indicator of a defensive d-man's effectiveness 2) Sample size is too small to really gauge just how badly he gets outshot. In the long run he will likely average out to something close to Phaneuf's corsi numbers (-12.6). 3) Back to Phaneuf. The two are paired together and we already know Phaneuf plays against the opposition's best players, therefore Holzer must be too (20th toughest minutes in the NHL to be exact, as per behindthenet). 4) Holzer has good speed and has been using his long reach very well. For a defenseman who is playing his first few games in the NHL I'd argue he's been playing very well, steadily improving.

GordieHoweHatTrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 05:43 PM
  #107
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,299
vCash: 500
I think the difficulty in making any trade right now for Nonis, is that you have to improve your team.

Yes, JML is a healthy scratch, but given an injury or two he could be a reasonably important defenceman again. The team is sitting basically on the edge of a playoff spot... and you're going to start clearing out bodies for picks/prospects?? It's certainly not the right move, from an optics perspective.

Then you've gotta ask yourself, how can you improve in a deal with Carolina? There doesn't seem to be a way to do that. Toronto's issue this year has been that they haven't been able to win a high-scoring game... beyond the Staals, who on the Canes can actually make a difference?

seanlinden is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:26 PM
  #108
jeromeo87
Registered User
 
jeromeo87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
Jamie McBain, Victor Rask, Riley Nash, 2nd round pick 2013 for John-Michael Liles, Carl Gunnarsson, Clarke MacArthur
How about you keep Liles and we keep McBain?

jeromeo87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:39 PM
  #109
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Not anymore he isn't. Defensively Phaneuf, Holzer, Fraser and Franson are much more dependable.

Maybe the Canes would go for a 2nd. Gunnar doesn't have the greatest value at the moment.
Your opinion. It's contrary to most others.

birddog* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:43 PM
  #110
Badger Mayhew
Registered User
 
Badger Mayhew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,634
vCash: 500
I'd love to get Victor Rask as the return for a defenseman, but is he available Canes fans?

Badger Mayhew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:45 PM
  #111
jeromeo87
Registered User
 
jeromeo87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
I'd love to get Victor Rask as the return for a defenseman, but is he available Canes fans?
..maybe? It would have to be for a very reliable dman.

jeromeo87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:54 PM
  #112
Tony Clifton Leaf
A Mouthful
 
Tony Clifton Leaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,279
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
How about you keep Liles and we keep McBain?
So

Rask + Nash + 2013 2nd

for

Gunnarson + Macarthur


It`s a pretty reasonable offer. I think both Macarthur and Gunnarson are worth roughly a 2nd + a prospect, so I think we might be able to get more value than that moving them separately, especially closer to the trade deadline.

How about this:

Rask + 2013 2nd + Daniel Altshuller + 2013 5th round pick

Nash really doesn`t interest me at all.

Tony Clifton Leaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:55 PM
  #113
TieClark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,098
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Velvet Hammer View Post
Why do we trade arguable our best d-man last year for a pick when we need him... he might not be healthy, but when he is he's a beast...

that makes 0 sense, to trade a good d for a pick, are we rebuilding? do we have an abundance or carl gunnarson?? we can several liles' and kostka's but 1 gunnar.
Carl Gunnarsson is brutal... even when healthy. Liles is far, far, far better than him in pretty much every aspect

TieClark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:55 PM
  #114
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
I never said Fraser was bad, Fraser is awesome. HOLZER being good and steady/blah blah blah is a myth. The guy is awful.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#
Look at those numbers.

Next week.

I don't care about his points, he's playing poorly as a defensive dman. It's that simple.
He's some numbers for you --

Leafs are 7-4 since he's been called up. 7-3 since he started to get time with Phaneuf.

Prior to his arrival Dion was a -6 paired with Kosta. In the games since Dion is even. Dion had 1 point in his first 8 games. 8 points in his last 10 paired with Holzer.

Fact: Dion plays much better paired with a big physical defender, just like he played his best hockey with Aulie.

I understand Corsi is the know all stat and trumps winning but lets pretend winning is important for a sec and we can live with a poor Corsi.

One other number for you -- 1.81 -- that's the Leafs goals against in the games Holzer has played.

So if it ain;t broke, lets find someone to blame and break it.

birddog* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 06:57 PM
  #115
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Liles is the logical choice since Gardiner is waiting in the wings. It makes sense to move some salary and get some flexibility back.

birddog* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:28 PM
  #116
calcal798
Registered User
 
calcal798's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,649
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Anton View Post
JR loves Liles. Wouldn't shock me at all if that's who he is going after.

Him and Ehrhoff are two guys he's always wanted but has never been able to land.
Victor Rask for Liles?

Itd probably be a 2nd otherwise but I feel like Rask is decent enough return, for me, I donno about Canes fans.

calcal798 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:31 PM
  #117
Anth93
Registered User
 
Anth93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
He's some numbers for you --

Leafs are 7-4 since he's been called up. 7-3 since he started to get time with Phaneuf.

Prior to his arrival Dion was a -6 paired with Kosta. In the games since Dion is even. Dion had 1 point in his first 8 games. 8 points in his last 10 paired with Holzer.

Fact: Dion plays much better paired with a big physical defender, just like he played his best hockey with Aulie.

I understand Corsi is the know all stat and trumps winning but lets pretend winning is important for a sec and we can live with a poor Corsi.

One other number for you -- 1.81 -- that's the Leafs goals against in the games Holzer has played.

So if it ain;t broke, lets find someone to blame and break it.
This is the only argument for Holzer as far as I'm concerned. We've been winning and he's the type of presence that Phaneuf needs. I challenge you guys to watch him closely, he looks clumsy all around in my opinion.

Anth93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:35 PM
  #118
Anth93
Registered User
 
Anth93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
vCash: 500
Does Carolina really need Liles though? Seems like they need a Gunnarsson more than anything.. Although consider he'll be playing with hip discomfort all season (probably operated on this summer), I doubt a team touches him..

Anth93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:36 PM
  #119
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 31,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
was listening to Dreger on TSN 1050 this morning. Dreger is confident that Nonis will need to make a move sooner rather then later. With a surplus of depth on the backend and bodies soon to come off the IR.

He mentioned that Carolina is "scouring" the market for a depth defenseman and Toronto makes a lot of sense, with Liles and Komisarek now being healthy scratches on a nightly basis.

Steve Simmonds hinted that he could see Liles going with some salary retained by Toronto... (but i wouldnt look into simmonds)
Why on earth should Toronto retain some salary for Liles in a deal with Carolina, aka a playoff competitor? I'd rather starve them out than give concessions in a deal that could easily be made with a team in the West.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:40 PM
  #120
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
This is the only argument for Holzer as far as I'm concerned. We've been winning and he's the type of presence that Phaneuf needs. I challenge you guys to watch him closely, he looks clumsy all around in my opinion.
He isn't smooth but he's a big body that isn't shy about contact. one of the few defencemen I've seen in recent years that will actually clear the crease for the Leafs. Fraser being the other. Always disturbing to watch guys like Komisarik, Liles,and others stands there while guys take pokes at the tenders.

Both him and Fraser aren't pretty moving the puck but they battle like warriors in the corners and in front.

birddog* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:43 PM
  #121
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 31,958
vCash: 500
To me, it doesn't make sense for the Leafs to be helping out any team in the East with NHL ready bodies when they are in direct competition for a playoff spot with them...

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:47 PM
  #122
Anth93
Registered User
 
Anth93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
He isn't smooth but he's a big body that isn't shy about contact. one of the few defencemen I've seen in recent years that will actually clear the crease for the Leafs. Fraser being the other. Always disturbing to watch guys like Komisarik, Liles,and others stands there while guys take pokes at the tenders.

Both him and Fraser aren't pretty moving the puck but they battle like warriors in the corners and in front.
Pretty funny how we draft Schenn and sign Komisarek, but it's Fraser who gives us that best stay at home game (small sample size).

Anth93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:48 PM
  #123
Anth93
Registered User
 
Anth93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
To me, it doesn't make sense for the Leafs to be helping out any team in the East with NHL ready bodies when they are in direct competition for a playoff spot with them...
It does if we can clear 4 million in cap space.

Liles will definitely help whichever team he goes to, but he's in the press box.. That can't be understated.

Anth93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:49 PM
  #124
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
It does if we can clear 4 million in cap space.

Liles will definitely help whichever team he goes to, but he's in the press box.. That can't be understated.
Really... what's that $4m in cap space going to be used for?

seanlinden is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 07:52 PM
  #125
Anth93
Registered User
 
Anth93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Really... what's that $4m in cap space going to be used for?
How are we supposed to know? All I know is that,

5.25 Lupul
5.5 Grabo
4.5 Komi
6.5 Dion
3.8 Liles

Count me as someone who's hoping to see this list get smaller.

Anth93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.