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Paper-tigers...soft and gutless. Over-reaction?

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Old
02-21-2013, 09:52 PM
  #26
DoubleK81
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Some of you guys are absolutely PATHETIC. You just have to ***** about something ALL THE TIME.

We need to win games. 10 minutes to go, in a deadlocked game, on the road, is NOT the time to go after someone for what was ultimately a legal hit.

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02-21-2013, 10:03 PM
  #27
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Some of you guys are absolutely PATHETIC. You just have to ***** about something ALL THE TIME.

We need to win games. 10 minutes to go, in a deadlocked game, on the road, is NOT the time to go after someone for what was ultimately a legal hit.
Exactly.

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02-21-2013, 10:09 PM
  #28
STEVIE RAY BLUES
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Exactly.
I completely agree with both of you about the timing , but the fact that you said Ian Cole has been one of our top 4 defenseman this year made me cringe. We do need an upgrade there. Also for all the talk about how Chris Stewart has revamped his game this year I still think for a guy his size he plays way soft!! Can't remember the last 200 plus pound " power forward" who can't seem to lay a hit on anybody in the corner or take the damn puck to the net through the middle. Ya know Hitch keeps saying skill before work. I just think we have players entirely to comfortable in their jobs. I think this is the year we need to make some trades and no I don't know which trades would be the best but I can tell you this. This inconsistent mess I'm watching this year will not win the cup as they are today.

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02-21-2013, 10:46 PM
  #29
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This thread isn't about not getting instant retribution in a 0-0 game for a border-line dirty hit. It's about this team being fancy-nancies and offering no push-back when the going gets tough. Not having the desire to run someone over to make a play, or take a hit to make a pass. There's too much finesse and not enough effort. There's too much looking around for somebody who's going to stand up for his teammates, and not enough jumping to the aid of one's line-mate.

Remember back in the day when the Scottrade Center was a place where it was going to be hell for the opponent to visit? If they were going to get 2 points, which was seldom, they were going to have the bruises to show for it. Defending home ice was sacred and nobody came into the Blues' house and pushed them around. Now, everyone and their mascot is pushing the Blues around. The team gets punched in the mouth and says, "thank you may I have another". When are these guys going to man-up and say "enough is enough"? They need the attitude of, "we might not be the prettiest team to play against, but we're the toughest"...yet instead they play without a purpose, waiting for someone else to step up...someone else to make a play...someone else to change the momentum...someone else to get their nose dirty.

It's embarrassing how little character this team has. They can say "we've got to work harder" all they want...but when you're constantly getting bullied on the ice and having the other team impose their will upon you, it shows that they're lacking in heart.

I'm glad some of you are happy with this team. I'm not. This team may be the softest version of Blues hockey since...well, since ever.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:24 AM
  #30
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I think it's a clear overraction (answer to thread title).

As for Kimzey ... Kimzey, you hate Cole, we get it. He's not an NHL defenseman, blah blah blah. You're wrong, but it's ok to be wrong.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:40 AM
  #31
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Only answer to this is to run Olver everytime he gets on ice next game. Blues should also run Avs skilled players every chance they get. Play borderline hits on their players, take the penalty but send the message that borderline hits on Blues players will not be tolerated. League is too inconsistent on penalty calls and whether or not League discipline rules are enforced. Headshot suspensions are a crapshoot and so are whether or not calls are made during games. Backes penalty against Detroit is a prime example, good hit with no head contact, 5 min and game misconduct. Last night, questionable hit to head, no penalty and no league action despite League claiming that they are trying to take hits to head out of the league. League has claimed that onus to avoid headshots is on player making hit. There have been previous suspensions where player was clearly not trying to make head contact, but have been fined, suspended, or disciplined for the contact. If league and refs cannot consistently call or enforce unnecessary hits to the head, then the teams need to start enforcing questionable hits on the ice. Concussions seem to be way up since the instigator rule was introduced.

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02-22-2013, 12:58 AM
  #32
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Wait we've lost like 10 games or so in the last 2+ years at home and you're saying it's not tough to play? Obviously recently they've been bad, but that's a small sample size.

You have zero clue what you are talking about if you think it's easy to get two points against the Blues at Scottrade.

This whole thread is really a joke. Before we said we needed scoring (we got it) when we were a scrappy team with little talent and now we need toughness. Good lord people, make up your damn mind. You need to be able to score in the NHL today, this isn't the NHL of 10 years ago.

Do I wish we would of beat the living piss out of Olver till he couldn't move? Hell yeah. I hope the next time we play the Avs somebody takes him out or does the same thing to one of their top players.

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02-22-2013, 01:41 AM
  #33
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Earlier I said I was answering yes, over-reaction to the thread title. Just to add a bit, I remain in the camp that in a tied 0-0 game where you're pressing to get the winning goal and have been all game, it's a mature decision not to target an Av player and draw a penalty. There is nothing wrong or gutless or immature about this. In fact, the opposite. It's the sign of a more mature team. They just didn't happen to win because Varlamov played really, really well. Which happens, by the way. It's hockey. Goalies steal games. Even against the Mighty Blues.

Now, next game, pick the right situation (or the third meeting this season) and make a statement. But not in a situation where you're trying to win points. You're out of your mind if Hitchcock wants his team to take a retribution penalty in that situation late in the game.

If there's a safe situation in one of the next two games, absolutely, do something. And if there's a safe situation and they don't do something, THEN maybe ask if they're soft and gutless. Fair?

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02-22-2013, 02:17 AM
  #34
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I do think that the blues are a little timid. I noticed it last year and I have really seen it this year. If a team gets really physical with the blues they tend to back down. The other thing I have noticed is Backes doesn't go through people like he used to. I don't know if it is because he always is off to a slow start or what. The Blues do need some size and it would really be nice to get a bigger guy on D that can clear the crease. I hate watching the pk or just at even strength and the other teams forward stands right in front of our goalie with no one even touching him. Also I have noticed that Steen doesn't really hit like he used to and now shy's away from contact. Just watching the game last night he gets hit hard and then afterwards he is afraid to go into the corners for his next few shifts. The Blues are just a small team and the thing is small teams that don't hit have to get calls their way because they are so much faster and better skaters that when they fall it had to be because of a stick or holding etc. That is how the red wings got by all these years and how the hawks do it now. The difference is the blues aren't that lucky. I think its because we don't have a Kane, Towes, Zetterberg, Or Dats. That's just what I think though..

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02-22-2013, 05:51 AM
  #35
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i really have no response to all of this over-reaction but to laugh. seriously.

watch some eastern conference games and how often those games vacillate between sure win and mediocre loss. ice hockey is a game. goalies sometimes outplay everyone on the ice.

i'm gonna step away from this, cuz this merry-go round of **** idiocy is on a whole other level.

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Old
02-22-2013, 06:24 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
This thread isn't about not getting instant retribution in a 0-0 game for a border-line dirty hit. It's about this team being fancy-nancies and offering no push-back when the going gets tough. Not having the desire to run someone over to make a play, or take a hit to make a pass. There's too much finesse and not enough effort. There's too much looking around for somebody who's going to stand up for his teammates, and not enough jumping to the aid of one's line-mate.

Remember back in the day when the Scottrade Center was a place where it was going to be hell for the opponent to visit? If they were going to get 2 points, which was seldom, they were going to have the bruises to show for it. Defending home ice was sacred and nobody came into the Blues' house and pushed them around. Now, everyone and their mascot is pushing the Blues around. The team gets punched in the mouth and says, "thank you may I have another". When are these guys going to man-up and say "enough is enough"? They need the attitude of, "we might not be the prettiest team to play against, but we're the toughest"...yet instead they play without a purpose, waiting for someone else to step up...someone else to make a play...someone else to change the momentum...someone else to get their nose dirty.

It's embarrassing how little character this team has. They can say "we've got to work harder" all they want...but when you're constantly getting bullied on the ice and having the other team impose their will upon you, it shows that they're lacking in heart.

I'm glad some of you are happy with this team. I'm not. This team may be the softest version of Blues hockey since...well, since ever.
I think everyone forgets what used to happen at the end of a chippy game when Pronger was a Blue. Look out. Chelios got a major beatdown from Pronger just as the game ended for Chelios's tactics.. So the game ends? Who got run after they scored? Anyone? Did anyone shove anyone when this happened? No. It isn't about winning a scrum, it is about showing up. This episode could effect team unity the rest of the season. Mark my words. Hockey is a team game.

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Old
02-22-2013, 06:55 AM
  #37
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Wow. The Blues problems have been goal tending and scoring goals at even strength. Backes has not scored an even strength goal. Elliott has struggled. Russell has struggled and Redden is slow. Appreciate team toughness but that is not the Blues problem. This has been an odd season for many teams. Giant over reaction from most on this thread.

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Old
02-22-2013, 07:24 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
This thread isn't about not getting instant retribution in a 0-0 game for a border-line dirty hit. It's about this team being fancy-nancies and offering no push-back when the going gets tough. Not having the desire to run someone over to make a play, or take a hit to make a pass. There's too much finesse and not enough effort. There's too much looking around for somebody who's going to stand up for his teammates, and not enough jumping to the aid of one's line-mate.

Remember back in the day when the Scottrade Center was a place where it was going to be hell for the opponent to visit? If they were going to get 2 points, which was seldom, they were going to have the bruises to show for it. Defending home ice was sacred and nobody came into the Blues' house and pushed them around. Now, everyone and their mascot is pushing the Blues around. The team gets punched in the mouth and says, "thank you may I have another". When are these guys going to man-up and say "enough is enough"? They need the attitude of, "we might not be the prettiest team to play against, but we're the toughest"...yet instead they play without a purpose, waiting for someone else to step up...someone else to make a play...someone else to change the momentum...someone else to get their nose dirty.

It's embarrassing how little character this team has. They can say "we've got to work harder" all they want...but when you're constantly getting bullied on the ice and having the other team impose their will upon you, it shows that they're lacking in heart.

I'm glad some of you are happy with this team. I'm not. This team may be the softest version of Blues hockey since...well, since ever.
Relax. Take a deep breath. Everything will be ok.

Anyone else agreeing with this should do the same.

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Old
02-22-2013, 05:56 PM
  #39
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I kind of want to take the toughness/retaliation thing from a different angle after a few days to think it over. I don't think the Blues biggest problem is that they didn't or don't retaliate. I think the problem is that the Blues don't initiate. The Blues really have no one on the team that other teams have to look out for or that can get under their skin. Sobotka plays with an edge, but he wouldn't really fit the description. Perron used to be a pest-type player, but given the swing in penalties taken v drawn, I think he may have gotten a bit of a reputation around the league. The Blues need a big hitter or someone that can knock the other team off their game a bit. They need that role player or spark plug on the 4th line. The good news is that the type of player they need shouldn't cost much in a trade either in assets or dollars toward the budget.

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02-22-2013, 05:59 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
I kind of want to take the toughness/retaliation thing from a different angle after a few days to think it over. I don't think the Blues biggest problem is that they didn't or don't retaliate. I think the problem is that the Blues don't initiate. The Blues really have no one on the team that other teams have to look out for or that can get under their skin. Sobotka plays with an edge, but he wouldn't really fit the description. Perron used to be a pest-type player, but given the swing in penalties taken v drawn, I think he may have gotten a bit of a reputation around the league. The Blues need a big hitter or someone that can knock the other team off their game a bit. They need that role player or spark plug on the 4th line. The good news is that the type of player they need shouldn't cost much in a trade either in assets or dollars toward the budget.
You ever heard of David Backes?

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02-22-2013, 06:10 PM
  #41
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You ever heard of David Backes?
Have you watched David Backes this year?

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02-22-2013, 06:20 PM
  #42
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I don't think they are soft and gutless but I do agree with GrandPapillon. They need to add someone else.

I never thought I'd say it but I kinda wish we still had Crombeen. We traded him because we had a logjam of forwards but now Langenbrunner is out for the season and Peluso is also gone (who Armstrong said he viewed as someone who could have a future here and made Crombeen expendable). I know nobody could have predicted those two things happening, but my point is that we do lack a little bit of grit and could use another player on the 4th line who can drop the gloves. Our two best fighters are Reaves and Stewart - who are very good at it. But, Stewart is 4th on the team in points and playing like a top 6 winger right now, and, trading him off for another team's grinder to sit in the box isn't a good trade off for us so we don't always need him fighting. And Reaves is really good but as a heavyweight he's limited in who will drop the gloves with him. I mean, Olver certainly won't go with Reaves, and last year in the playoffs who knows if Dwight King would have even gone with Reaves? Reaves fights other enforcers for the most part, and while he's a great hitter, that's just his role. I feel like he can only do so much. I think we could use a guy like Crombeen again because he provides some of the things that we currently lack. As a middleweight, he's someone who has the ability to go with Dwight King and it isn't a mismatch. He can send messages, and get under the other teams' skin. And as a 4th-liner we don't lose a good player even if he has to sit in the box for 5 minutes. Now Crombeen's fights were never very exciting, but he was a vocal leader on the ice and in the lockerroom. Solid veteran guy who could also kill penalties. I think we could use another guy like that, maybe with a bit more skill; I'm not advocating trading back for him.

I'm glad they brought up Porter because he's a good 4th-liner. But guys like him and Sobotka are good for their forechecking and tenacity, not so much the other problems I'm talking about here. Nichol is getting old and has kind of lost his intensity aside from a couple games this year.

Certainly the Blues could use a guy on the blueline to provide some toughness and I would love a crease-clearer but those are also harder to find.

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02-22-2013, 06:33 PM
  #43
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Have you watched David Backes this year?
Yeah, and (prior to his groin injury) he was still hitting just as effectively as ever. Good grief, he got that awful penalty for doing this in the Red Wings game. He is lacking in point production, but not physicality (except that I do think he's playing hobbled a bit the last couple games).

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02-22-2013, 06:53 PM
  #44
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Yeah, and (prior to his groin injury) he was still hitting just as effectively as ever. Good grief, he got that awful penalty for doing this in the Red Wings game. He is lacking in point production, but not physicality (except that I do think he's playing hobbled a bit the last couple games).
I forgot that he tweaked his groin. There again, I am not talking about a 2-way physical center that we are lacking. I am talking about basically a 4th line energy player that other teams have to account for. A guy that can get the crowd going. I think this having a 4th line of Schwartz (or whoever else is in the doghouse), Nichol, and Reaves or worse when the Blues used to use D'Ags or Langenbrunner on the 4th line kind of defeats the purpose of having an energy line.

I know I will take a lot of grief for this, and I fully expect the "I don't want that puke on our team" comments, but I think the perfect guy to go get would be Kaleta from Buffalo. He is probably acquirable given the situation in Buffalo and that they added Ott last offseason. If he or Reaves could play LW, our 4th line would be Kaleta Sobotka Reaves. That line would have the fans buzzing and teams with their heads on a swivel. Seriously, that line is just nasty to think about playing against.

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02-22-2013, 09:12 PM
  #45
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This isn't just about the Tarasenko hit tonight.

I went to the game against the Kings. There were two pretty bad examples of this "Paper Tigers" phenomena.

The first instance was another hit on Tarasenko. No one responded to it, save for old man Redden, who went after the guy. It was a mentality thing that Redden had because he hadn't been here long enough. Everyone else thought it was okay that one of their players took a shot at our guy.

The other was the boarding to David Backes that sent him off the ice. It was clear what happened, and all our guys knew it. And yet play was stopped and they just sort of skated around as if they didn't even know the guy... who is their Captain!

I'm not saying we need to go head hunting or that we need to circle the calendar for retribution... hell, I remember being pretty pissed at Chase and writing up a column for suggesting we do that to Thornton after the Perron hit. We need to focus on winning, not settling scores.

But there needs to be some push back in real-time, some camaraderie in this team. And they just don't have it. With the exception of a few players, these guys act like sales-associates being paid on commission, rather than a team of hockey players.

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02-22-2013, 10:51 PM
  #46
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This isn't just about the Tarasenko hit tonight.

I went to the game against the Kings. There were two pretty bad examples of this "Paper Tigers" phenomena.

The first instance was another hit on Tarasenko. No one responded to it, save for old man Redden, who went after the guy. It was a mentality thing that Redden had because he hadn't been here long enough. Everyone else thought it was okay that one of their players took a shot at our guy.

The other was the boarding to David Backes that sent him off the ice. It was clear what happened, and all our guys knew it. And yet play was stopped and they just sort of skated around as if they didn't even know the guy... who is their Captain!

I'm not saying we need to go head hunting or that we need to circle the calendar for retribution... hell, I remember being pretty pissed at Chase and writing up a column for suggesting we do that to Thornton after the Perron hit. We need to focus on winning, not settling scores.

But there needs to be some push back in real-time, some camaraderie in this team. And they just don't have it. With the exception of a few players, these guys act like sales-associates being paid on commission, rather than a team of hockey players.
"Everyone else thought it was ok that one of their players took a shot at our guy." Yes this is shrewd analysis.

But wait, "[w]e need to focus on winning, not settling scores."

I don't even.

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02-22-2013, 10:52 PM
  #47
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Send Schwartz down to the AHL. Hving him on the 4th line is a total waste. He's a dynamic talent that gets now PP time or linemates.

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02-23-2013, 12:09 AM
  #48
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"Everyone else thought it was ok that one of their players took a shot at our guy." Yes this is shrewd analysis.

But wait, "[w]e need to focus on winning, not settling scores."

I don't even.
Settling scores was in reference to "circling the calendar" so to speak. Dragging out the idea of retribution for another day. That takes the focus off winning.

What I'd like to see is someone stand up during a game. You board our Captain, we board yours. That type of thing.

Right now, teams come to St. Louis knowing the Blues won't mind if you rough them up.

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02-23-2013, 12:22 AM
  #49
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If somebody gets a penalty after the Tarasenko hit the other night and they score on it, everybody would be saying how dumb it was and how we need to play with more discipline.

You can't please many around here.

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02-23-2013, 12:24 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by blue bleeder 24-7 View Post
Settling scores was in reference to "circling the calendar" so to speak. Dragging out the idea of retribution for another day. That takes the focus off winning.

What I'd like to see is someone stand up during a game. You board our Captain, we board yours. That type of thing.

Right now, teams come to St. Louis knowing the Blues won't mind if you rough them up.
It's not so much about circling the calendar and doing something on a specific day, but more at a smarter time. There is absolutely NO WAY Ken Hitchcock wanted a retribution action late in a scoreless third. He is the coach, he is correct not to want this, and the team did a very mature job NOT responding right then and there. There are two more games with Colorado and there will be moments either early in a game or if the Blues can mount a lead in either game (or somehow trail badly) where they can respond.

It wasn't soft, it was mature. It was exactly focused on winning the game and not settling the score. That immediate game. The Blues had just finished taking penalty after penalty in the third in Vancouver and you know Hitchcock had emphasized this being something you have to practice in the regular season if you want to be disciplined in the playoffs.

Is it frustrating to fans not to have revenge bloodlust immediately slaked? Sure, but the Blues have to put the priority on getting every possible point and they did that and I'm proud of them for that.

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