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Thanks for screwing us over (JVR)

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Old
02-22-2013, 10:19 PM
  #226
CanadianFlyersFan18
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I think it will be really interesting to see where JVR is if the Leafs team as a whole gets in a funk.
Their playing pretty good hockey in Toronto right now, but at some point I think every team struggles. The real test is going to be if JVR can elevate his game to be the guy who doesn't disappear when the going gets tough. Him and Kessel are the guys in Toronto, I wish him the best, but its been 16 games into a season... we've all seen 16 games of beast JVR before then we've seen Was JVR even playing? for another 10. Hope he puts it all together and has a strong year, he's a good kid just don't think he has the mentality to play in Philadelphia.

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02-22-2013, 10:38 PM
  #227
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24 points in 48 games isnt alot to be excited about. Even if it was 2nd to Giroux when JVR actually played. JVR was very productive in the Buffalo series, but that was a contract year for him. He didnt play with that intensity the following season.
I said before his injury (I don't remember his numbers maybe someone could help me out in that department). He played injured for a while and when he came back he never hit his stride as he was in and out on several occasions.


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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I really don't understand why people are saying this about the JvR-Schenn trade. The Flyers needed defensive help. Just because a young player was traded does not signify some sort of impatience. I don't understand how you can say the Flyers don't have patience, when they traded for a young defenseman with whom they know is going to take time to develop (i.e. patience). Now there may be other reasons out there that you could point to to support your "lack of patience" argument, but the JvR for Schenn trade is not one of them.
In general the flyers aren't patient. And yeah they addressed a need by getting Schenn and dealing from a point of strength but there were other options on d available. Schenn was acquired before we even knew definitively what was happening with Weber. I firmly believe that if JVR wasn't injured last yr and got to play a full season he would still be a flyer. That's partially why I consider them impatient.


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Old
02-22-2013, 10:43 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
Hopefully Schenn comes down to close to 215 (if his not already?), as opposed to close to 230. I say that because he had another level when he didn't put on the weight and had confidence.

Playing with timmy is also perfect pairing for him. You got a great kid in Schenn, just needs to watch his weight.

As for JVR, Carlyle has been a huge difference maker. Carlyle being straight with him and challenging him to go to the net and etc and then rewarding him with PK, PP1 and etc.
I think Schenn did drop some weight before the season. He looks quicker than he has in a few years. Hands are still stone though.

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02-22-2013, 11:02 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I said before his injury (I don't remember his numbers maybe someone could help me out in that department). He played injured for a while and when he came back he never hit his stride as he was in and out on several occasions.




In general the flyers aren't patient. And yeah they addressed a need by getting Schenn and dealing from a point of strength but there were other options on d available. Schenn was acquired before we even knew definitively what was happening with Weber. I firmly believe that if JVR wasn't injured last yr and got to play a full season he would still be a flyer. That's partially why I consider them impatient.
No doubt the Flyers are impatient. JVR was injured and young. He was here for what, 3 years? For teams like the NJ Devils and Detroit, JVR would have probably played 2 of those years in the minors because they try to develop players. Strangely, players actually benefit from the slow approach, but the Flyers and countless other teams don't seem to get that.

Having said that, I am not displeased with L. Schenn, but when he is not the next Chris Pronger in 3 years, he'll be dealt.

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02-22-2013, 11:36 PM
  #230
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JVR and Schenn are both good players. JVR has the top potential where he can take over games (as seen in spots for the Flyers) and Schenn is the rock that will be a solid defensive d-man for years to come. Both teams can do well in a trade.

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02-23-2013, 03:50 AM
  #231
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I like Luke, and I think it was a solid trade, but there's no doubt in my mind that the Leafs won this deal. JVR has elite talent while Schenn is at best a solid Adam Foote type defenseman.

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02-23-2013, 03:56 AM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I said before his injury (I don't remember his numbers maybe someone could help me out in that department). He played injured for a while and when he came back he never hit his stride as he was in and out on several occasions.
From memory he had 19 points in 21 games before his injury that year. He did earn them on the wing of Giroux and across from jagr who were both killing it. So that should matter in the evaluation of it. But still, I'm convinced that most of the people here are pretending there was no way JVR could've succeeded in Philly, or that he never showed his ability here are just trying to make themselves feel better after losing the trade. They're not going to see the facts because they don't want to. As for me I was annoyed when it happened and I'm not any more annoyed now because I was pretty confident JVR was going to have a good year.

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02-23-2013, 03:58 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Steeltown View Post
I like Luke, and I think it was a solid trade, but there's no doubt in my mind that the Leafs won this deal. JVR has elite talent while Schenn is at best a solid Adam Foote type defenseman.
In that case, neither team loses.

There's a strong tendency to mark trades as win/lose in a black and white fashion. In this case, it's entirely possible this will be a win/win, or strong win/win.

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02-23-2013, 04:01 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In that case, neither team loses.

There's a strong tendency to mark trades as win/lose in a black and white fashion. In this case, it's entirely possible this will be a win/win, or strong win/win.
I would classify this trade as they won and we didn't get purely screwed, as we did get a serviceable player in the deal. It it what it is. In a way I'm just glad JvR fis hitting his stride. Hopefully he can keep this rolling.

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02-23-2013, 04:28 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In that case, neither team loses.

There's a strong tendency to mark trades as win/lose in a black and white fashion. In this case, it's entirely possible this will be a win/win, or strong win/win.
Agreed. It worked out for both teams, but there is no doubting that JVR's ceiling is much higher than Luke's. We will see though.

JVR is on a different level talent wise than Luke.

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02-23-2013, 05:29 AM
  #236
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If we can just get Luke into the playoffs, we will see a different level of his game.

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02-23-2013, 05:50 AM
  #237
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If we can just get Luke into the playoffs, we will see a different level of his game.
I like what you did there.

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02-23-2013, 09:02 AM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I would classify this trade as they won and we didn't get purely screwed, as we did get a serviceable player in the deal. It it what it is. In a way I'm just glad JvR fis hitting his stride. Hopefully he can keep this rolling.
It is pretty short-sighted to call this trade a win or a loss for either side at this point. The trade is not even half of a shortened season old. JvR is off to a hot start. But that's it. I'm sure you probably would not have agreed that JvR was a bust after his first season in the NHL (or even his first three) because that was too soon to make that call, so why call a trade of two high ceiling prospects after less than twenty games a winner or loser?

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02-23-2013, 10:41 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Steeltown View Post
I like Luke, and I think it was a solid trade, but there's no doubt in my mind that the Leafs won this deal. JVR has elite talent while Schenn is at best a solid Adam Foote type defenseman.
Last time I checked Adam Foote was integral to his cup win

I LOVE Footes game, if Schenn can be that guy I'm happy.

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02-23-2013, 11:21 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
In general the flyers aren't patient. And yeah they addressed a need by getting Schenn and dealing from a point of strength but there were other options on d available. Schenn was acquired before we even knew definitively what was happening with Weber. I firmly believe that if JVR wasn't injured last yr and got to play a full season he would still be a flyer. That's partially why I consider them impatient.
In some respects I may agree with the Flyers lacking patience, but the JvR trade is not in any way a symptom of this. This defense was in trouble. Now and in the future. I don't see how the Weber deal (or lack there of) has anything to do with this deal? You think that if they got Weber they would have (or should have) said "Ok, we don't anyone else, especially a guy who could be an anchor of the blueline along with Weber for years to come."

I agree that if if JvR played a full season he may not have been dealt, but I also believe that if Richards and Carter didn't have any off-ice difficulties they would still be here. And if there wasn't a log jam on the team Patrick Sharp would still be here. And if Matt Carle wanted less money he would be here. And if the Flyers drafted Henrik Lundqvist he would be here. Etc, etc.

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02-23-2013, 02:10 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
From memory he had 19 points in 21 games before his injury that year. He did earn them on the wing of Giroux and across from jagr who were both killing it. So that should matter in the evaluation of it. But still, I'm convinced that most of the people here are pretending there was no way JVR could've succeeded in Philly, or that he never showed his ability here are just trying to make themselves feel better after losing the trade. They're not going to see the facts because they don't want to. As for me I was annoyed when it happened and I'm not any more annoyed now because I was pretty confident JVR was going to have a good year.
I agree with this.

Luke Schenn is a very fun player to watch (throwing all those big hits) and a pretty good defensive defenseman, but his value was not and is not now comparable to James Van Riemsdyk. If we didn't have Brayden Schenn on our team, I don't think Luke Schenn is in Orange and Black right now. It seems like we took a hit in value to unite the brothers.

Some of my fellow Flyers fans will continue to describe this trade as a "win-win" regardless of whether JVR puts up 30, 40, or 50 goals because they are incapable of criticizing Holmgren and admitting that maybe he made a mistake and we got the short end of a trade. But I won't agree with that. We threw a 2nd round pick to Dallas and acquired Nicklas Grossmann and for my money, I don't see a noticeable difference in the level of play of Luke Schenn and Grossmann.

And while some people will say "Schenn is only 23, he'll improve", that whole "he's young" excuse only works when the guy you're talking about has some tool that he's not using to the fullest advantage. If someone can inform me which of Schenn's tools (shot, speed, passing ability, etc.) that he's not using to his fullest, I'd love to hear it. The truth is, he's not a #1 defenseman, he was never thought of as an offensive dynamo #1 defenseman, and he never will be a true #1 defenseman.

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02-23-2013, 03:59 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It is pretty short-sighted to call this trade a win or a loss for either side at this point. The trade is not even half of a shortened season old. JvR is off to a hot start. But that's it. I'm sure you probably would not have agreed that JvR was a bust after his first season in the NHL (or even his first three) because that was too soon to make that call, so why call a trade of two high ceiling prospects after less than twenty games a winner or loser?
I wouldn't have agreed JvR was a bust after his first three seasons because he'd actually done some pretty impressive things and shown consistent progress aside from injuries. Not because three years isn't long enough, but because he had actually done some things in that three years.

As for the deal, I called it a poor trade before Schenn ever set foot in Philadelphia. And I can do that because the two guys traded were not unknown quantities. We've seen three seasons of each. I also disagree regarding Schenn's ceiling. If he fulfills his potential, he could be a sloth slow version of Braydon Coburn.

I don't dislike Luke Schenn either. He's playing his game as well as he can here and he's not a bad player. I understand he doesn't pick who he's traded for. I've said all I have to say about it at this point, I'm gonna let it go so as not to continuously harp on the negative.

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02-23-2013, 04:02 PM
  #243
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Honestly I like JVR and wish him luck but like someone said the leafs are playing pretty well right now, and I'm not saying this will happen, but if the past replicates itself JVR can go invisible really quick for long periods of time...if that happens leafs fans may slightly change their opinion.

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02-23-2013, 04:26 PM
  #244
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In some respects I may agree with the Flyers lacking patience, but the JvR trade is not in any way a symptom of this. This defense was in trouble. Now and in the future. I don't see how the Weber deal (or lack there of) has anything to do with this deal? You think that if they got Weber they would have (or should have) said "Ok, we don't anyone else, especially a guy who could be an anchor of the blueline along with Weber for years to come."

I agree that if if JvR played a full season he may not have been dealt, but I also believe that if Richards and Carter didn't have any off-ice difficulties they would still be here. And if there wasn't a log jam on the team Patrick Sharp would still be here. And if Matt Carle wanted less money he would be here. And if the Flyers drafted Henrik Lundqvist he would be here. Etc, etc.
Those are terrible comparisons and you know it. None of those have anything to do with patience. Waiting an extra year for JVR to get a chance to play a non injury riddled season has everything to do with impatience. Theres no guarantee that he'd be healthy the next yr but its not exactly like hes had chronic injury problems.

Concerning Weber you can't honestly tell me that if they had gotten weber for the picks and still having Coburn, grossmann, kimmo, mez and Gus that you think they still would have made that trade after losing jagr, cause that would be stupid.

Again I like the return, it could have been a little better IMO but that's not what we're talking about now.

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02-23-2013, 04:37 PM
  #245
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The one thing I never liked about Luke wasn't his physicality, but it's always been his skating. I just can't see one being a top flight defenseman in the league, as is, without at least moderate->good skating ability (and elite skaters have huge upside in this league). Schenn was a very poor skater, I think he dropped some weight this season but he's still very slow and lethargic. It's always going to be his achillies heel, and even if we are talking a Foote/Hatcher type player, I'd argue they don't translate as well in today's rules and play-style, which may end up hindering his ability even more.

Conversely, I expected JVR to be a horse-type player down low but his skating has been impressive...he's won many races at his top speed. If we're looking at a purely upside perspective, I feel the leafs got the superior talent. Doesn't mean anything if the development curve doesn't follow suit. However, Flyers addressed a large area of need and got a solid physical player that can be groomed into a leadership role down the line. Solid trade for both teams.

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02-23-2013, 05:07 PM
  #246
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The one thing I never liked about Luke wasn't his physicality, but it's always been his skating. I just can't see one being a top flight defenseman in the league, as is, without at least moderate->good skating ability (and elite skaters have huge upside in this league). Schenn was a very poor skater, I think he dropped some weight this season but he's still very slow and lethargic. It's always going to be his achillies heel, and even if we are talking a Foote/Hatcher type player, I'd argue they don't translate as well in today's rules and play-style, which may end up hindering his ability even more.

Conversely, I expected JVR to be a horse-type player down low but his skating has been impressive...he's won many races at his top speed. If we're looking at a purely upside perspective, I feel the leafs got the superior talent. Doesn't mean anything if the development curve doesn't follow suit. However, Flyers addressed a large area of need and got a solid physical player that can be groomed into a leadership role down the line. Solid trade for both teams.
See this is where Schenn takes a lot of abuse.. his skating actually is quite good for a man of his size. No it's not that of a #1 defensman but he is a top pairing man. His problem in Toronto was he was caught out of position a lot. The Flyers system is very aggressive and promotes players finishing the body so long as a forward(s) collapse down low. This has been a plus for Schenn, he's getting more time in the corners and the boards, which is where he excels. The help of Pronger, Kimmo etc haven't hurt either. JVR has top end talent for sure, but at this point with the Flyers offensive heating up, Im quite contend with a guy like Luke Schenn who isn't afraid to stay at home and take care of business in his own zone.

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02-23-2013, 05:32 PM
  #247
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Should have taken Voracek to begin with.

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02-23-2013, 05:37 PM
  #248
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JVR has started off a season hot like fire before, only to do absolutely nothing for months at a time.

Can't wait to see the posts from Leafs fans if that happens again.

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02-23-2013, 08:55 PM
  #249
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JVR has started off a season hot like fire before, only to do absolutely nothing for months at a time.

Can't wait to see the posts from Leafs fans if that happens again.
When? Last year with all his injuries?

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02-23-2013, 09:11 PM
  #250
CS
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I cry tears when I think about what could've been...

Hartnell - Giroux - vanRiemsdyk
Simmonds - Schenn - Read
Laughton - Couturier - Voracek


TEARS DAMMIT! TEARS!

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