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Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

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02-23-2013, 05:54 AM
  #26
SilverSeven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Bobby Hull. Counting his WHA career he scored more than 900 goals implying that he had a chance to be the first in scoring.

He can also be cosidered as best of all time.

PS Didn't see luch of Orr tapes compared to, say, Hull but something tells me he is a bit overhyped. It is American culture to love one single moment not the whole career.
The thread is very specific that this is about NHL careers. The WHA was a bit of a joke either way, but in this instance it certainly has no merit.

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02-23-2013, 05:59 AM
  #27
Bob Loblawbrovsky
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Gretzky, Orr, Howe i agree with but I rank Messier and Chelios above Mario. Maybe Lidstrom 5th and Mario 6th
Not to take anything away from Chelios who was a fantastic defenseman, but this is probably the first and last time I'm going to see him ranked above Mario.

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02-23-2013, 06:02 AM
  #28
Sotty
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Jagr has to be considered, but he is not canadian or american so it is not even worth mentioning him.

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02-23-2013, 06:21 AM
  #29
Metalcommand
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Jaromir Jagr.

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:23 AM
  #30
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by fashi13 View Post
No way, as a lifelong Caps fan who absolutely hated/hates the penguins, Mario is the most talented/dominate hockey player ever. He should never be lower than 2.
Mario has case to being anywhere 1-4. But he definitely has the strongest arguments going on for him being the 4th.

To the OP, i think Bobby Hull was the 5th best. Best goal-scorer of all-time.

But there is a clear gap between the "big 4" and rest of the top-10.

Messier, Yzerman, Brodeur etc. don't belong there.

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02-23-2013, 06:26 AM
  #31
Philly85
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There is no such thing. All that matters is one two three.

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02-23-2013, 06:26 AM
  #32
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Old
02-23-2013, 06:29 AM
  #33
revolverjgw
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I don't know. Good arguments can be made for Hull, Richard, Beliveau, Hasek, Shore, Jagr, Harvey... and though this is less popular, I think Lidstrom and Bourque are right up there.

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02-23-2013, 06:31 AM
  #34
The Folignorant One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Gretzky, Orr, Howe i agree with but I rank Messier and Chelios above Mario. Maybe Lidstrom 5th and Mario 6th
Please tell me you forgot to put a ? Mario is a lock for 2nd or 3rd best of all time..

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02-23-2013, 06:35 AM
  #35
Mister Hockey
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It's close, but my pick would be Bobby Hull. Remember, unlike some of the 12 year olds that post here, I'm old enough where I saw all these guys play live.


Last edited by Chalupa Batman: 02-23-2013 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Flaming
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Old
02-23-2013, 06:54 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Gretzky, Orr, Howe i agree with but I rank Messier and Chelios above Mario. Maybe Lidstrom 5th and Mario 6th

what's your reasoning for this ?

also if you were to put a D ahead of Mario wouldn't it be Harvey or Shore ?

to answer the op's question i would give the fifth spot to Hull with Richard in sixth and Beliveau seventh and Harvey, Esposito and Messier to round up the top ten

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02-23-2013, 06:54 AM
  #37
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by Rukan View Post
Please tell me you forgot to put a ? Mario is a lock for 2nd or 3rd best of all time..
IF he would be a lock it would be 4th.

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:59 AM
  #38
VeddarRants
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Orr
Gretzky
Mario
Howe
Hull

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Old
02-23-2013, 07:00 AM
  #39
Acallabeth
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+1 for Jagr. Though I can't comment on old guys.

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Old
02-23-2013, 07:03 AM
  #40
Behn Wilson
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My vote would be Bobby Hull.

Havent seen Ray Bourque mentioned unless I missed it, he should be in the conversation at least.

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02-23-2013, 07:06 AM
  #41
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Probably a player that none of us have ever seen actually play the game, yet we feel confident that we can effectively slot him at #5.

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02-23-2013, 07:28 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Gretzky, Orr, Howe i agree with but I rank Messier and Chelios above Mario. Maybe Lidstrom 5th and Mario 6th
Not sure if serious. Mario >> Messier.

Howe was rated highly partially because he played until he was 50. He never played to the level of Gretzky, Orr, or Mario in a single season.

Chelios is not close to any of these players. Above Mario? I'm speechless. He was a slow, plodding defenceman that played a mean game in the corners and in front. He was a valuable member of many teams but never should he even be mentioned with guys like Mario, Orr and Wayne.

Sadly, Richard and others that are older will never get the recognition from this young crowd. I doubt there's more than a handful of posters that ever saw them play. I'm in that group and can't comment on where he would fit. Pretty sure it's way above Chris Chelios.

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Old
02-23-2013, 07:30 AM
  #43
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Selanne

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Old
02-23-2013, 07:45 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Hockey View Post
Anyone that would rank Mario 6th, doesn't have clue about hockey.

It takes a lot to get me to post, but this was one of the most absurd posts ever.

It's close, but my pick would be Bobby Hull. Remember, unlike some of the 12 year olds that post here, I'm old enough where I saw all these guys play live.
We must be peers in age because I am old enough to have actually seen both Howe, Hull and Orr play, albeit on TV. I did not see Rocket Richard play.

It is easy to equate lofty numbers with how good a player is, but it doesn't take into consideration the era of hockey. There is a reason why the Canadian won a lot of Cups, they got the best Quebec players back in early days of hockey. Go look at the rosters, and compare them with the rest of the teams at the time. Beyond his skill level, there is a reason why Gretzky put-up the numbers, he played in the absolute weakest era of hockey (expansion, very few non-Canadian players at the time). All one has to do is go back and look at some of the statistics, the number of 100 point or 50 goal seasons, each year. Edmonton alone would have a handful of 100 point scorers. A good example of "numbers" is Phil Houseley. Big, but it hasn't gotten him to the HHOF yet.

I have no problem with Gordie, Mario and Wayne being considered the top-three forwards. BTW, IMO, Mario a better player than Gretzky. Orr transformed on the back-end, and is the only defenseman I have seen, who could actually take-over a game. He is without a doubt the greatest defenseman, and I have been watching hockey since the early 60's. If you are going to have a top-five, may as well have another defenseman, and that would be Lidstrom. If Orr is #1, Lidstrom truly is #1A.

Hull was a good player, and a transformational one for the game of hockey. Blazing speed, plus he was likely the first one to effectively employ a curved stick. He could really bring-it. His brother Dennis had some of the same qualities, just not the the same level. I wouldn't put Bobby in the top-five, but do consider him one of the elite NHLers of all-time.

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Old
02-23-2013, 07:57 AM
  #45
nik jr
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Not sure if serious. Mario >> Messier.

Howe was rated highly partially because he played until he was 50. He never played to the level of Gretzky, Orr, or Mario in a single season.

Chelios is not close to any of these players. Above Mario? I'm speechless. He was a slow, plodding defenceman that played a mean game in the corners and in front. He was a valuable member of many teams but never should he even be mentioned with guys like Mario, Orr and Wayne.

Sadly, Richard and others that are older will never get the recognition from this young crowd. I doubt there's more than a handful of posters that ever saw them play. I'm in that group and can't comment on where he would fit. Pretty sure it's way above Chris Chelios.
i think that is right, but howe had a very high peak and was a very dominant player in '50s. some prominent commenters were saying howe was the best player ever when he was in his early 20s.

margin of victory of howe's art rosses:

'51: 30% more points than 2nd place maurice richard
'52: 25% more points than 2nd place ted lindsay (his linemate)
'53: 34% more points than 2nd place ted lindsay (his linemate)
'54: 21% more points than 2nd place maurice richard

'57: 5% more points than 2nd place ted lindsay (his linemate)
'63: 6% more points than 2nd place andy bathgate

howe's offense relative to the rest of the league dropped when he had less support on the blueline (decline and then loss of red kelly) and at LW (loss of ted lindsay), but he was in the top 5 in scoring for 20 consecutive seasons, and was still 3rd in scoring when he was 40 years old.

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:09 AM
  #46
jpchabby
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Richard all the way... He's a legend.

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:12 AM
  #47
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I like to look at how much did you dominate the players you played againt. For me 5 and 6 are easy, The Rocket and Hasek. Richard was scoring 50 when everyone else was scoring 20 and no goalie ever intimidated players like Hasek did. It got to the point where players looked defeated against him and would only shot if there was a screen or a potential tip in. For the record I've never understood the hype about Lidstrom. Yes he was the best overall defenceman of the last decade but his offensive numbers weren't good enough to put him anywhere near the top 10 players ever.

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:17 AM
  #48
King Woodballs
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Richard and hull for 5 and 6

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:18 AM
  #49
triggrman
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5th is easy.

Whos is 105th best?

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:19 AM
  #50
fly4apuckguy
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Tough pick, I'd say it is a four-way tie between the Rocket, Doug Harvey, Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau. Can't go wrong with any of them, but if I have to pick one, I'll go with the Rocket.

Those picking Chelios, Selanne, Lidstrom and Jagr....just stop. You are essentially picking Matt Hasselbeck or Joe Flacco over John Elway just because they are more recent.

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