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Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

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Old
02-23-2013, 09:10 AM
  #51
Shaman464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Tough pick, I'd say it is a four-way tie between the Rocket, Doug Harvey, Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau. Can't go wrong with any of them, but if I have to pick one, I'll go with the Rocket.

Those picking Chelios, Selanne, Lidstrom and Jagr....just stop. You are essentially picking Matt Hasselbeck or Joe Flacco over John Elway just because they are more recent.
Except Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman ever to play. So its like you picking Dolph Schayes in the NBA because he was great in the 50s over Kobe because Kobe is too recent.

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02-23-2013, 09:12 AM
  #52
fly4apuckguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
Except Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman ever to play. So its like you picking Dolph Schayes in the NBA because he was great in the 50s over Kobe because Kobe is too recent.
How is Lidstrom the second best defenseman ever to play? Under what criteria is that a fact?

Just wondering...

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02-23-2013, 09:18 AM
  #53
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1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Bobby Orr
3) Gordie Howe
4) Mario Lemieux
5) Bobby Hull


After that its fuzzy for me. I don't know who I have as better between Beliveau, Richard and Shore. Bourque, Morenz, Hasek, Jagr and Lidstrom are right there for me afterwards.

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02-23-2013, 09:18 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by IEC View Post
Jagr has to be considered, but he is not canadian or american so it is not even worth mentioning him.
Not above Richard, Bobby Hull, Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey, Jean Beliveau or Mark Messier. Jagr is an all time great, but can't be compared to any legitimate top 10 player.

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02-23-2013, 09:20 AM
  #55
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1 Lemieux
2 Gretzky
3 Orr
4 Richard
5 Malkin

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02-23-2013, 09:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
Except Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman ever to play. So its like you picking Dolph Schayes in the NBA because he was great in the 50s over Kobe because Kobe is too recent.
Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey, and Ray Bourque all say hi. Denis Potvin, and Larry Robinson are debatable as well.

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02-23-2013, 09:21 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
Except Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman ever to play. So its like you picking Dolph Schayes in the NBA because he was great in the 50s over Kobe because Kobe is too recent.
I think most of us have Lidstrom in the top five, but I think its jumping the gun having him ahead of Harvey, Shore and Bourque.

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02-23-2013, 09:22 AM
  #58
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Patrick Roy.

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02-23-2013, 09:27 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
Beyond his skill level, there is a reason why Gretzky put-up the numbers, he played in the absolute weakest era of hockey (expansion, very few non-Canadian players at the time). All one has to do is go back and look at some of the statistics, the number of 100 point or 50 goal seasons, each year.
People often say this but they forget to point out that nobody else was putting up 200 point seasons. Yes, it was a weak era, and yes, it was a goal-scoring bonanza, and yes, a lot of mediocre players put up lofty numbers, but Gretzky was still scoring 60% more than the second best player in the league.

There has yet to be seen that level of statistical dominance from anybody in ANY sport.

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02-23-2013, 09:34 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
How is Lidstrom the second best defenseman ever to play? Under what criteria is that a fact?

Just wondering...
He is arguably. Although i think Bourque has him beat. But he is 3rd for me.

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02-23-2013, 09:42 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Bobby Hull. Counting his WHA career he scored more than 900 goals implying that he had a chance to be the first in scoring.

He can also be cosidered as best of all time.

PS Didn't see luch of Orr tapes compared to, say, Hull but something tells me he is a bit overhyped. It is American culture to love one single moment not the whole career.
No Bobby Orr not only changed the defenseman role, but if you watch old film on him it's like wow. His speed, shot and defensive ability was unreal. The guy was like a 4th winger on the ice while being a shut down blue liner

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02-23-2013, 09:44 AM
  #62
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What made Hull so good? Not questioning you guys, just wondering because he is a bit out of my era

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02-23-2013, 09:45 AM
  #63
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But who's the 17th best in history? Or 47th? Or 93rd? Who's the 6th best backup goalie under age 33? Who's the best playing on Sunday LW without any tattoos?

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02-23-2013, 09:46 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Gretzky, Orr, Howe i agree with but I rank Messier and Chelios above Mario. Maybe Lidstrom 5th and Mario 6th
Messier was better than Mario... right. You're obviously 15 years old max.

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02-23-2013, 09:47 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I think most of us have Lidstrom in the top five, but I think its jumping the gun having him ahead of Harvey, Shore and Bourque.
Let's not forget Paul Coffey.

The guy scored 48 goals and 138 points one year as a defenseman. Most goals ever and second in popints to Orr's 139. Over 1500 career points.

That is crazy. If he didn't have to compete with Ray Bourque every year for the Norris, he would have had more than three of them. Also with the Stanley Cups, his heroic efforts at the Canada Cups, etc. Probably the best pure skater ever (maybe Bob Bourne or Mike Gartner would rank higher).

People bag on his defense, but he wasn't that bad. He played a ton of pp minutes, so that affected his +/-.

If he had retired earlier instead of hanging on for a few terrible years, his legacy would have been greater than what he left it, in my opinion. In my opinion, he rounds out the top five just ahead of Lidstrom.

Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Coffey, Lidstrom, Potvin, Robinson, Chelios...

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02-23-2013, 09:50 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaffy View Post
1 Lemieux
2 Gretzky
3 Orr
4 Richard
5 Malkin
I'm guessing that's tongue in cheek, pretty good.

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02-23-2013, 10:01 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Not above Richard, Bobby Hull, Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey, Jean Beliveau or Mark Messier. Jagr is an all time great, but can't be compared to any legitimate top 10 player.
Why not? He could be second in all-time scoring if he hadn't gone to Russia, and he has 5 Art Ross trophies.

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02-23-2013, 10:05 AM
  #68
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Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Bobby Hull
Richard
Beliveau
Messier
Hasek
Lafleur

HM:
Harvey
Jagr
Esposito

Not enough familiarity with

Shore
Morenz

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02-23-2013, 10:07 AM
  #69
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Messier IMO.

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02-23-2013, 10:10 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Gretzky, Orr, Howe i agree with but I rank Messier and Chelios above Mario. Maybe Lidstrom 5th and Mario 6th
LOLOLOLOOL Chelios above Mario? Can I have some of what you are smoking?

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02-23-2013, 10:18 AM
  #71
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Something to consider for the younger ones on here. In the absolute weakest era ever in the NHL, the one in which the Great Gretzky racked-up the points, Oilers goalie Grant Fuhr once had 14 assists in one season. That should tell you something.

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02-23-2013, 10:19 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
Beyond his skill level, there is a reason why Gretzky put-up the numbers, he played in the absolute weakest era of hockey (expansion, very few non-Canadian players at the time).
Actually, the '70's could be argued as being much more watered down, combining a large amount of expansion with a lack of non-Canadian players plus a rival league. The 80's had much more American and European (but not Russian) participation... and outside of bringing the 4 WHA teams in 1980 (thus shutting down the rival league), there was no expansion during the 1980's.

Anyway, #5 would have to be either Hull, Hasek or Beliveau

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02-23-2013, 10:22 AM
  #73
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Maurice Richard

- First player to score 50 goals in a season, and score 50 in 50 games

- Led league in goal scoring 5 times

1944-45: 50 goals, 2nd place had 32
1946-47: 45 goals, 2nd place had 30
1949-50: 43 goals, 2nd place had 35
1953-53: 37 goals, 2nd place had 33
1954-55: 38 goals (Bernie Geoffrion also had 38), 2nd place had 37

- 1 Hart Trophy

- Never won an Art Ross

- Finished in the top ten in league scoring 11 times, finished 2nd 5 times

- Won 8 Stanley Cups

- Led the playoffs in goals 5 times and led in points twice

Career Numbers: 978 GP, 544 goals, 421 assists, 965 points (13th all time in goals per game)

Playoffs: 133 GP, 82 goals, 44 assists, 126 points

Bobby Hull

- First player to score more than 50 goals in a season

- Led league in goal scoring 7 times

1959-60: 39 goals (Bronco Horvath also had 39), 2nd place had 34
1961-62: 50 goals, 2nd place had 33
1963-64: 43 goals, 2nd place had 39
1965-66: 54 goals, 2nd place had 32
1966-67: 52 goals, 2nd place had 35
1967-68: 44 goals, 2nd place had 40
1968-69: 58 goals, 2nd place had 49

- 2 Hart Trophies

- 3 Art Ross Trophies

- Finished in the top ten in scoring 11 times, finished 2nd 3 times

- Won 1 Stanley Cup

- Led the playoffs in goals 3 times and points once

Career Numbers: 1063 GP, 610 goals, 560 assists, 1170 points (9th all time in goals per game)

Playoffs: 119 GP, 62 goals, 67 assists, 129 points

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Old
02-23-2013, 10:26 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe View Post
Actually, the '70's could be argued as being much more watered down, combining a large amount of expansion with a lack of non-Canadian players plus a rival league. The 80's had much more American and European (but not Russian) participation... and outside of bringing the 4 WHA teams in 1980 (thus shutting down the rival league), there was no expansion during the 1980's.

Anyway, #5 would have to be either Hull, Hasek or Beliveau
Gretzky played in the late 70's, in the WHA during the 78/79 season. Combining the WHA and the NHL at the time was a form of expansion.

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Old
02-23-2013, 10:27 AM
  #75
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Messier


And Bourque is ahead of Lidstrom for those above ^

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