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02-22-2013, 10:16 PM
  #676
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I don't really see how Eller is overrated. If there was people saying they think he's the 1st line center of the future then yes, that would be overrating him. I guess saying he's better than Desharnais is overrating him, but I don't really see anyone saying that, a few people are saying they'd rather keep him if you had to keep one, but that's not quite the same thing. If anyone is saying Eller is all that elite, instead of calling us fanboys, please find the quote.

It's hard to call a player overrated when there's such extreme opinions. Most of us "fanboys" think at best Eller could figure it all out and be a Plekanec like player. Keyword being at best, personally I wouldn't bet on him being as good offensively as Plek, since Plekanec is not a player you can easily project, but I'd give him a year or so more in different roles before I'd dismiss it completely.

Then you have people saying he's a 3rd liner at best, or even a 4th liner/the second coming of Jan Bulis. This I disagree with because he's already a solid 3rd liner. Even if he doesn't put together his offense he's not that far off a Dave Bolland type two way player. 30 points in a defensive role is actually a good thing. I wouldn't say that's his ceiling, even now, but I'd be fine with that for him, since I don't want Plekanec traded anyway.

And saying he was used as a grinder last year isn't an "excuse". Actually, at least under Martin, I have no problem with how Eller was used last year. I do have a problem with expectations of 50+ points in that role, because that's not fair.
Fair response.

So what do you do with Gallagher when he gets back?

Who has a higher ceiling? Galchenyuk, Gallagher or Eller?

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02-22-2013, 10:22 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I don't really see how Eller is overrated. If there was people saying they think he's the 1st line center of the future then yes, that would be overrating him. I guess saying he's better than Desharnais is overrating him, but I don't really see anyone saying that, a few people are saying they'd rather keep him if you had to keep one, but that's not quite the same thing. If anyone is saying Eller is all that elite, instead of calling us fanboys, please find the quote.

It's hard to call a player overrated when there's such extreme opinions. Most of us "fanboys" think at best Eller could figure it all out and be a Plekanec like player. Keyword being at best, personally I wouldn't bet on him being as good offensively as Plek, since Plekanec is not a player you can easily project, but I'd give him a year or so more in different roles before I'd dismiss it completely.

Then you have people saying he's a 3rd liner at best, or even a 4th liner/the second coming of Jan Bulis. This I disagree with because he's already a solid 3rd liner. Even if he doesn't put together his offense he's not that far off a Dave Bolland type two way player. 30 points in a defensive role is actually a good thing. I wouldn't say that's his ceiling, even now, but I'd be fine with that for him, since I don't want Plekanec traded anyway.

And saying he was used as a grinder last year isn't an "excuse". Actually, at least under Martin, I have no problem with how Eller was used last year. I do have a problem with expectations of 50+ points in that role, because that's not fair.
Well said....

Ice time is everything in hockey to evaluate the production of a player.

Can't expect Eller who played 14minutes with 3m30 in PK to produce as much as Plek or DD who played 18-20minutes minutes with 3m30 in PP.

If those playing the top minutes put up 60 points.....those playing bottom minutes are incredible player if they hit 40 points

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02-22-2013, 10:29 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Fair response.

So what do you do with Gallagher when he gets back?

Who has a higher ceiling? Galchenyuk, Gallagher or Eller?
Galchenyuk is in another category. But he's not better than Eller right now. Certainly he's already showing signs that he's something special and Eller could only dream of some of the skill Gally has shown, but if anything he's been far more inconsistent than Eller so far this year, as to be expected

I kind of liked the lines posted in another thread. I know you are a big fan of Prust on the 3rd line and I think he's good at making the most of it, but depending on the opposition, we could use different skills on the 3rd line. You don't need protection against the Islanders or the Capitals. Yes Prust is playing very well in his role, but Galchenyuk's corsi actually goes up when he's not playing with Prust. I don't want to take this debate much further but let's just say different opponents take different formations.

And quite frankly I'd take all three of the players before Gionta right now.

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02-22-2013, 10:29 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Fair response.

So what do you do with Gallagher when he gets back?

Who has a higher ceiling? Galchenyuk, Gallagher or Eller?
On the one hand you care about ceiling when it means giving less ice time to Eller.

On the other hand, you bring up winning "this year" if it means giving more ice time to DD.

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02-22-2013, 10:41 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Well said....

Ice time is everything in hockey to evaluate the production of a player.

Can't expect Eller who played 14minutes with 3m30 in PK to produce as much as Plek or DD who played 18-20minutes minutes with 3m30 in PP.

If those playing the top minutes put up 60 points.....those playing bottom minutes are incredible player if they hit 40 points
No, it usually just means they're better-suited playing bottom minutes. Call it depth chart, roster eval/role, pecking order, doghouse, favorites/darlings or whatever you want, the fact remains:

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Coaching staff will play the bodies they feel are needed to win by all means necessary.

That is, unless they lucked into that job and know nothing about hockey compared to the average fan(atic) that posts here (which I am/ain't)

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02-22-2013, 10:44 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
On the one hand you care about ceiling when it means giving less ice time to Eller.

On the other hand, you bring up winning "this year" if it means giving more ice time to DD.
All I am saying is that Galchenyuk is better with the puck and is more creative right now. So is DD.

Eller is better defensively than either of those two players.

We have to play in the present as well as look to the future. One without the other is Edmonton. And this team needs to score goals.

This year, Pleks, DD, Galchenyuk, Eller, in that order.

If Eller becomes more comfortable with the puck and becomes a better playmaker.......next year.......he can fight for a move up in lines as I see Galchenyuk centering one of our top two lines.

It all rests on Eller's shoulders to make the improvements to take the next step.

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02-22-2013, 10:55 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Well said....

Ice time is everything in hockey to evaluate the production of a player.

Can't expect Eller who played 14minutes with 3m30 in PK to produce as much as Plek or DD who played 18-20minutes minutes with 3m30 in PP.

If those playing the top minutes put up 60 points.....those playing bottom minutes are incredible player if they hit 40 points
Weak argument.

Put the 60 points player against the lesser competition that face the 40 points players, and you have a 80 points player.

Put those40 points players again the top shutdown line that face the 60 points players and see what happen..

What is wrong with the utilisation of Eller? He is getting good wings, have a low-pressure role right now, doing is job well, but it's not like he is playing in a way that SCREAM top 6 players.

DD-Pac are a solid duo, there is no debate here, and there is no reason right now to break it. The Habs are not at the bottom of the East right now, 100% minded on the developpement of their rookie at the cost of everything. They play to win, and switching Eller with DD just to see what Eller might be able to do is just plain stupid. We are not playing pre-season game anymore.

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02-22-2013, 11:52 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
All I am saying is that Galchenyuk is better with the puck and is more creative right now. So is DD.

Eller is better defensively than either of those two players.

We have to play in the present as well as look to the future. One without the other is Edmonton. And this team needs to score goals.

This year, Pleks, DD, Galchenyuk, Eller, in that order.

If Eller becomes more comfortable with the puck and becomes a better playmaker.......next year.......he can fight for a move up in lines as I see Galchenyuk centering one of our top two lines.

It all rests on Eller's shoulders to make the improvements to take the next step.
But that is just bad management.
How does a guy like Eller play the role of a 4th line center? It's crazy. The fourth line center is a guy like Noke, Prust, or White, not Lars Eller.
This kid is at the bare minimum a 3rd liner. Maybe that's all he'll become, but he has no business being on the 4th line. Especially not when the 3rd line consists of two rookies (one of which being 18) and a grinder.

One of the four centers you mentioned should have already been merged as a winger since the beginning of the season (and kept there). I don't care if it would have been DD, Eller or Gal, one of them will need to be moved to the wing.

You can't expect Eller to start producing at a career high pace playing with White, Moen or Armstrong all game. It just won't happen. So no, it's not all on his shoulders.
Give him talented wingers, give him PP time, then you can say that it's on him.

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02-23-2013, 12:20 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by Adriatic View Post
Because on NHL 3rd lines you have to grind, hit, forecheck and go play in corners. He's not that type of player. Find me a player like him that is playing anywhere on a 3rd or 4th line in the nhl.
Stephen Gionta & Andrei Loktionov with the Devils
Jordan Schroeder with the Canucks
Mark Olver with the Avalanche
Mikael Granlund with the Wild


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02-23-2013, 12:47 AM
  #685
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Because on NHL 3rd lines you have to grind, hit, forecheck and go play in corners. He's not that type of player. Find me a player like him that is playing anywhere on a 3rd or 4th line in the nhl.
I guess it's a good thing Eller hits (same hits/game as Moen), goes into corners, grinds it out on the boards during forechecks, and drives net then...

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02-23-2013, 07:53 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Maelpj View Post
Weak argument.

Put the 60 points player against the lesser competition that face the 40 points players, and you have a 80 points player.

Put those40 points players again the top shutdown line that face the 60 points players and see what happen..

What is wrong with the utilisation of Eller? He is getting good wings, have a low-pressure role right now, doing is job well, but it's not like he is playing in a way that SCREAM top 6 players.

DD-Pac are a solid duo, there is no debate here, and there is no reason right now to break it. The Habs are not at the bottom of the East right now, 100% minded on the developpement of their rookie at the cost of everything. They play to win, and switching Eller with DD just to see what Eller might be able to do is just plain stupid. We are not playing pre-season game anymore.
Okay, weak arguments.

So you're saying that a guy who plays 10 minutes (14 minutes minus 4 in PK) a night at even strenght will do double the points of a guy who plays 15 minutes at even strenght PLUS a 3-4 minutes at 5 on 4???

Funny....DD was about to go for a 40 points/season when on the bottom 6 WITH Powerplay not even with Penalty Kill duties as Eller.

I'm not suggesting they should be switch, but expectation should not be the same.

If Eller put up a 24 points season (48 matchs) the way he is being used....it would a great season. If DD put up the same 24 points (48 matchs),,,not a good production!

I reapeat myself....Eller got as many points as DD at 5 on 5 with 2 games less than DD. All other points made by DD are on the PP, which Eller doesn't get. So Tecdhnically speaking, Eller has a better production than DD at 5 on 5 (with less games, less ice-time).

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02-23-2013, 09:07 AM
  #687
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I like Galchenyuk and Eller together. It's not always pretty, but they've combined to score some goals. It sort of reminds me of Eller with A. Kostitsyn. Offence happens.

TSN informs me that the practice lines had Eller, Galchenyuk and Cole. That's with Prust tending to an injury, so who knows what game time will look like. But I find that line intriguing. Don't know about chemistry, as only games will tell, but it has a nice combination of speed, finesse, size and defensive awareness.

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02-23-2013, 10:10 AM
  #688
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Okay, weak arguments.

So you're saying that a guy who plays 10 minutes (14 minutes minus 4 in PK) a night at even strenght will do double the points of a guy who plays 15 minutes at even strenght PLUS a 3-4 minutes at 5 on 4???

Funny....DD was about to go for a 40 points/season when on the bottom 6 WITH Powerplay not even with Penalty Kill duties as Eller.

I'm not suggesting they should be switch, but expectation should not be the same.

If Eller put up a 24 points season (48 matchs) the way he is being used....it would a great season. If DD put up the same 24 points (48 matchs),,,not a good production!

I reapeat myself....Eller got as many points as DD at 5 on 5 with 2 games less than DD. All other points made by DD are on the PP, which Eller doesn't get. So Tecdhnically speaking, Eller has a better production than DD at 5 on 5 (with less games, less ice-time).
If you can't understand how a third line player play against less competition than a first line player, discussing any further is pretty pointless.

Here is what Max had to say about DD:

“He basically taught me how to score goals by setting me up. I can admit I wasn’t a goal-scorer until probably my third year pro,” he said.

Desharnais, who will be a restricted free agent at the end of the season, topped the 60-point mark last year, yet he is often derided as too small and not dynamic enough to be a top-line centre.

Pacioretty thinks that’s nuts.

“When people doubt him, I’m like ‘bite your tongue, it’s coming’. He’s so good. Only true hockey people can understand just how good he is. I’ve never seen anyone who sees the ice the way he does,” Pacioretty added. “I want people to keep doubting him because that’s what keeps him going.”

There is a solid chemistry between the two, but no for whatever reason, we HAVE to break this and put Eller with Pac. Cause he is something REALLY special right!

Oh and by the way, you are using stats at 5 vs 5 to prove that Eller is better than DD... What about watching the game?

Galchenyuk have the most point at 5v5. Means he is the the better foward of the team right?

Kaberle have more point 5v5 than Markov...

Emelin and Gorges, more point at 5v5 than Subban...

Bourque more point at 5v5 than Plekanec..

What does it mean? The CH doesn't have superstar, but they have a bunch of good player. If a duo produce really well, you keep it like that. The number of the lines is not important, and if Eller is a good player, he will produce with Galchenyuk and Cole/prust.

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02-23-2013, 10:16 AM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Maelpj View Post
If you can't understand how a third line player play against less competition than a first line player, discussing any further is pretty pointless.

Here is what Max had to say about DD:

“He basically taught me how to score goals by setting me up. I can admit I wasn’t a goal-scorer until probably my third year pro,” he said.

Desharnais, who will be a restricted free agent at the end of the season, topped the 60-point mark last year, yet he is often derided as too small and not dynamic enough to be a top-line centre.

Pacioretty thinks that’s nuts.

“When people doubt him, I’m like ‘bite your tongue, it’s coming’. He’s so good. Only true hockey people can understand just how good he is. I’ve never seen anyone who sees the ice the way he does,” Pacioretty added. “I want people to keep doubting him because that’s what keeps him going.”

There is a solid chemistry between the two, but no for whatever reason, we HAVE to break this and put Eller with Pac. Cause he is something REALLY special right!

Oh and by the way, you are using stats at 5 vs 5 to prove that Eller is better than DD... What about watching the game?

Galchenyuk have the most point at 5v5. Means he is the the better foward of the team right?

Kaberle have more point 5v5 than Markov...

Emelin and Gorges, more point at 5v5 than Subban...

Bourque more point at 5v5 than Plekanec..

What does it mean? The CH doesn't have superstar, but they have a bunch of good player. If a duo produce really well, you keep it like that. The number of the lines is not important, and if Eller is a good player, he will produce with Galchenyuk and Cole/prust.
It's clear as day that Desharnais' line has faced easier opposition than Plekanec's or Eller's. Not to mention also benefitting from a strong percentage of offensive zone starts.

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02-23-2013, 10:32 AM
  #690
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Be careful, facing tougher offensive opponents ( Eller and Plek ) isn't the same as facing tougher defensive opponents (DD) .


One should not justify bashing the other. Eller is a great project, and his career isn't done ! nor is his development stalled for life. He's learning everything he has to learn now. His chance will come if he deserves it. Heck, DD is the proof of that. If it's not with the CH, it's going to be elsewhere.

As for me, I'm just happy that we have the choice.

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02-23-2013, 10:48 AM
  #691
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It's clear as day that Desharnais' line has faced easier opposition than Plekanec's or Eller's. Not to mention also benefitting from a strong percentage of offensive zone starts.
The offensive zone starts, definitely - DD 54.5% vs LE 41.3%... but the quality of competition, going over the matchups from the last few games, I think it's close. To my eye, Plekanec has gotten the toughest matchups, and then DD and Eller's are similar.

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02-23-2013, 11:11 AM
  #692
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If you can't understand how a third line player play against less competition than a first line player, discussing any further is pretty pointless.
Because the term "first" and "third" are used by fans in an arbitrary way to rank lines on offensive output? Last year the media kept calling the DD line the "first" line, but it was the Plekanec line that typically lined up agaisnt the opposition's best line, and Eller's line was often used against second lines. Last year's "third" line was used for defensive purposes, the year before that, Desharnais was used in a "third" line for scoring. If there's anything pointless, it's the "first" and "third" line titles.


This year Desharnais is getting more difficult quality of competition though; if anything his line is being used against second line competition to shelter Galchenyuk. He's still getting primarily offensive zone starts, but unlike last year, his quality of competition is not weaker than Eller's.

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02-23-2013, 11:25 AM
  #693
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This year Desharnais is getting more difficult quality of competition though; if anything his line is being used against second line competition to shelter Galchenyuk. He's still getting primarily offensive zone starts, but unlike last year, his quality of competition is not weaker than Eller's.
Although the somewhat small sample size so far, there is still a significant difference in Relative Corsi Quality of Competition. Desharnais is last among forwards with -0.090 while Plekanec stands in at 2nd with 1.721 (fyi, Bourque is 1st, Gionta is 3rd). Eller is in between them with 0.856. Meanwhile, Galchenyuk, with 0.407 ranks above Desharnais and behind Eller in terms of competition.

In terms of quality of competition amongst centers, it stands as Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, Desharnais.

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02-23-2013, 11:30 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
Although the somewhat small sample size so far, there is still a significant difference in Relative Corsi Quality of Competition. Desharnais is last among forwards with -0.090 while Plekanec stands in at 2nd with 1.721 (fyi, Bourque is 1st, Gionta is 3rd). Eller is in between them with 0.856. Meanwhile, Galchenyuk, with 0.407 ranks above Desharnais and behind Eller in terms of competition.

In terms of quality of competition amongst centers, it stands as Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, Desharnais.
Interesting. It seemed to me that Desharnais was playing against better competition to start the season, but it doesn't surprise me that it changed after his start. Explains a lot, and credit to Therrien for adjusting.

This also shows why calling a line "first", "second" and "third" based entirely on their point production is deceptive. In the modern NHL you need multiple lines that do a little bit of everything.

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02-23-2013, 11:30 AM
  #695
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
Although the somewhat small sample size so far, there is still a significant difference in Relative Corsi Quality of Competition. Desharnais is last among forwards with -0.090 while Plekanec stands in at 2nd with 1.721 (fyi, Bourque is 1st, Gionta is 3rd). Eller is in between them with 0.856. Meanwhile, Galchenyuk, with 0.407 ranks above Desharnais and behind Eller in terms of competition.

In terms of quality of competition amongst centers, it stands as Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, Desharnais.
I love Behind The Net, but I don't put as much stock in QOC and QOT as the other stats. The formula isn't as cut and dry as zone starts, Corsi or pts/60. Especially early in a season, I find some of the QOC and QOT numbers wonky. At this point, I find going through matchups game by game to be the most reliable method of determining QOC.

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02-23-2013, 12:02 PM
  #696
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But that is just bad management.
How does a guy like Eller play the role of a 4th line center? It's crazy. The fourth line center is a guy like Noke, Prust, or White, not Lars Eller.
This kid is at the bare minimum a 3rd liner. Maybe that's all he'll become, but he has no business being on the 4th line. Especially not when the 3rd line consists of two rookies (one of which being 18) and a grinder.

One of the four centers you mentioned should have already been merged as a winger since the beginning of the season (and kept there). I don't care if it would have been DD, Eller or Gal, one of them will need to be moved to the wing.

You can't expect Eller to start producing at a career high pace playing with White, Moen or Armstrong all game. It just won't happen. So no, it's not all on his shoulders.
Give him talented wingers, give him PP time, then you can say that it's on him.
Its bad management in your opinion.

Do you think that Galchenyuk and Gallagher would have the same progression this season if they had Eller as their Center?

And that gets to the crux of this entire discussion.

Galchenyuk and Gallagher >>> Eller.

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02-23-2013, 12:05 PM
  #697
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Although the somewhat small sample size so far, there is still a significant difference in Relative Corsi Quality of Competition. Desharnais is last among forwards with -0.090 while Plekanec stands in at 2nd with 1.721 (fyi, Bourque is 1st, Gionta is 3rd). Eller is in between them with 0.856. Meanwhile, Galchenyuk, with 0.407 ranks above Desharnais and behind Eller in terms of competition.

In terms of quality of competition amongst centers, it stands as Plekanec, Eller, Galchenyuk, Desharnais.
Do the Corsi numbers take into account poor passes, rushed passes and missed opportunites?

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02-23-2013, 12:15 PM
  #698
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Do the Corsi numbers take into account poor passes, rushed passes and missed opportunites?
A quick research would open your eyes on the useless of corsi.

Here is the top 5 of the player with best corsi:

ANDREI LOKTIONOV
ANDY MIELE
BRANDON MASHINTER
DAVID BOOTH
MAX PACIORETTY

beside pac, there is no player on this top 5 who is a starter for his team.


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02-23-2013, 12:19 PM
  #699
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You want an even more absurd observation?

The guy with the worst corsi on the Habs is..... Eller. The irony.

After Pac, the Habs players with the better corsi are in this order:

Cole
Kaberle
DESHARNAIS
Pk Subban
Gallagher
Bouillon
Emelin
Plekanec
White

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02-23-2013, 12:20 PM
  #700
Roulin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelpj View Post
A quick research would open your eyes on the useless of corsi.

He is the top 5 of the player with best corsi:

ANDREI LOKTIONOV
ANDY MIELE
BRANDON MASHINTER
DAVID BOOTH
MAX PACIORETTY

beside pac, there is no player on this top 5 who is a starter for his team.
Of the actual top 5, none have played more than 2 games. The only lesson there is one anyone looking at stats should already have learned: beware of small sample sizes.

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