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Butch Goring: if Elias gets in HHOF, so should he.

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Old
02-22-2013, 03:28 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I dont get why he is comparing himself to Elias? Is it just something he said to get some Devils - Islanders rivalry going?

They are similar players, in style and in overall points.

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02-22-2013, 03:29 PM
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I dont get why he is comparing himself to Elias? Is it just something he said to get some Devils - Islanders rivalry going?
The original article involved the Devils beat writer for the Newark Star Ledger going around asking prominent hockey people if Elias deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Goring apparently thinks that Goring should be in the Hall and seems to have used the opportunity to complain that he isn't.

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02-22-2013, 03:34 PM
  #28
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He probably has a better case than Duff or Gillies, but not many others. Elias has a better case than him.

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02-22-2013, 03:37 PM
  #29
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The original article involved the Devils beat writer for the Newark Star Ledger going around asking prominent hockey people if Elias deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Goring apparently thinks that Goring should be in the Hall and seems to have used the opportunity to complain that he isn't.
Well, it must be some kind of Devils vs Islanders PR thing and probably a bit of bitterness.

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02-22-2013, 05:18 PM
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Backtracking a bit, if they were going to induct a 5th Islander I think it should have been either one of Goring or Tonelli over Gillies. A lot of us think this way too, not saying they should be in there but if you had to pick just one of the three, I don't think anyone picks Gillies first. So just to remind people, Goring has been mentioned the odd time in HHOF discussions on this particular site, so he isn't crazy. He was a wonderful two-way player and tenacious on the ice and yet he only had 98 penalty minutes. He is exactly what I think of when I think of a Lady Byng winner. Tough, hard working but clean and fair.

Now, onto Elias. I wouldn't put him in there. I know there are a few Devils fans on here that can't understand why but I feel he lacked the amount of elite seasons to get considered. There will be enough players even from Elias' generation to get (or flirt with) 1000 points that will be left out. I am not saying Elias wasn't a good player for the Devils when they won their Cups. However, that team was a lot like the 2011 Bruins had the Bruins maintained a string of success. They were built from the net out. You have Thomas and Chara as the key players. Then you looked to the forwards. On the Devils you had Stevens and Brodeur and maybe even Niedermayer. Then you had the forwards and to be honest in 2000 and 2001 Sykora wasn't any worse than Elias so I don't think Elias stands out quite at the level that some might remember him. No one went into a series against the Devils thinking Elias would beat them. He was there and all, but Stevens was the key first and foremost. Then Brodeur.

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02-22-2013, 05:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Backtracking a bit, if they were going to induct a 5th Islander I think it should have been either one of Goring or Tonelli over Gillies. A lot of us think this way too, not saying they should be in there but if you had to pick just one of the three, I don't think anyone picks Gillies first. So just to remind people, Goring has been mentioned the odd time in HHOF discussions on this particular site, so he isn't crazy. He was a wonderful two-way player and tenacious on the ice and yet he only had 98 penalty minutes. He is exactly what I think of when I think of a Lady Byng winner. Tough, hard working but clean and fair.

Now, onto Elias. I wouldn't put him in there. I know there are a few Devils fans on here that can't understand why but I feel he lacked the amount of elite seasons to get considered. There will be enough players even from Elias' generation to get (or flirt with) 1000 points that will be left out. I am not saying Elias wasn't a good player for the Devils when they won their Cups. However, that team was a lot like the 2011 Bruins had the Bruins maintained a string of success. They were built from the net out. You have Thomas and Chara as the key players. Then you looked to the forwards. On the Devils you had Stevens and Brodeur and maybe even Niedermayer. Then you had the forwards and to be honest in 2000 and 2001 Sykora wasn't any worse than Elias so I don't think Elias stands out quite at the level that some might remember him. No one went into a series against the Devils thinking Elias would beat them. He was there and all, but Stevens was the key first and foremost. Then Brodeur.
I respectfully disagree. It's been mentioned earlier but the Devils have not been a team that scores a lot of goals historically and while Niedermayer and Stevens were great HOF defensemen, they didn't score a lot. For a lot of time Elias was the prime offensive threat so that had to be priority number 1.

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02-22-2013, 05:32 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Backtracking a bit, if they were going to induct a 5th Islander I think it should have been either one of Goring or Tonelli over Gillies. A lot of us think this way too, not saying they should be in there but if you had to pick just one of the three, I don't think anyone picks Gillies first. So just to remind people, Goring has been mentioned the odd time in HHOF discussions on this particular site, so he isn't crazy. He was a wonderful two-way player and tenacious on the ice and yet he only had 98 penalty minutes. He is exactly what I think of when I think of a Lady Byng winner. Tough, hard working but clean and fair.

Now, onto Elias. I wouldn't put him in there. I know there are a few Devils fans on here that can't understand why but I feel he lacked the amount of elite seasons to get considered. There will be enough players even from Elias' generation to get (or flirt with) 1000 points that will be left out. I am not saying Elias wasn't a good player for the Devils when they won their Cups. However, that team was a lot like the 2011 Bruins had the Bruins maintained a string of success. They were built from the net out. You have Thomas and Chara as the key players. Then you looked to the forwards. On the Devils you had Stevens and Brodeur and maybe even Niedermayer. Then you had the forwards and to be honest in 2000 and 2001 Sykora wasn't any worse than Elias so I don't think Elias stands out quite at the level that some might remember him. No one went into a series against the Devils thinking Elias would beat them. He was there and all, but Stevens was the key first and foremost. Then Brodeur.
This nonsense again?

1999-00 regular season: Elias: 72 points, Sykora: 68 points
2000 playoffs: Elias: 20 points, Sykora 17 points

2000-01 regular season: Elias: 96 points, Sykora 81 points
2001 playoffs: Elias 23 points, Sykora 22 points.

Elias outscored Sykora, while also acting as the primary puck carrier and primary defensive presence on their line. The A-line was often used head-to-head against the best lines of opponents (only the Gomez-Mogilny line was sheltered defensively), yet still had some of the best plus-minuses in the league. Elias's defensive game was the main reason why - Arnott was okay defensively and Sykora wasn't all that good.

And of course, Elias had some great seasons after the two were separated and Sykora didn't.

I guess the Flyers in 2000 made the mistake of not thinking Elias would beat them.


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Old
02-22-2013, 05:54 PM
  #33
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Superficially, sure Goring's offensive numbers are similar to Elias'.

In terms of +/-, which isn't exactly the be-all-end-all but is still of some importance...

Elias is +197 on his career. Goring is -20.

Broken down further. Overall with Los Angeles, Goring was -17. With the Islanders, going by full seasons only:
- +4 in 78 games in 1980-81. That was second-worst among regular forwards, ahead only of Steve Tambellini, who apparently was trying to tank his own career well ahead of an actual franchise. Five forwards were +25 or better.

- -3 in 1981-82. He was the only - player on the entire team, and among regular forwards outscored only Billy Carroll.

- +10 in 1982-83. This put him 5th among forwards.

- +9 in 1983-84. This was 6th among forwards.

All told, he was +16 on the Island. Combined 1980-81 to 1983-84, he was 18th among Islanders regulars, 19th if you include Bob Lorimer.

Not taking a stand here, just sayin'.

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02-22-2013, 08:37 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Apparently nobody told Goring that scoring a point-per-game in the 21st century is much more difficult than it was in the 1980s.

Goring finished top 20 in points twice - both times finishing 12th.
Elias? 3rd, 6th, 10th, 20th. And currently 8th this season.
I like Goring a lot and think he has a better case than some already in the HHOF but as you clearly point out here Elias is much better than Goring and while I hate this phrase, ANEIC

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02-22-2013, 09:18 PM
  #35
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All this arguing over a silly comparison made by Goring. While Goring I believe has a case for the HOF (as does Elias), he made the mistake of choosing the wrong player to compare himself to. The player, I believe, he best matches up to is Jacques Lemaire. Both have similar statistics in regular season and playoffs. Both were second line centers for almost their entire careers. The exception is that Lemaire became a first line center his last 2-3 years when Montreal traded Mahovlich. Prior to that Lemaire played behind Beliveau. Both played excellent defensive hockey while chipping in significantly offensively. Both played the game hard and within the rules. Another major difference is that Lemaire played on elite teams his whole career, while Goring played on poor teams for the first half of his career. Elias is more elite offensively than Goring based on the era he played in. His top 20 finishes prove that. If Goring chooses Lemaire to compare himself to, I think he has a much more solid case and the HOF may take him seriously.

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02-22-2013, 10:10 PM
  #36
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All this arguing over a silly comparison made by Goring. While Goring I believe has a case for the HOF (as does Elias), he made the mistake of choosing the wrong player to compare himself to. The player, I believe, he best matches up to is Jacques Lemaire. Both have similar statistics in regular season and playoffs. Both were second line centers for almost their entire careers. The exception is that Lemaire became a first line center his last 2-3 years when Montreal traded Mahovlich. Prior to that Lemaire played behind Beliveau. Both played excellent defensive hockey while chipping in significantly offensively. Both played the game hard and within the rules. Another major difference is that Lemaire played on elite teams his whole career, while Goring played on poor teams for the first half of his career. Elias is more elite offensively than Goring based on the era he played in. His top 20 finishes prove that. If Goring chooses Lemaire to compare himself to, I think he has a much more solid case and the HOF may take him seriously.
Lemaire did finish top 10 in points 3 times, and only 1 was with Lafleur:

1971-72 NHL 81 (10)
1972-73 NHL 95 (5)
1977-78 NHL 97 (4)

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02-22-2013, 10:33 PM
  #37
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I'm pretty sure you are agreeing with him, read his post again.
Sleep deprivation is bad for braining.

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goring was a really good player, but spent most of his prime as an extremely productive second line center behind an MVP/scoring champ-calibre #1 (dionne, then trots). on different team, i don't know that he's a hall of famer, but could he have been some other, less star-heavy team's brian propp or nifty middleton?

as a second line center, he finished 12th in points twice-- part of that was probably boosted by playing with dionne on the PP, and those were his best PP years, but he was also taking on heavy defensive assignments, PK time, and probably didn't get nearly the prime offensive icetime that dionne's line did.
And here's the really big question; how does Goring compare to Messier? Thinking about it critically. What if Gretzky's never traded, and Messier stays in Edmonton with him for the length of their careers. No 1990 or 1992 Harts for Messier.

Goring was basically a slightly less talented Messier who never had the opportunity to break out as a 1C.

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02-22-2013, 10:34 PM
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And here's the really big question; how does Goring compare to Messier? Thinking about it critically. What if Gretzky's never traded, and Messier stays in Edmonton with him for the length of their careers. No 1990 or 1992 Harts for Messier.

Goring was basically a slightly less talented Messier who never had the opportunity to break out as a 1C.
There were some people already calling Messier the "best all-round player in the world" at the time of the 1987 Canada Cup.

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02-22-2013, 10:41 PM
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I like Goring. He had a huge presence his Conn Smythe year. But I don't see him at Elias level over a career.

And don't compare him to Lemaire. Lemaire is closer to Trottier level than Goring Level.

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02-22-2013, 11:23 PM
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This nonsense again?

1999-00 regular season: Elias: 72 points, Sykora: 68 points
2000 playoffs: Elias: 20 points, Sykora 17 points

2000-01 regular season: Elias: 96 points, Sykora 81 points
2001 playoffs: Elias 23 points, Sykora 22 points.

Elias outscored Sykora, while also acting as the primary puck carrier and primary defensive presence on their line. The A-line was often used head-to-head against the best lines of opponents (only the Gomez-Mogilny line was sheltered defensively), yet still had some of the best plus-minuses in the league. Elias's defensive game was the main reason why - Arnott was okay defensively and Sykora wasn't all that good.

And of course, Elias had some great seasons after the two were separated and Sykora didn't.

I guess the Flyers in 2000 made the mistake of not thinking Elias would beat them.
It wasn't really ALL that different between the two. Either way, my point about Elias on those teams is that the impact the forwards made on New Jersey is unprecedented on any other team like them that had a string of success. It isn't that Elias didn't do his part but that the Devils weren't a team that relied on offense as much. How many Cup winning teams have their best forward as only the 3rd or 4th best piece?

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02-22-2013, 11:27 PM
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It wasn't really ALL that different between the two. Either way, my point about Elias on those teams is that the impact the forwards made on New Jersey is unprecedented on any other team like them that had a string of success. It isn't that Elias didn't do his part but that the Devils weren't a team that relied on offense as much. How many Cup winning teams have their best forward as only the 3rd or 4th best piece?
Probably the 60s Leafs dynasty; after that, I don't know, the 1986 Canadiens probably.

I just think that if Elias did what he did (best forward on the 2nd most successful team of the post-dynasty era) and did it for a Canadian or an Original 6 team, the media would be pumping him up as a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

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02-22-2013, 11:38 PM
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Lemaire did finish top 10 in points 3 times, and only 1 was with Lafleur:

1971-72 NHL 81 (10)
1972-73 NHL 95 (5)
1977-78 NHL 97 (4)
Lemaire definitely played with better players than Goring, especially during their prime years.

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02-22-2013, 11:57 PM
  #43
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Probably the 60s Leafs dynasty; after that, I don't know, the 1986 Canadiens probably.

I just think that if Elias did what he did (best forward on the 2nd most successful team of the post-dynasty era) and did it for a Canadian or an Original 6 team, the media would be pumping him up as a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
1986 Habs you have there, possibly. Roy was #1. Maybe Robinson is #2. Or Naslund. But this wasn't really a team that strung together great seasons. They were kind of a default team that won when the Oilers screwed up. They weren't a team with the string of success like the Devils. I'm not sure about the 1960s Leafs though. My top 4 on that dynasty is probably in no particular order Keon, Mahovlich, Horton, Bower. I don't think that both of Keon and Mahovlich are behind Horton and Bower.

Anyway, the issue I have with Elias isn't just this but in comparison to his peers he falls behind greatly in the PPG issue. Let's compare him to two other guys that get brought up a lot with him.

Career PPG:
Alfredsson - 0.95
Hossa - 0.92
Elias - 0.86
.............
...........
............
not too far behind
Hejduk - 0.80

Now, even in the dead puck era the best stars were averaging more or less a point a game. Modano, Sundin, etc. Alfredsson is the closest one here of the three and he has some warts. Elias was fine defensively but so are Alfie and Hossa who pride themselves in a great two-way game. No advantage there. Does his playoff resume make up for it that much?

Lecavalier has a career 0.85 PPG. Players like Gaborik (0.89) or Richards (0.91) are ahead of him in that category too. Datsyuk (0.98) and Zetterberg (0.94) are ahead of him. This is just one mere stat mind you, but it is an example of something that Elias falls behind in. In reality can we say that Elias has had a career better than Brad Richards? Both of their careers overlapped each others. I honestly can't say that Elias has had the better career. It's close and as it stands right now I don't like the idea of Richards in the HHOF.

So that's just an example out there of the players that are very similar to Elias career wise if not already ahead of him. Would he not open the door for others?

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02-23-2013, 01:38 AM
  #44
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LOL Butch, Elias has more points in fewer games, and league scoring over his career was only about 25% lower. It's even worse in the playoffs. Over a 21% larger sample, Elias averaged 16% more points per game. And Butch had the benefit of what I think was the highest scoring playoff team of all time.

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02-23-2013, 01:39 AM
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oh, and saying that Hejduk is "not too far behind" is really funny for someone who tends to poo on statistical arguments. Apparently context no longer matters!

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02-23-2013, 11:04 AM
  #46
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oh, and saying that Hejduk is "not too far behind" is really funny for someone who tends to poo on statistical arguments. Apparently context no longer matters!
I've said all along that stats are half the battle, if only half the battle. They do matter and in Elias' case I was simply showing that from a statistical point of view he shares company with several players who better him in this category that we never think are making the HHOF. Therefore he has to do something to make up for that right? You look at a guy like Brad Richards with a Cup, a Conn Smythe and so far a decent playoff portfolio with some decent runs. To compare Richards to Elias is fairly accurate from a career value standpoint and I can't imagine Richards ever getting into the HHOF.

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02-23-2013, 02:27 PM
  #47
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1986 Habs you have there, possibly. Roy was #1. Maybe Robinson is #2. Or Naslund. But this wasn't really a team that strung together great seasons. They were kind of a default team that won when the Oilers screwed up. They weren't a team with the string of success like the Devils. I'm not sure about the 1960s Leafs though. My top 4 on that dynasty is probably in no particular order Keon, Mahovlich, Horton, Bower. I don't think that both of Keon and Mahovlich are behind Horton and Bower.

Anyway, the issue I have with Elias isn't just this but in comparison to his peers he falls behind greatly in the PPG issue. Let's compare him to two other guys that get brought up a lot with him.

Career PPG:
Alfredsson - 0.95
Hossa - 0.92
Elias - 0.86
.............
...........
............
not too far behind
Hejduk - 0.80

Now, even in the dead puck era the best stars were averaging more or less a point a game. Modano, Sundin, etc. Alfredsson is the closest one here of the three and he has some warts. Elias was fine defensively but so are Alfie and Hossa who pride themselves in a great two-way game. No advantage there. Does his playoff resume make up for it that much?

Lecavalier has a career 0.85 PPG. Players like Gaborik (0.89) or Richards (0.91) are ahead of him in that category too. Datsyuk (0.98) and Zetterberg (0.94) are ahead of him. This is just one mere stat mind you, but it is an example of something that Elias falls behind in. In reality can we say that Elias has had a career better than Brad Richards? Both of their careers overlapped each others. I honestly can't say that Elias has had the better career. It's close and as it stands right now I don't like the idea of Richards in the HHOF.

So that's just an example out there of the players that are very similar to Elias career wise if not already ahead of him. Would he not open the door for others?
Honestly, the modern player in a situation most similar to Elias is Adam Foote - Foote was the defensive cornerstone of the third or fourth best team of the era (depending on if you include the Penguins as "of the era"). But I think Elias is clearly a step up from Foote - better peak, and more team success. Also, Foote was also overshadowed by Bourque and Blake for a time, while Elias was never really overshadowed by another forward on NJ until he was in his mid 30s, but by then, the team was on the decline. Elias was the clearcut best forward on the team (no matter what you try to claim otherwise) when they went to 3 finals in 4 years. Also, it's tougher for defensemen to get in anyway.

So no, I don't think inducting Elias would open the door for anyone - he would get in for the same reason guys like Steve Shutt, Glenn Anderson, and Joe Nieuwendyk got in - contributions to winning teams.

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02-23-2013, 03:06 PM
  #48
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Honestly, the modern player in a situation most similar to Elias is Adam Foote - Foote was the defensive cornerstone of the third or fourth best team of the era (depending on if you include the Penguins as "of the era"). But I think Elias is clearly a step up from Foote - better peak, and more team success. Also, Foote was also overshadowed by Bourque and Blake for a time, while Elias was never really overshadowed by another forward on NJ until he was in his mid 30s, but by then, the team was on the decline. Elias was the clearcut best forward on the team (no matter what you try to claim otherwise) when they went to 3 finals in 4 years. Also, it's tougher for defensemen to get in anyway.

So no, I don't think inducting Elias would open the door for anyone - he would get in for the same reason guys like Steve Shutt, Glenn Anderson, and Joe Nieuwendyk got in - contributions to winning teams.
I've heard that before, Elias being compared to Nieuwendyk which isn't the best compliment. You could argue that the likes of Nieuwendyk - who I thought was a poor inductee - opened the doors for guys like Elias in the future. Shutt is a guy who was a weird choice too but part of a face of a dynasty helped him. The biggest knock on him is that he can pretty much thank Lafleur for getting in there. Anderson did just too much when everything was on the line. 93 playoff goals (5th all-time) 17 game winning goals (5th all-time). Elias has 6 playoff game winning goals. Three less than Sykora and as many as Rafalski. That's fine, but if you would ask anyone who was a face of playoff hockey more between Anderson and Elias I don't think you'd have one vote against Anderson.

Elias just doesn't seem to fit in there. He's comparable to many of his current peers that really don't have much of a shot of getting in. I know you say that Elias wasn't overshadowed by another Devils forward, but there are lots of players that wouldn't have been overshadowed in that situation too. The Devils have yet to even have a 100 point player in a season. This isn't a franchise known for elite forwards. So I think that elevates Elias higher than he should be in the first place.

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02-23-2013, 09:13 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I've said all along that stats are half the battle, if only half the battle. They do matter and in Elias' case I was simply showing that from a statistical point of view he shares company with several players who better him in this category that we never think are making the HHOF.
The point is, even if their stats were even (which they aren't) then the next,t piece to look at was how responsible they were for those stats. How often were they the catalyst for their line? In the cases of these two players, the answers are "always" and "never". They are worlds apart.

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02-24-2013, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The point is, even if their stats were even (which they aren't) then the next,t piece to look at was how responsible they were for those stats. How often were they the catalyst for their line? In the cases of these two players, the answers are "always" and "never". They are worlds apart.
I think that overrates Elias a bit there. I wouldn't say the two players were "worlds apart". Hejduk did win a Richard trophy. He had a lovely Cup run in 2001. Routinely was a 30 goal man, peaking at 50. I'll give Elias the advantage over him, but I won't with Richards. To truly see the mark of Elias I think you have to ensure that beyond a shadow of a doubt he has surpassed a guy like Richards. Honestly, I don't think he has or will. Richards is also younger too and put on one of the best playoff performances in 2004 we've seen. I don't know a whole lot of people who would put Richards in the HHOF. That might be a barometer I would focus on because if he can't surpass one of his peers destined to miss out on the HHOF then I don't see why he is this mortal lock around here.

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