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A little love for Joe Sacco??

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Old
02-23-2013, 09:36 AM
  #26
klozge
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No love from me. Not anymore. 3+ years and I don't think he has learned a bit.

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02-23-2013, 09:47 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
mostly it is because Sacco only knows one way to coach a team and has shown very little room for flexibility despite poor results. He was a hard-nosed player in his time in the NHL and demands that type of aggression from his players. His forecheckers dump the puck constantly in order to start an attack, which is one of the least efficient means of scoring goals (clicky). His backcheckers have no real defensive system other than covering whichever man has the puck, making it quite easy to gain the Colorado zone and begin a play.

His choices of players to put on the ice further reflect this poor decision-making, since he continually dresses goons and scrubs over moderately talented NHL players. The best example I can show you is that of Patrick Bordeleau, goon extraordinaire, who has played every Colorado game this season. Note this video of Bordeleau against Bisonette:

where Bordeleau's linemates have gotten the puck deep and managed to get it to the slot, a place where pretty much any NHL player will have a high quality scoring chance, he was in the neutral zone starting a fight. Ridiculous waste of a potential asset to an NHL team. Sacco has also dressed Cody McLeod three years running despite McLeod being abjectly poor at every facet of hockey including fighting. That David Koci ever played an NHL game for the Avalanche is further proof of Sacco's (and, in fairness, the GM's) ineptitude. He kept Matt Hunwick, who played the worst defense I have ever seen an NHL defenseman play, on the roster instead of a decent player in Jonas HolÝs because Hunwick was LD while HolÝs was RD. He played Kevin Porter (who? exactly) on the point of the PP and put a 36 year old Chuck Kobasew on the top line.

I will say that there are several things that Sacco deserves credit for. Under his tenure every single one of Colorado's vaunted young players (including but not limited to Chris Stewart, Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly, TJ Gagliardi, David Jones, Brandon Yip [briefly], Ryan Wilson, Kevin Shattenkirk, Stefan Elliott, Tyson Barrie, and Gabriel Landeskog) has reached or exceeded expectations. I don't think many other coaches could have developed young talent as well as Sacco has done. However, since Duncan Siemans is likely the only real prospect left that looks to be an impact player going forward for Colorado, it is necessary to get a coach with better skills than nurturing rookies. In the same vein, I will complement Sacco in that, unlike a coach like Quenniville, he knows how to create a line where players have chemistry and rarely shuffles up lines that are slumping. Likewise, he has only shown to have a "goalie controversy" once, when JS Giguere was playing quite well and Varlamov was playing pretty poorly. Otherwise, he lets the designated starter play the majority of games.

Sacco is a good coach for a team that needs to get out of the basement. He's not a good coach for a team that needs to move on to its next step in contending for a Cup by assigning a system and responsibilities on both sides of the ice for each player. Since he only knows one way to instruct a team, furthermore, he can quickly become a square peg in a round hole.

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02-23-2013, 11:52 AM
  #28
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Avs might need better coaching, but I think we put too much into it.

This team had Quenneville and that didn't get them anywhere. Chicago won the cup and they are unbeaten in regulation so far under Joel.

Proves that afterall you need good players up and down the roster to win in the NHL or any sport.

Avs lack good players in key areas and I don't think this team can make the playoffs just yet even if they had the best coach in the league.

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02-23-2013, 12:00 PM
  #29
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I think we'd get into the playoffs with a great coach. This team has an excellent goaler, two quality scoring lines now that Lando's back, a good first pairing dman whenever EJ's back, a solid second pairing with Henda-Barrie, and whatever happens with ROR.

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02-23-2013, 12:07 PM
  #30
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The guys at NBC made an interesting point that the players enjoy playing for Sacco.

He's definitely a "players coach". That doesn't mean he's a softy and won't put you in the doghouse (Duchene last season). BUT, look what the result of that... it was a wake up call for Duchene and he's amazing this season.

My beef is less with Sacco and more with the FO not giving him any depth to work with. It's our top guys playing with the LEM. Sure, Sacco has his weaknesses as a coach, but he hasn't had much to work with.

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02-23-2013, 12:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Avs might need better coaching, but I think we put too much into it.

This team had Quenneville and that didn't get them anywhere. Chicago won the cup and they are unbeaten in regulation so far under Joel.

Proves that afterall you need good players up and down the roster to win in the NHL or any sport.

Avs lack good players in key areas and I don't think this team can make the playoffs just yet even if they had the best coach in the league.
Q had a crappy team, with a few guys too old and slow. He also had his hands tied partially behind his back in terms of coaching strategy, and who he should play. That's why he left.

Much different system, and team in Chicago.

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02-23-2013, 12:10 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I think we'd get into the playoffs with a great coach. This team has an excellent goaler, two quality scoring lines now that Lando's back, a good first pairing dman whenever EJ's back, a solid second pairing with Henda-Barrie, and whatever happens with ROR.
When have the Avs ever went out and got an excellent coach? Crawford, Hartley, Q, Granato?

The Avs stick to their good old boys ways and that probably won't change. That's on the FO, not the coach. Sacco has a lot to learn as a coach. He can drive me crazy, but don't expect the Avs to go sign Ruff or anything.

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02-23-2013, 12:15 PM
  #33
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So you think a coach who has to throw out Palushaj - Mitchell - Hedjuk as a 2nd unit should be able to make them have success?

This team does not have the players needed to contend especially on the back end. If anyone should get blame it's Sherman for not giving Sacco the players needed to succeed. That and we have an owner who refuses to spend money and is happy with a team being at the cap floor.

I think it is amazing that we are still a .500 team with the players we have lost and our terrible D- corps.

Sacco is not the one playing an he cant turn a piece of ***** into a diamond.
This is not an excuse quite honestly. That's basically the 3rd line, and a mediocre 2nd PP unit. Not many teams have epic 2nd PP units, you basically rely on your 1st, and then it's a happy bonus when the 2nd unit scores.

He's got a healthy PPG capable player in Stastny, and a 27 goal scorer in Jones that he can't seem to get to play to the level they're capable of.

He's also got Duchene, PAP, and McGinn. That's not a bad top two lines. He's got enough to work with. The PP should be better, and this team should not have trouble scoring goals with that group.

This is something a good coach can get a team to do.


Last edited by Frenchy: 02-23-2013 at 06:35 PM. Reason: i had to change the beginning , but the rest was good. False start i suppose
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02-23-2013, 12:22 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
This is not an excuse quite honestly. That's basically the 3rd line, and a mediocre 2nd PP unit. Not many teams have epic 2nd PP units, you basically rely on your 1st, and then it's a happy bonus when the 2nd unit scores.

He's got a healthy PPG player in Stastny, and a 27 goal scorer in Jones that he can't seem to get to play to the level they're capable of.

He's also got Duchene, PAP, and McGinn. That's not a bad top two lines. He's got enough to work with. The PP should be better, and this team should not have trouble scoring goals with that group.

This is something a good coach can get a team to do.
I don't think your giving Sacco enough slack. We have a CRAP D-core, and missing our only really good defenseman. Add to the fact the team was rocked with injuries to our top lines with Lando and Downie going down, I'd say Sacco is doing alright with what cards he was dealt so far this season. The Avs are in the hunt and that's saying something about his coaching abilities.

He's not a great coach, I'll give you that. I don't agree with a lot of his strategy, but I will say he's impressed me with who he has. Compare our D to the rest of the league... Sacco doesn't have much to work with there.


Last edited by Frenchy: 02-23-2013 at 06:36 PM. Reason: see post above
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02-23-2013, 12:22 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by iAvs View Post
The guys at NBC made an interesting point that the players enjoy playing for Sacco.

He's definitely a "players coach". That doesn't mean he's a softy and won't put you in the doghouse (Duchene last season). BUT, look what the result of that... it was a wake up call for Duchene and he's amazing this season.

My beef is less with Sacco and more with the FO not giving him any depth to work with. It's our top guys playing with the LEM. Sure, Sacco has his weaknesses as a coach, but he hasn't had much to work with.

I don't think Sacco put Duchene in the doghouse, rather Sacco tried shuffling him around because he was struggling due to injury. If you think this season's production from Duchene is because of Sacco and not because of Duchene's offseason training and desire to be better, welp.

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02-23-2013, 12:24 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
to quote myself on the main board
Pretty good summary.

Sacco seems to do pretty well with young players and get the team to generally play hard for him but he's not the type of coach that can take you all the way.

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02-23-2013, 12:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Q had a crappy team, with a few guys too old and slow. He also had his hands tied partially behind his back in terms of coaching strategy, and who he should play. That's why he left.

Much different system, and team in Chicago.
Waaaaaait a minute. So it's OK to give Q a free pass (excuse) but not Sacco?

Q handled our goalie situation horribly, and killed their confidence. In fact, he drove me crazier than Sacco ever has. Q got a stacked team in Chicago and they won the Cup. Put Sacco in that same position and he probably has a cup ring right now too.

Sacco has yet to have a team anywhere close to that. So, I'm willing to wait and see what he does when we have a better roster for him.

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02-23-2013, 12:25 PM
  #38
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As long as he hovers that line of mediocrity, some people will just keep making excuses for him.

I've seen coaches do way more with way less than having a healthy Duchene, Stastny, McGinn, Jones, PAP, and Varly. Way more with way less. Even with EJ and Landy this team wans't that good

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02-23-2013, 12:28 PM
  #39
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Pretty good summary.

Sacco seems to do pretty well with young players and get the team to generally play hard for him but he's not the type of coach that can take you all the way.
Meh... you could say that for most coaches who have young, sub-par rosters. It's hard to take a team all the way when they aren't built to go all the way.

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02-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by iAvs View Post
Waaaaaait a minute. So it's OK to give Q a free pass (excuse) but not Sacco?

Q handled our goalie situation horribly, and killed their confidence. In fact, he drove me crazier than Sacco ever has. Q got a stacked team in Chicago and they won the Cup. Put Sacco in that same position and he probably has a cup ring right now too.

Sacco has yet to have a team anywhere close to that. So, I'm willing to wait and see what he does when we have a better roster for him.
No, I was fine with letting him go. The team needed to make multiple changes, just like it does now.

Joe Sacco is not Quenneville though. Sacco's had one decent year, that would fall behind about 8 or so seasons on Q's list if he were to have a year like Sacco's first. Not to mention two cups on his resume, one as an assistant, and one as a head coach.

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02-23-2013, 12:45 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
No, I was fine with letting him go. The team needed to make multiple changes, just like it does now.

Joe Sacco is not Quenneville though. Sacco's had one decent year, that would fall behind about 8 or so seasons on Q's list if he were to have a year like Sacco's first. Not to mention two cups on his resume, one as an assistant, and one as a head coach.
Ok, he was an assistant on a team with Sakic, Roy, Forsberg, Foote, Lemieux, Deadmarsh, Ozolinsh, etc.... how much credit should he get for that ring? The Avs were a powerhouse in the making.

I'm not going to say he doesn't have his positives, but would Q lead this current squad into the playoffs? I'm not buying it. Sure, they may be a select few coaches who could make this team better based off of their strategy and game planning. None are available though.

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02-23-2013, 01:23 PM
  #42
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It's silly to dock Quenneville because he led a stacked Chicago team to a Cup. Most Cup-winning coaches have a stacked roster when they win it all. He's a great coach, and he got the most out of a lackluster and aging Avalanche roster during his time here. I don't regret them parting ways since it was clear the Avs were about to head off a cliff and Quenneville had no interest in getting fired because of a terrible GM.

One thing where the numbers fail Sacco completely. Doesn't matter how sucky the rosters have been during his tenure, his division record in a relatively soft Northwest has been abysmal.

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02-23-2013, 01:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
As long as he hovers that line of mediocrity, some people will just keep making excuses for him.

I've seen coaches do way more with way less than having a healthy Duchene, Stastny, McGinn, Jones, PAP, and Varly. Way more with way less. Even with EJ and Landy this team wans't that good
Change McGinn or Jones with someone like Hossa or St Louis or Kovalchuk.

Replace Stastny with someone more consistent as your #2 Center who makes 6.6 mill per.

And finally give EJ a good partner on D, and all of the sudden Sacco wont look as bad as he does now.

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02-23-2013, 02:12 PM
  #44
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Change McGinn or Jones with someone like Hossa or St Louis or Kovalchuk.

Replace Stastny with someone more consistent as your #2 Center who makes 6.6 mill per.

And finally give EJ a good partner on D, and all of the sudden Sacco wont look as bad as he does now.
Giving him a stacked team to make up for his lack of coaching ability, is not a plan. Actual good coaches like Tippet, Ruff, Lemaire, Hartley, Sutter, Andy Murray, and Paul MacLean have done way more with less depth and talent.

Instead of replacing guys he can't get to score, why not bring in a coach that knows how to coach players and get them to score. Or knows how to find a balance between defense, and offense, and an effective system, and special teams.

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Ok, he was an assistant on a team with Sakic, Roy, Forsberg, Foote, Lemieux, Deadmarsh, Ozolinsh, etc.... how much credit should he get for that ring? The Avs were a powerhouse in the making.

I'm not going to say he doesn't have his positives, but would Q lead this current squad into the playoffs? I'm not buying it. Sure, they may be a select few coaches who could make this team better based off of their strategy and game planning. None are available though.
We don't have much to talk about in this regard if you keep trying to put Sacco on the same level as Joel Quenneville who has two stanley cups as a coach, a Jack Adams award, and 638 wins.

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02-23-2013, 02:15 PM
  #45
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I don't fully blame Sacco. Anybody would have trouble winning with the current roster. It's time for a change of attitude on this team.

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02-23-2013, 02:31 PM
  #46
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I think Duchene has a lot more to do with his own success than Joe Sacco.

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02-23-2013, 02:41 PM
  #47
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Ok, he was an assistant on a team with Sakic, Roy, Forsberg, Foote, Lemieux, Deadmarsh, Ozolinsh, etc.... how much credit should he get for that ring? The Avs were a powerhouse in the making.

I'm not going to say he doesn't have his positives, but would Q lead this current squad into the playoffs? I'm not buying it. Sure, they may be a select few coaches who could make this team better based off of their strategy and game planning. None are available though.
When coach Q was Avs coach we had 2 average goalies in Theo and Budaj, Tyler freaking Arnason(!!!!!!!) and Patrice Breezeby and we still made the playoffs 2 out of 3 seasons. The season we missed the playoffs we still had 95 points. Then Granato took over and the same team finished last

I can't 100% guarantee we would make the playoffs with coach Q but we for sure would be better than we are right now. Funnily enough Chicago got 2 pretty average goalies and they still manage to win. And they also won the Cup with Antti Niemi that also is a average goalie. I know Q juggles his goalies but he hasn't had the best goalies to work with over the years.

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02-23-2013, 03:31 PM
  #48
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Waaaaaait a minute. So it's OK to give Q a free pass (excuse) but not Sacco?

Q handled our goalie situation horribly, and killed their confidence. In fact, he drove me crazier than Sacco ever has. Q got a stacked team in Chicago and they won the Cup. Put Sacco in that same position and he probably has a cup ring right now too.

Sacco has yet to have a team anywhere close to that. So, I'm willing to wait and see what he does when we have a better roster for him.
No kidding. This place lacks all sort of sense most of times.

Sacco should put a contending team up every single year even though his GM gives him garbage to use and their boss is happy spending the LEAST amount of money as possible.

Ya, getting a new coach will change everything. Some people have NO clue.

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02-23-2013, 03:42 PM
  #49
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The main reason why Avs aren't good this days is their D core.

Even the core that had old Foote, Liles, Hannan were better than this D, and that says a lot because that D wasn't very good either.

Unless Barrie and Elliott develop nicely and become impact players for the Avs, this team will be a losing team no matter who the coach is, or they just have to trade for better d-men.


Last edited by the_fan: 02-23-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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02-23-2013, 04:14 PM
  #50
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The problem isn't Sacco, it's Sherman. We have holes (including coaching), yet Sherman sits back and waits until it's far too late & lost before changes are made. Sherman isn't innovative. He's not pro-active.

He's "re-active", and that's suicide for a club.

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