HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Couturier

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-22-2013, 10:07 PM
  #176
mercury
Registered User
 
mercury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: South Philly/SoCal
Country: United States
Posts: 11,094
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
You really think he is a 30 goal 50 assist type of guy?

I see him being a 20-25 goal and 30-40 assist type of guy.
How can you call him a 55-pt. max guy if you think he can top out at 25 goals and 40 assists in a season?

mercury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2013, 10:07 PM
  #177
ps241
Drunken rant!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,544
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Its not a horrible assessment of talent, mind you I saw him more when the team was in Atlanta, but I would say the say thing about Brayden Coburn. Guys 6'5, skates like the wind, has all the athletic talent in the world.. but nothing between the ears. What I'm saying is Couturier has just as much potiental if not more than Bogo. He's 20 years old and currently playing behind Giroux and B.Schenn two guys who aren't so bad themselves. In addition, playing on the 3rd line, in a shutdown role is comfortable for a kid who excels in those areas. Couts peak is somewhere around Bergeron/Kesler, I guess in my opinion Bogo will never be a true #1 on any team in this league. The Flyers are in need of a true stud, and Bogo isn't it.
It's cool we are all entitled to our opinions but I suggest you give Bogosian and fresh look. I saw him in every game last season and he is already our #1 shut down defensive defensman and he put up top 30 PPG scoring stats last season as a 21 year old. He would have been the leading scoring defensman on 7 teams last season and I believe top 2 in scoring on about 23 teams (it's been a while since I have done those numbers). he is already a top pairing D man and arguably our #1 all around D man and he has done it at a young age. Within our zone the game has slowed down allot for him and he has gotten very good at making the proper decisions with and without the puck.

Of coarse I have now given him the kiss of death going into the game with the Flyers tomorrow

ps241 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 07:55 AM
  #178
Jetsfareast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Philippines
Country: Canada
Posts: 438
vCash: 695
Couture do not have a high ceiling that is way he was picked where he was drafted. Meaning there will only be a little improvement on his progress from here on end.

Let me see schiefele rookie season next year, schiefele will have more points than couture..

Jetsfareast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 12:56 PM
  #179
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
As a Flyers fan, I see both sides of the Couturier argument.

I personally think he is a great defensive forward already and he will eventually contend for a Selke. I also see flashes of brilliant vision, so I think he will be a very good offensive threat as well. Perhaps not on the level of RNH or Huberdeau, but very good nonetheless. I also think his linemates have been holding him down in certain situations. When you're an elite passer but you've got a couple old, slow, primarily defensive forwards on your wing, it's tough to create much offense. Couturier is not an explosive skater or the kind of guy who's going to deke through 5 guys, so without better linemates, he's always going to struggle.

I also see the other side of the argument though, for his second year in the league, you'd like Couturier to show a little more offense. And despite the fact that he plays with below average offensive linemates and often draws match-ups with the toughest opposing lines, he has had several opportunities this year (3 breakaways that I can remember clearly) and he's come up empty for the most part.

All that being said, I think Flyers fans in general tend to overrate Couturier. He did not slip in the draft because of Mono. There are plenty of situations where guys fall from being the #1 overall prospect to the #3 overall prospect over the course of a full year just due to their play and then due to differences in NHL teams' scouting, he doesn't go till #8 overall. Dougie Hamilton for example was #5 in the final skater rankings and didn't go till #9 overall. The simple truth is that Couturier fell because guys like Landeskog were more NHL ready and guys like Huberdeau and RNH and Strome had/have higher offensive ceilings and then there were a few "questionable" picks like Scheifele.

Flyers fans also tend to overrate Couturier's current value IMO. I think his value is still that of a top prospect. His offense is not a guarantee, far from it, but he's shown flashes. And beyond that, he has extraordinary defensive ability. But given that the offense hasn't shown up yet, ie. he hasn't "proved" at an NHL level that he's anything more than a 3rd line center, he's worth the normal price for a top prospect. Which means that should the Flyers wish to acquire a top defenseman, using Couturier it would take a package similar to what we received for Mike Richards. Something like Couturier + Simmonds (obviously Simmonds has taken a step forward since the LA trade, so his value is higher, but likewise a top defenseman is generally worth more than a top center).

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:00 PM
  #180
CanadianFlyersFan18
Registered User
 
CanadianFlyersFan18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 608
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
It's cool we are all entitled to our opinions but I suggest you give Bogosian and fresh look. I saw him in every game last season and he is already our #1 shut down defensive defensman and he put up top 30 PPG scoring stats last season as a 21 year old. He would have been the leading scoring defensman on 7 teams last season and I believe top 2 in scoring on about 23 teams (it's been a while since I have done those numbers). he is already a top pairing D man and arguably our #1 all around D man and he has done it at a young age. Within our zone the game has slowed down allot for him and he has gotten very good at making the proper decisions with and without the puck.

Of coarse I have now given him the kiss of death going into the game with the Flyers tomorrow
Wouldn't give him your #1 overall defensman status quite yet, Enstrom is a beast.. and I love his game. As for Zach, seeing him play today, he's matured for sure, but one thing I did notice is he tends to over think things when pressure is put on him. A lot like Luke Schenn where he can hold the puck a little too long in his own end and turns it over. Again, no slight on Bogo he could turn out to be that solid #1 your looking for, I just prefer the risk of developing Couts as oppose to Bogo.

CanadianFlyersFan18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:05 PM
  #181
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,690
vCash: 500
Anyone see couturier toe drag through #1 defenseman bogosians legs in front of the net?

orange is better is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:08 PM
  #182
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Anyone see couturier toe drag through #1 defenseman bogosians legs in front of the net?
It was a very nice play. It's a shame Couturier wasn't playing with a winger with the instincts to stop at the back post. If he was, that's a goal.

Where's a legit goal scorer like Sestitov when you need him?

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:10 PM
  #183
frieswithbenefits
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ithaca, NY
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 314
vCash: 500
How about

Couturier for Jason Demers+

I dont know what to add. Maybe Murray or 3rd?

frieswithbenefits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:10 PM
  #184
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,690
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
It was a very nice play. It's a shame Couturier wasn't playing with a winger with the instincts to stop at the back post. If he was, that's a goal.

Where's a legit goal scorer like Sestitov when you need him?
Yeah, chips is a one man offense

orange is better is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:40 PM
  #185
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,060
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetsfareast View Post
Couture do not have a high ceiling that is way he was picked where he was drafted. Meaning there will only be a little improvement on his progress from here on end.

Let me see schiefele rookie season next year, schiefele will have more points than couture..
No offense but I don't know what this adds?

I don't know why any player on one team needs to be bad for a player on another team to be good.

I hope Scheifele plays well for us next year, and Couturier continues to play well to the Flyers (just not against the Jets).

Huffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:55 PM
  #186
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,690
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetsfareast View Post
Couture do not have a high ceiling that is way he was picked where he was drafted. Meaning there will only be a little improvement on his progress from here on end.

Let me see schiefele rookie season next year, schiefele will have more points than couture..
What makes you say that? His 1 nhl point, or his worse junior numbers?

You're right though, players drafted 8th overall, who hold the position of a 1st overall pick for over a year typically don't have high ceilings.

But we can hope right? I just wish we'd have drafted mark scheifele instead. Damn this organization that's been here for 50 years!

orange is better is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:02 PM
  #187
JetsHomer
Registered User
 
JetsHomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,264
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
What makes you say that? His 1 nhl point, or his worse junior numbers?

You're right though, players drafted 8th overall, who hold the position of a 1st overall pick for over a year typically don't have high ceilings.

But we can hope right? I just wish we'd have drafted mark scheifele instead. Damn this organization that's been here for 50 years!
Not that I'm going to argue this because its too premature at this in their careers, but Scheifele's third juniors year numbers are better than Couturiers.

JetsHomer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #188
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
I also see the other side of the argument though, for his second year in the league, you'd like Couturier to show a little more offense. And despite the fact that he plays with below average offensive linemates and often draws match-ups with the toughest opposing lines, he has had several opportunities this year (3 breakaways that I can remember clearly) and he's come up empty for the most part.
Sounds like JVR speak right here.

JVR might never put it all together. He might never break out and score goals. He will never be one of the centerpieces of an offense.

All I have to say is that barring injury, where there is smoke there is almost always fire. Very few times does a player with obvious flashes fizzle out without there being an external reason at work.

Hartnell - Giroux - xxxxxxxx
Simmonds - Schenn - Read
Laughton - Couturier - Voracek

If the Flyers can keep that core together, it's going to be an absolutely scary offensive force in 2-3 years. Using Briere's salary to go after Ryan or Perry is a bonus. Hopefully Gustafsson becomes the next Carle, and Gostisbehere turns into something awesome. Draft defense and/or trade Laughton to get a blueliner and cross your fingers. I'm not really worried about this season honestly. If the Flyers stay patient they have a massive offensive force on their hands. Couturier is no exception. I just wish JVR was around to plug that slot right next to Giroux.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:17 PM
  #189
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Sounds like JVR speak right here.

JVR might never put it all together. He might never break out and score goals. He will never be one of the centerpieces of an offense.

All I have to say is that barring injury, where there is smoke there is almost always fire. Very few times does a player with obvious flashes fizzle out without there being an external reason at work.

Hartnell - Giroux - xxxxxxxx
Simmonds - Schenn - Read
Laughton - Couturier - Voracek

If the Flyers can keep that core together, it's going to be an absolutely scary offensive force in 2-3 years. Using Briere's salary to go after Ryan or Perry is a bonus. Hopefully Gustafsson becomes the next Carle, and Gostisbehere turns into something awesome. Draft defense and/or trade Laughton to get a blueliner and cross your fingers. I'm not really worried about this season honestly. If the Flyers stay patient they have a massive offensive force on their hands. Couturier is no exception. I just wish JVR was around to plug that slot right next to Giroux.
I agree with you on both accounts (Couturier and JVR), I'm simply saying that I understand the opposing side of the argument. There's justification for both points of view. I'm on your side though. In fact, you can see my JVR-related comments in the thread on the Flyers' board

I also like the lines you posted. The one small change I would make is keeping Voracek w/ Giroux. They work well together IMO. If anyone leaves that line, it would be Hartnell and he would be replaced by a better goalscorer (ie. Perry). If the Flyers could land Perry this offseason, Perry-Giroux-Voracek and Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds would be an excellent top-6. That 2nd line would be hell for opponents to play against too

And while Couturier is honestly one of my favorite Flyers and I think the talent will come, I'd have no problem packaging him with something else for a true young #1 defenseman. Having a great 3rd line center like Couturier is a luxury, while a #1 defenseman is a necessity. And the reality of the situation is that you really can't have three 20 minute / night centers. And I think each of Giroux, Schenn, and Couturier are best @ center and in their primes all of them will be deserving of a true top-6 20 min/night role.

Again, I'm not advocating dumping Couturier, but for the right return? I'd absolutely trade him and roll w/ Laughton as the 3rd line C.

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:46 PM
  #190
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Again, I'm not advocating dumping Couturier, but for the right return? I'd absolutely trade him and roll w/ Laughton as the 3rd line C.
Knowing we have Laughton certainly makes life interesting for Couturier. Laughton will never be on Couturier's level, but knowing Schenn is breaking out and that Giroux is still Giroux, Couturier may not be mandatory for this team.

Don't get me wrong though, I think you win championships with guys like Couturier. I'd like to see if Laughton is an enticing piece to add to in order to bring a solid PMD into the lineup.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 09:56 PM
  #191
ps241
Drunken rant!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,544
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Wouldn't give him your #1 overall defensman status quite yet, Enstrom is a beast.. and I love his game. As for Zach, seeing him play today, he's matured for sure, but one thing I did notice is he tends to over think things when pressure is put on him. A lot like Luke Schenn where he can hold the puck a little too long in his own end and turns it over. Again, no slight on Bogo he could turn out to be that solid #1 your looking for, I just prefer the risk of developing Couts as oppose to Bogo.
Yea I have no problem with the call of developing your own prospects i feel that way about Trouba and Scheifele....i would prefer to see how they turn out as opposed to packaging them up and shipping them off. as a side note I cursed Bogo...he was off today (read our PGT if you don't believe me) and that was his worst game since he's been back. Kinda of new it was going to happen and even called it in a previous post. Usually he doesn't overthink things he has gotten very good at the quick read and reaction especially in our own end. Keep an eye on him next game we play. I love Enstrom and we are definatley missing him.....our power play is beyond awful with him out.

I new the taunt gods would get me and I had my son in skating today so I was unable to watch the game live and snuck The radio feed on for just a second and I mean a second and the first thing I hear the commentators say literally "couturier strips the puck from Postma and he is in one on one against Bogosian and pulls some highlight reel dangle but doesn't quite finish" and Hnidy says "that's the first time I have seen that happen to Bogosian this year" and I laughed so Loud I scared my kid ....correct me if I am wrong but Couturier with all his strengths usually is not the fancy dangle type and Bogosian routinely shuts down the Crosby's and the stamkos's 1v1.......I asked for it and got it!!

ps241 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 10:06 PM
  #192
Art of Sedinery
Registered User
 
Art of Sedinery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,874
vCash: 500
Jordan Schroeder + 1st?

Art of Sedinery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 10:24 PM
  #193
Jetsfareast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Philippines
Country: Canada
Posts: 438
vCash: 695
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Anyone see couturier toe drag through #1 defenseman bogosians legs in front of the net?
Yah burmistrov makes fancy play also, highlight reel.

Jetsfareast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 10:30 PM
  #194
Jetsfareast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Philippines
Country: Canada
Posts: 438
vCash: 695
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
What makes you say that? His 1 nhl point, or his worse junior numbers?

You're right though, players drafted 8th overall, who hold the position of a 1st overall pick for over a year typically don't have high ceilings.

But we can hope right? I just wish we'd have drafted mark scheifele instead. Damn this organization that's been here for 50 years!
Well I am a jets fan so I need to cheer for their draft picks
But I feel sorry for the jets young guns, burmistrov and schiefele, last year Kane also early in the season. Their coach is a veteran type of coach, he will play the antropovs, jokinen, well wood until the dam breaks. I like coach Noel speeches but it seems he does not fit the direction this "young" team is building. I think schiefele played 11 games in the NHL. Yes with 1 point. But you should see the situation he was put into. 4th line right wing, crazy coach. Should just let him stayed in juniors, he would have challenged for the ohl scoring title. He is 2nd to galyenchuk for avg points per game.

Here is my prediction for fun!

2017 Stanley cup finals flyers vs the jets
Schiefele centers the jets #1 line and couturier same for the flyers.
Jets win in 7games, make it in o.t. To make it thrilling

I think when this Is over though, schiefele will produce better numbers but couturier will be an elite defensive forward with good numbers.


Last edited by Jetsfareast: 02-23-2013 at 10:44 PM.
Jetsfareast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 11:35 PM
  #195
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,690
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Not that I'm going to argue this because its too premature at this in their careers, but Scheifele's third juniors year numbers are better than Couturiers.
Mark Scheifele - 3rd junior year
39 GP 66 PTS 1.69 PPG = 110 points over 65 games

Sean Couturier - 3rd junior year
55 GP 96 PTS 1.75 PPG = 113 points over 65 games (missed 10 games due to mono)

orange is better is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 12:12 AM
  #196
WeekendAtBernies
Registered User
 
WeekendAtBernies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Mark Scheifele - 3rd junior year
39 GP 66 PTS 1.69 PPG = 110 points over 65 games

Sean Couturier - 3rd junior year
55 GP 96 PTS 1.75 PPG = 113 points over 65 games (missed 10 games due to mono)
Not that it really matters @ all, because draft year performance is way more important IMO than "3rd year in juniors", but Couturier actually played 58 games to get his 96 points, bringing his PPG avg below that of Scheifele.

That being said, I think comparing guys' "3rd years" in juniors is absolutely absurd when it's Couturier's age 18 year versus Scheifele's age 20 year... but that's just me.

Also, just in case anyone starts the "birthday" argument, Couturier is 3 months older. That's hardly enough of an age difference to account for using a guy's age 18 season and comparing it to another guy's age 20 season.

If you want a more fair comparison, look at Scheifele's age 19 season versus Couturier's age 18 season: Scheifele averaged only 1.34 PPG and 0.49 GPG, while Couturier averaged 1.66 PPG and 0.62 GPG aka Couturier wiped the floor with him.

WeekendAtBernies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 07:23 AM
  #197
PayItForward
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Mark Scheifele - 3rd junior year
39 GP 66 PTS 1.69 PPG = 110 points over 65 games

Sean Couturier - 3rd junior year
55 GP 96 PTS 1.75 PPG = 113 points over 65 games (missed 10 games due to mono)
58 games for Couturier that year.

And they played in different leagues, so it's hard to really compare their numbers.

PayItForward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 08:23 AM
  #198
orange is better
than other colors...
 
orange is better's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,690
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Not that it really matters @ all, because draft year performance is way more important IMO than "3rd year in juniors", but Couturier actually played 58 games to get his 96 points, bringing his PPG avg below that of Scheifele.

That being said, I think comparing guys' "3rd years" in juniors is absolutely absurd when it's Couturier's age 18 year versus Scheifele's age 20 year... but that's just me.

Also, just in case anyone starts the "birthday" argument, Couturier is 3 months older. That's hardly enough of an age difference to account for using a guy's age 18 season and comparing it to another guy's age 20 season.

If you want a more fair comparison, look at Scheifele's age 19 season versus Couturier's age 18 season: Scheifele averaged only 1.34 PPG and 0.49 GPG, while Couturier averaged 1.66 PPG and 0.62 GPG aka Couturier wiped the floor with him.
My mistake. And I agree that players draft years can be more telling, but I was merely responding to someone saying scheifele a 3rd year numbers are better, which I now realize is true, but only slightly. 1.69 for scheifele over 39 games, 1.66 for couturier over 58 games.

orange is better is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 08:35 AM
  #199
Predsrule
Registered User
 
Predsrule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
My mistake. And I agree that players draft years can be more telling, but I was merely responding to someone saying scheifele a 3rd year numbers are better, which I now realize is true, but only slightly. 1.69 for scheifele over 39 games, 1.66 for couturier over 58 games.
QMJHL for Sean Couturier
OHL for Mark Scheifele

... so fact that Scheifele had better numbers is even more impressive..

Predsrule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2013, 09:08 AM
  #200
ps241
Drunken rant!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,544
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
QMJHL for Sean Couturier
OHL for Mark Scheifele

... so fact that Scheifele had better numbers is even more impressive..
Well here's hoping they both work out well and achieve their offensive potential at the NHL level.....doesn't really have to be either or on this topic.

ps241 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.