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David Desharnais Discussion (Slow Start & Contact Talk)

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:17 PM
  #726
DAChampion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Even if Galchenyuk passes DD next year, at this point and time, there is no reason to believe that MTL would keep Eller over DD at C.

If anything, we keep those three centres going forward, and convert Eller to a full-time winger. Good depth in-case of an injury.
You're having trouble following.

Let's try again:

There's only so much offensive time in a game. Only so many ozone starts, and only so much PP time (about 6-8 minutes a game). When a coach gives offensive minutes to DD, that means he isn't giving offensive minutes to Plekanec and Galchenyuk.

Since DD is only capable of playing offense (that could change), he thus contributes a negative value-added, because whenever he is on the ice at center, this means that we won't have Galchenyuk or Plekanec on the ice, both of whom will be vastly superior offensively, and Plekanec already is.

Moreover, if DD is the third line center, it means Plekanec and Galchenyuk will have to play more on defense, tiring them and further reducing their offensive capacity.

Conversely, when Eller is at defense, playing on the PK and in shutdown in the dzone against elite players like Seguin and Crosby, Plekanec and Galchenyuk are liberated to play offense, because Eller does shutdown effectively. The defense is taken care of, and offensive output is maximized, for a positive value-added.

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:19 PM
  #727
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If we're gonna get rid of a shrimp it should be Gio not DD then Eller could move to wing and boom problem solved with 5 mil more cap space.

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:22 PM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
People hate it so much that Pacioretty has DD in high esteem and wants to play with him. They will find any excuses and will use anything to dismiss these comments. It's hilarious to see the blind hatred, to see people hoping for DD to fail.

I personally love it.
One time, Pacioretty said he would rather play top-6 in Hamilton than bottom-6 in Montreal, and the overwhelming majority of the fanbase wanted to crucify him and trade him for peanuts.

Since then, he's been very politically correct. He only says positive things.

As for DD, nobody hates him as far as I can tell. It's just clear to a lot of people he doesn't contribute positive value-added as a top-6 center, long-term.

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02-23-2013, 04:35 PM
  #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
One time, Pacioretty said he would rather play top-6 in Hamilton than bottom-6 in Montreal, and the overwhelming majority of the fanbase wanted to crucify him and trade him for peanuts.

Since then, he's been very politically correct. He only says positive things.

As for DD, nobody hates him as far as I can tell. It's just clear to a lot of people he doesn't contribute positive value-added as a top-6 center, long-term.
There's a huge difference between politically correct and what Pacioretty has said about DD.

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02-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
Since DD is only capable of playing offense (that could change), he thus contributes a negative value-added, because whenever he is on the ice at center, this means that we won't have Galchenyuk or Plekanec on the ice, both of whom will be vastly superior offensively, and Plekanec already is.
I'm a Plekanec fan but he's not close to being ''vastly superior offensively'' to Desharnais.

I'm sure you're just angry because having a lot of good options and depth at center goes against your strategy of surgical tanking

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:46 PM
  #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I'm a Plekanec fan but he's not close to being ''vastly superior offensively'' to Desharnais.
He's a better offensive player.

What does "vast" mean? What I mean by "vast" is that in the same situation, having Plekanec on the ice will likely lead to an increase in the team +/- of 10 or more goals over the year. Plekanec has more speed, a better shot, and better puck distribution skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I'm sure you're just angry because having a lot of good options and depth at center goes against your strategy of surgical tanking
Nothing to do with it.

I think the main reasons for the improvements in the team are:
1) An absence of injuries (not expected, not predictable even in hindsight)
2) superior coaching from Therrien (not expected, but predictable in hindsight)
3) Emergence of Galchenyuk (not expected, but predictable.)
4) Emergence of Gallagher (not expected, and nobody on these boards predicted that for this year)
5) Bourque's rise compensating for the fall of Cole. (not expected, but people were predicting a strong cole and a weak bourque which is equivalent).
6) Gomez buyout (predictable, expected, and I failed to account for it). Gomez sucked and the 14 minutes he played per game were handicapping the team.

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:48 PM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
What does "vast" mean?
Vast: Of very great extent or quantity.

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:57 PM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Vast: Of very great extent or quantity.
i.e. an additional 10 points a season which was explicitly stated in the part of my post that you didn't quote, that directly followed what you did quote.


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02-23-2013, 05:43 PM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
i.e. an additional 10 points a season which was explicitly stated in the part of my post that you didn't quote, that directly followed what you did quote.

I was just posting the definition.. Although I don't think 10 points is a vast difference. A vast difference to me would be 20-25 points.

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02-23-2013, 05:50 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
He's not going to be dealt this season but if Gally can keep up his production, it will come down to Eller, Pleks or DD. DD is the odd man out in this case. When we had Koivu we did not have the depth we have today at center, different situation IMO.
he is the oddman out

u cant win with him in your top 6 , and come playoff time , he cant be a bottom 6 cause he has no size , strength , and is not a banger or checker

u need kelly and peverly types , who play an all round 2 way game dd cant play the game on a bottom 6 .MOVE ON

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02-23-2013, 06:00 PM
  #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
he is the oddman out

u cant win with him in your top 6
, and come playoff time , he cant be a bottom 6 cause he has no size , strength , and is not a banger or checker

u need kelly and peverly types , who play an all round 2 way game dd cant play the game on a bottom 6 .MOVE ON
Of course you can. It's seldom a good idea to use absolute terms like these.

It depends how your team is built and how much cap space DD occupies. Maybe a large part of your salary cap is tied in the goalie and defense and you don't have much left for the forwards. In that case a guy like DD can have a positive contribution on the team by being a better candidate to fill that spot than others due to his cap hit being lower because he has obvious limitations.

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02-23-2013, 06:05 PM
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
One time, Pacioretty said he would rather play top-6 in Hamilton than bottom-6 in Montreal, and the overwhelming majority of the fanbase wanted to crucify him and trade him for peanuts.
Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Quote:
Since then, he's been very politically correct. He only says positive things.
Maybe he has always been PC but this one time he was upset (justifiably) ? Whatever, I think you're being delusional about this. Pacioretty isn't being PC here, he's heaping praises on DD when he really doesn't need to.

Quote:
As for DD, nobody hates him as far as I can tell. It's just clear to a lot of people he doesn't contribute positive value-added as a top-6 center, long-term.
Hehe, a ton of people hate him and think he's only there because he speaks french. As I said above, he can contribute positively to the team, it all depends how you allocate your cap room and how much DD is making. If there's an understanding that DD isn't worth your typical 60 pts centerman salary, then he can certainly be a valuable part. You give tougher minutes to Plek and Galchenyuk, and DD's line steps in and destroys weaker opposition. It's nice to have offense coming from multiple lines.

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:40 PM
  #738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Hehe, a ton of people hate him and think he's only there because he speaks french.
That might be.

Honestly, when racists start pontificating I often just tune out. I could be seeing 50 posts a day making that claim and not notice them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As I said above, he can contribute positively to the team, it all depends how you allocate your cap room and how much DD is making. If there's an understanding that DD isn't worth your typical 60 pts centerman salary, then he can certainly be a valuable part. You give tougher minutes to Plek and the Galchenyuk, and DD's line steps in and destroys weaker opposition. It's nice to have offense coming from multiple lines.
As I ssee it, DD can:

- Be a shootout specialist
- Provide depth offense
- Be a passable top-2 center for the upcoming Galchenyuk-Plekanec era during the inevitable 20 games a year when one of the two will be out with injury.
- Play for under 2 million a year.

So all in all, not bad. I think that's a lot of value-added if he plays in that role, compared to the value-subtracted if he's a top-6 center semi-permanently. I think if we can make him a winger, we have more room for him. Most of the shortest forwards in the NHL are winger. And he was a decent addition to the Gomez-Gionta line in the 2011 playoffs.

Desharnais and Gallagher would be two offensive smurfs on the team, however if you add Gionta that's 3, plus Collberg, Kristo are both 5'11" and will be here by the start of 2014-2015.

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Old
02-27-2013, 09:57 AM
  #739
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Does Desharnais Have a Future With The Habs?

Given that we have Pleks, Eller, Gally and Leblanc in the pipeline, do we really have the space to keep another undersized skilled centre?

Eller is showing he's taken his game to the next level and can perform at a higher level when given the opportunity. Galchenyuk has been a Godsent and shown he can play in the NHL, ready for prime time? probably not yet but can easily slot in the 2 or 3 spot. Plex has shown that given some consitent, talented wingers, he's a top 2 centreman and continues to be a beast in every situation.

Does keeping DD hinder Eller as Gomez was doing in the 2 previous years. Does he warrant a long term commitment from the Habs or would his money be spent better elswhere?

Personally, I'd see what we can get at the deadline or before the draft for DD and let the kids start taking a regular spot at centre where they play best.

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Old
02-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #740
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To me he's expendible after this year only because Galchenyuk will soon enough be able to do what he does without the weaknesses, but unless we get something of value for him in a trade, I'd rather bring him back if his wage demands are fair (which I suspect they will be). He's our best pure offensive zone playmaker right now and our best SO specialist, I still want to see him on the wings though.

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02-27-2013, 10:18 AM
  #741
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If he wants more than 2.5million send him packing

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02-27-2013, 10:20 AM
  #742
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There are things a small guy can't do and we have too many small guys assuming Gallagher is here to stay. Either DD or Gionta should go IMO.

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02-27-2013, 10:20 AM
  #743
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I'd keep him. He has the best passing skills on the team.

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02-27-2013, 10:21 AM
  #744
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Yay, another DD debate.

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02-27-2013, 10:21 AM
  #745
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He's a good player and productive, but probably has low asset value around the league. So just like he feels a little sub-optimal to us, he isn't going to pull in any interesting return from elsewhere either, probably. Therefore, I'd keep him around rather than take a poor return. Better to have too many center options than too few.

But at the same time, since he's not necessarily crucial to us or anything, he's an easy target to play hardball with on his contract. Bergevin could play hardball with Subban, after all. I wouldn't give Desharnais anything more than Subban's deal. Sub-$3M cap hit. If DD isn't up for that, he doesn't have a future here.

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02-27-2013, 10:21 AM
  #746
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Yeah I guess, but he'll have to accept his 3rd centerman role behind Plekanec and Galchenyuk

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02-27-2013, 10:22 AM
  #747
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I can see scenarios where they keep him, and let him go. I personally don't think they will keep him long term.

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Old
02-27-2013, 10:29 AM
  #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Given that we have Pleks, Eller, Gally and Leblanc in the pipeline, do we really have the space to keep another undersized skilled centre?

Eller is showing he's taken his game to the next level and can perform at a higher level when given the opportunity. Galchenyuk has been a Godsent and shown he can play in the NHL, ready for prime time? probably not yet but can easily slot in the 2 or 3 spot. Plex has shown that given some consitent, talented wingers, he's a top 2 centreman and continues to be a beast in every situation.

Does keeping DD hinder Eller as Gomez was doing in the 2 previous years. Does he warrant a long term commitment from the Habs or would his money be spent better elswhere?

Personally, I'd see what we can get at the deadline or before the draft for DD and let the kids start taking a regular spot at centre where they play best.
DD is our only "undersized" center. Plekanec is about average sized(weight) for an NHL center.

I don't think it's conclusive one way or another if he is here long term. I could see scenarios where he stays and scenarios where he is moved. How he plays the next 2 months will no doubt be a factor.

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Old
02-27-2013, 10:49 AM
  #749
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i don't see a contract more than 2 years for him, Plekanec is sign for long term and Gally or Eller will take the place of DD on the top 2 center

so the questions are Does the Habs wants to play him on the third line and a whats gonna be the asking price ?

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02-27-2013, 10:51 AM
  #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
DD is our only "undersized" center. Plekanec is about average sized(weight) for an NHL center.

I don't think it's conclusive one way or another if he is here long term. I could see scenarios where he stays and scenarios where he is moved. How he plays the next 2 months will no doubt be a factor.
Nothing is cut in stone at this moment. I do think going forward that have bigger, skilled centres is more advantageous than smaller ones in the current NHL.

I'd say Plex, Chucky and Eller as our top 3 looks better than Plex, DD, Eller imo.

I guess the point I'm trying to make more than anything else is that Eventually, Galchenyuk and Eller will counted on as primary centres on this team. Plex is far superior than DD and as such he doesn't fall into a spot in the near term future. As such, why not trade him now while he's afforable and we can get something significant in return, if possible. If not, I'm more than happy with the current situation and his role in the line up right now. I was thinking more in the next couple of years assuming Galchenyuk and Eller continue to progress.

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