HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-23-2013, 03:14 PM
  #151
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,967
vCash: 500
One of: Beliveau, Hull, Hasek, Jagr.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 03:30 PM
  #152
MrFunnyWobbl
Show Me Your TDs
 
MrFunnyWobbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unlocated
Country: Umm al-Qaiwan
Posts: 18,495
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to MrFunnyWobbl
Jagr?

MrFunnyWobbl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 03:50 PM
  #153
fly4apuckguy
Mr. Old School
 
fly4apuckguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveott View Post
this is all about EDM inflation. take a look at Glenn Anderson stats and you will understand...

he was 60 pts player after leaving EDM (before DPE)
Had nothing to do with age or a changing game, of course.

fly4apuckguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 03:51 PM
  #154
alpine4life
Registered User
 
alpine4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moncton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
One of: Beliveau, Hull, Hasek, Jagr.
Beliveau, Hull, Richard if you ask me

alpine4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 03:53 PM
  #155
AD1066
Registered User
 
AD1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
I think it's obvious. Take the Euros out of the NHL and North American stars would have more top-10 finishes.
I agree, here's the top ten in scoring since the lockout with and without Euros.

With:

689: Ovechkin
674: Thornton
634: Crosby
616: H. Sedin
615: St. Louis
596: Kovalchuk
584: D. Sedin
582: Datsyuk
580: Iginla
570: Heatley

Without:

674: Thornton
634: Crosby
615: St. Louis
580: Iginla
570: Heatley
561: E. Staal
545: Spezza
531: Lecavalier
520: Marleau
516: B. Richards

AD1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:00 PM
  #156
AD1066
Registered User
 
AD1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,430
vCash: 500
Best post-lockout single seasons, with and without Euros:

With:

1. Thornton 125 pts (05-06)
2. Jagr 123 pts (05-06)
3. Crosby 120 pts (06-07)
4. Thornton 114 pts (06-07)
5. Malkin 113 pts (08-09)
6. Ovechkin 112 pts (07-08)
7. H. Sedin 112 pts (09-10)
8. Ovechkin 110 pts (08-09)
9. Crosby 109 pts (09-10)
10. Malkin 109 pts (11-12)
(T)10. Ovechkin 109 pts (09-10)

Without:

1. Thornton 125 pts (05-06)
2. Crosby 120 pts (06-07)
3. Thornton 114 pts (06-07)
4. Crosby 109 pts (09-10)
5. Lecavalier 108 pts (06-07)
6. Heatley 105 pts (05-06)
7. Crosby 103 pts (08-09)
8. Crosby 102 pts (05-06)
9. St. Louis 102 pts (06-07)
10. Sakic 100 pts (06-07)

AD1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:33 PM
  #157
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,687
vCash: 500
Beliveau, Harvey, or Hull.

You could make a case for Bourque or Shore. Rocket and Jagr don't belong. I wouldn't put Roy or Hasek in the top five either.

Nobody else should be mentioned. Mikita and Lidstrom aren't quite there, and Messier's not even the 5th best center of all time. Yzerman coming up is also strange.

Rob Scuderi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:34 PM
  #158
3rdEye
@HawnzDynasty
 
3rdEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: CoRD's house
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,667
vCash: 50
Lidstrom IMO.

3rdEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:40 PM
  #159
Windy River
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 375
vCash: 500
Jagr

Windy River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:41 PM
  #160
unifiedtheory
Twitter: @ut_pez
 
unifiedtheory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Burnaby, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,180
vCash: 500
The Hockey News Top 10:

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk
10.Eddie Shore

My Top 10:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Mario Lemiuex
4. Maurice Richard
5. Doug Harvey
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Gordie Howe
8. Dominic Hasek
9. Jaromir Jagr
10. Martin Broduer

I'm a homer, I always put Bobby Orr ahead of Wayne. Just personal preference. I put Howe a little down the list because I think Richard was more dominant, Harvey is second only too Orr in defenseman and Jean Beliveau while not having the pure numbers Howe has, was a key member of 10 Cup wins. 10. Ridiculous.

I move Jagr into the top 10 because of numbers and pure dominance. I believe Hasek and Marty are the two greatest goaltenders to ever play. Goaltenders belong in the top 10.

Just missed: Niklas Lidstrom, Patrick Roy, Mike Bossy, Raymond Bourque, Bobby Hull.

Lidstrom is #11. I don't think being considered the 3rd best defenseman to ever play the sport is a bad thing. Roy is just behind Hasek and Marty. Hasek was the most dominant player in the sport for a decade, Roy just never dominated the way Hasek did in my opinion. Bossy is the greatest pure goal scorer ever. Bourque is in the same group with Lidstrom, Shore and Potvin as "just behind" Orr and Harvey. Bobby Hull was Bossy before Bossy.

unifiedtheory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:43 PM
  #161
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
The Hockey News Top 10:

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk
10.Eddie Shore

My Top 10:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Mario Lemiuex
4. Maurice Richard
5. Doug Harvey
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Gordie Howe
8. Dominic Hasek
9. Jaromir Jagr
10. Martin Broduer

I'm a homer, I always put Bobby Orr ahead of Wayne. Just personal preference. I put Howe a little down the list because I think Richard was more dominant, Harvey is second only too Orr in defenseman and Jean Beliveau while not having the pure numbers Howe has, was a key member of 10 Cup wins. 10. Ridiculous.

I move Jagr into the top 10 because of numbers and pure dominance. I believe Hasek and Marty are the two greatest goaltenders to ever play. Goaltenders belong in the top 10.

Just missed: Niklas Lidstrom, Patrick Roy, Mike Bossy, Raymond Bourque, Bobby Hull.

Lidstrom is #11. I don't think being considered the 3rd best defenseman to ever play the sport is a bad thing. Roy is just behind Hasek and Marty. Hasek was the most dominant player in the sport for a decade, Roy just never dominated the way Hasek did in my opinion. Bossy is the greatest pure goal scorer ever. Bourque is in the same group with Lidstrom, Shore and Potvin as "just behind" Orr and Harvey. Bobby Hull was Bossy before Bossy.
Howe won the same number of Art Ross Trophies as Mario Lemieux. Richard won 0.

Rob Scuderi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:44 PM
  #162
msrulo
Registered User
 
msrulo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 류경6
Country: North Korea
Posts: 2,565
vCash: 500
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Gordie Howe
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Bobby Orr
5. Nick Lidstrom (suits his jersey number)

msrulo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 04:49 PM
  #163
FlyingPantherExtreme
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 304
vCash: 500
It is jags for sure. You cant argue with those rosses

FlyingPantherExtreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 05:28 PM
  #164
TAnnala
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 10,089
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
I agree with this in spirit but Selanne shoudn't be in this conversation. He was a great player and has the longevity but he was never the best in the game. Not even close.

It's debatable whether he is even top 50.
No it is not. He is around 70 at best.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 05:38 PM
  #165
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,121
vCash: 500
If it's NHL-only and we can't count Bobby Hull's WHA years, I think the case for Beliveau becomes stronger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Beliveau, Harvey, or Hull.

You could make a case for Bourque or Shore. Rocket and Jagr don't belong. I wouldn't put Roy or Hasek in the top five either.

Nobody else should be mentioned. Mikita and Lidstrom aren't quite there, and Messier's not even the 5th best center of all time. Yzerman coming up is also strange.
Without counting Hull's WHA years, Richard beats him in longevity. I don't know why you think Harvey belongs, but Richard doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Howe won the same number of Art Ross Trophies as Mario Lemieux. Richard won 0.
If we're looking at points only:

Bobby Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
Maurice Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Remove equal finishes and you have:

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 9
Richard, 2, 2, 3, 3

Obviously this ignores Hull's WHA career.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 05:39 PM
  #166
BamBamCam*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle/Boston
Country: Ireland
Posts: 1,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
Except Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman ever to play. So its like you picking Dolph Schayes in the NBA because he was great in the 50s over Kobe because Kobe is too recent.
He is? I think Bourque, Potvin, Harvey, Shore have something to say about that statement.

BamBamCam* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 05:46 PM
  #167
Senor Catface
Registered User
 
Senor Catface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: Nepal
Posts: 6,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveott View Post
this is all about EDM inflation. take a look at Glenn Anderson stats and you will understand...

he was 60 pts player after leaving EDM (before DPE)
If you just look at hockeydb, you see it has nothing to do with him playing on Edmonton or not, and simply his natural decline of out of his offensive prime.

Edmonton 88-89 64 points
Edmonton 89-90 72 points
Edmonton 90-91 55 points
Toronto 91-92 57 points
Toronto 92-93 65 points

If you look at that, that version of Anderson (that of an aging offensive player on the decline) stays the same, depending on if he's on Edmonton or not. That was simply the player he was at the time.

Senor Catface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 05:49 PM
  #168
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,069
vCash: 500
i could flip-flop between harvey and beliveau all day. bobby hull is the clear #7 for me.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:13 PM
  #169
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 24,640
vCash: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by unifiedtheory View Post
The Hockey News Top 10:

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk
10.Eddie Shore

My Top 10:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Mario Lemiuex
4. Maurice Richard
5. Doug Harvey
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Gordie Howe
8. Dominic Hasek
9. Jaromir Jagr
10. Martin Broduer

I'm a homer, I always put Bobby Orr ahead of Wayne. Just personal preference. I put Howe a little down the list because I think Richard was more dominant, Harvey is second only too Orr in defenseman and Jean Beliveau while not having the pure numbers Howe has, was a key member of 10 Cup wins. 10. Ridiculous.

I move Jagr into the top 10 because of numbers and pure dominance. I believe Hasek and Marty are the two greatest goaltenders to ever play. Goaltenders belong in the top 10.

Just missed: Niklas Lidstrom, Patrick Roy, Mike Bossy, Raymond Bourque, Bobby Hull.

Lidstrom is #11. I don't think being considered the 3rd best defenseman to ever play the sport is a bad thing. Roy is just behind Hasek and Marty. Hasek was the most dominant player in the sport for a decade, Roy just never dominated the way Hasek did in my opinion. Bossy is the greatest pure goal scorer ever. Bourque is in the same group with Lidstrom, Shore and Potvin as "just behind" Orr and Harvey. Bobby Hull was Bossy before Bossy.
Howe was more dominant and for much longer. Howe was top ten in scoring twenty times. Most players are lucky to player 20 years in the NHL yet, Howe dominated for over 20 years. He had no weaknesses. He was physical, great playoff performer and a great two way player.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:24 PM
  #170
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Howe was more dominant and for much longer. Howe was top ten in scoring twenty times. Most players are lucky to player 20 years in the NHL yet, Howe dominated for over 20 years. He had no weaknesses. He was physical, great playoff performer and a great two way player.
furthermore, he was top 5 in scoring 19 consecutive times, top 3 twelve times, top 1 in scoring six times.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 06:26 PM
  #171
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Howe was more dominant and for much longer. Howe was top ten in scoring twenty times. Most players are lucky to player 20 years in the NHL yet, Howe dominated for over 20 years. He had no weaknesses. He was physical, great playoff performer and a great two way player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
furthermore, he was top 5 in scoring 19 consecutive times, top 3 twelve times, top 1 in scoring six times.
Yeah, I don't take any list that doesn't have Howe in the top 4 seriously. I think of the traditional "top 4," Mario is the only one with a case to drop out, but to do that, you really have to put a huge emphasis on durability and longevity.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 08:15 PM
  #172
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
Best post-lockout single seasons, with and without Euros:

With:

1. Thornton 125 pts (05-06)
2. Jagr 123 pts (05-06)
3. Crosby 120 pts (06-07)
4. Thornton 114 pts (06-07)
5. Malkin 113 pts (08-09)
6. Ovechkin 112 pts (07-08)
7. H. Sedin 112 pts (09-10)
8. Ovechkin 110 pts (08-09)
9. Crosby 109 pts (09-10)
10. Malkin 109 pts (11-12)
(T)10. Ovechkin 109 pts (09-10)

Without:

1. Thornton 125 pts (05-06)
2. Crosby 120 pts (06-07)
3. Thornton 114 pts (06-07)
4. Crosby 109 pts (09-10)
5. Lecavalier 108 pts (06-07)
6. Heatley 105 pts (05-06)
7. Crosby 103 pts (08-09)
8. Crosby 102 pts (05-06)
9. St. Louis 102 pts (06-07)
10. Sakic 100 pts (06-07)
Interestingly enough Sid is on pace (if one prorates his pace) to finish with 113 points over an 82 game season (25 points in 17 of the 48 game season) and would have 5 of the top 10 Canadian finishes since the lockout at 2,4,5,8,9 and that's with 2 injury shortened seasons to boot.

He isn't even close to the top 5 yet, as I'm a career guy but if he can stay healthy he is making a strong case.

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 08:31 PM
  #173
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, I don't take any list that doesn't have Howe in the top 4 seriously. I think of the traditional "top 4," Mario is the only one with a case to drop out, but to do that, you really have to put a huge emphasis on durability and longevity.
I agree with this and like to separate forwards from Dmen but seriously Howe is in the top 3 plain and simple, no matter what metric anyone uses.

As for the 5th guy there are probably 10 guys in the mix for that spot if we include goalies and Dmen as well as forwards.

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 09:00 PM
  #174
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
If you just look at hockeydb, you see it has nothing to do with him playing on Edmonton or not, and simply his natural decline of out of his offensive prime.

Edmonton 88-89 64 points
Edmonton 89-90 72 points
Edmonton 90-91 55 points
Toronto 91-92 57 points
Toronto 92-93 65 points

If you look at that, that version of Anderson (that of an aging offensive player on the decline) stays the same, depending on if he's on Edmonton or not. That was simply the player he was at the time.
That decline actually correlates precisely with the departure of Gretzky.

Fish on The Sand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2013, 10:24 PM
  #175
Rob Scuderi
Registered User
 
Rob Scuderi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 2,687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If it's NHL-only and we can't count Bobby Hull's WHA years, I think the case for Beliveau becomes stronger.



Without counting Hull's WHA years, Richard beats him in longevity. I don't know why you think Harvey belongs, but Richard doesn't.
I just don't see Richard distancing himself from Jagr, outside of the playoffs. And I don't think Jagr should really be considered top 5.

I think Harvey has as good a case as anyone as the second best defender and he and Bourque have pretty solid cases as number 5. They were the best at their position for such great lengths of time.


Quote:
If we're looking at points only:

Bobby Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
Maurice Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Remove equal finishes and you have:

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 9
Richard, 2, 2, 3, 3

Obviously this ignores Hull's WHA career.
I wasn't ignoring WHA (but should have been), I guess if you do it's closer. Either way Hull fares better in Vs2 scores which I have the benefit of looking at via the ATD. Richard's best 6 vs2 seasons aren't really better than Lindsay's. I just think there's a small but noticeable gap between he and Hull, and throw in Jagr and I think it's safe to have Richard outside the top 5.

Rob Scuderi is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.