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Old
02-23-2013, 11:09 AM
  #76
Lebowski
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
This is so full of WRONG.

Simmoonds is a 20-20....except he had 29 goals last year. And this year is on a 31-35 pace. Maybe he is just becoming better????

Talbot is Begin 2.0 at best....except that Begin had 1 season of 12 goals or more and had 6 seasons of ZERO goals. Talbot has 4 seasons of 12 or more goals already.

Diaz is a #5 D-man that is good on the PP.
Oh, so Vanek is on pace for 121 points. Maybe he's just getting better? All I'm saying is that I'm not sold on Simmonds offensive abilities yet.

Talbot is a glorified 4rd liner that gets way too much ice time, which is why his numbers are slightly inflated. Also, I'm not sure from where you're pulling this goal statistic for Begin (probably out of your ass), but he has a grand total of 3 seasons with 0 goal, seasons in which he has a cumulated 11 games played.

Had you watched some Habs games this season, Diaz has been a big reason why our D has done so good up to now. Not only that, but he's also helping out offensively. The way he plays right now, he'd be the best defenseman for Philly.

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Old
02-23-2013, 11:59 AM
  #77
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That's such a cop out though.

You can pretty much say any player, who realistically still has room to grow, has the potential to become any player of a similar play style.
Incorrect. While you can SAY such a thing, if there is nothing being done by the player to prove it, then you are actually "copping out" or simply speculating. However, you can say that about a young player who is DEMONSTRATING that he can develop into the comparable player IF the youngster is actually PRODUCING. It is not a "cop out", it is a COMPARABLE using relevant statistics combined with playing style. It is done by amateurs and professionals all the time. How else are you supposed to make judgements about players? I also seem to recall a certain "writer" comparing JvR to Leclair when arguing how impossible it would be for the Flyers to trade JvR. Out of curiosity, when fans of other teams try and demonstrate that Couturier isn't that great, do you agree or try and use his skill set, style of play, and statistics to compare him to certain successful veterans as a way of showing what you believe he will become to explain why the Flyers shouldn't trade him? I am fairly certain that has been done...

So, saying Diaz has shown enough to make us believe he can develop into a Rafalski type of defenceman, based on the success he has had over the last year and change, is not a "cop out", it is a fair and useful comparable when trying to establish his trade value. Just like some people claimed JvR was "untouchable" and was going to be the next best thing to hit the Flyers a couple of years ago did with certain comparisons based on a short sample of play and a certain draft position... It is amazing how views can be...adjusted...depending upon which side of the fence a person is trying to argue from...lol.

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Old
02-23-2013, 12:33 PM
  #78
greenstickytoes
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Originally Posted by EveryDay View Post
Wtf???? Diaz do not compare to Rafalski at all!!!!!!! he's WAY better

No deal for sure from Flyers!!!! Simmonds hold more value then Diaz + Eller IMHO
i love how you overrate Simmonds so bad...
the guy had a career high of 49pts in his whole 4 year career
and thats playing with good teams especially the flyers..
i would never give a defensemen like diaz playing extremely well
right now plus a younger bigger centermen prospect like Eller which can do
everything that Simmonds can and prob more
since hes a centermen.. Flyers refusing a deal like this
would ONLY be because of preference and not because of value.
if we talk value, montreal is getting robbed in this trade especially
if Eller becomes what he is supposed to, which looks like he will
just by how well he is playing this season showing major progression year
after year.
right now i would hesitate even if you told me Simmonds for only Diaz..
Diaz progression is amazing. if he continues like this i dont even
want to see ''simmonds'' in the same sentence as ''diaz''.
keep your winger and we will keep our defencemen and good luck
for the season bud.

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Old
02-23-2013, 12:38 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
As a habs fan I gotta tell you that teams are never gonna give that much for Markov. I think you would be lucky to get Simmonds alone, Voracek alone or a first alone. Would you give our first this year and a promising young player for a 34 year old with his injury history like Markov's? I think it would be a steal to get Simmonds alone but i really doubt Holmgren would do that.
Just in-line with what we got for Rivet? A first pick and a young player. Gorges was 23 at the time on par with a Voracek. Maybe not a Simmonds but Rivet no Markov either.

Philly isn't going to get a top pairing d-man cheap. Not one signed anyway.

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02-23-2013, 01:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
Just in-line with what we got for Rivet? A first pick and a young player. Gorges was 23 at the time on par with a Voracek. Maybe not a Simmonds but Rivet no Markov either.

Philly isn't going to get a top pairing d-man cheap. Not one signed anyway.
No, they aren't. But Markov can only be argued to be a top pair D-man when he plays, which isn't often. He certainly doesn't carry that value for this reason.

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02-23-2013, 02:05 PM
  #81
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I see Matt Reid and Raphael Diaz as having similar value. Both are trying to prove themselves this season. Diaz is having a remarkable season and leading Habs dmen in points and plus/minus, Read is one of the Flyers best forwards this season (before the injury).

Both players are roughly the same age and late bloomers. Both have similar size.

Diaz for Read straight up. No one adds.

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:07 PM
  #82
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We're weak at wing and Simmonds is one of the most well rounded and consistent players on our team.

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:26 PM
  #83
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2nd Gordie Howe hat-trick in 3 games for Simmonds.

He's not for sale.

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:57 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I see Matt Reid and Raphael Diaz as having similar value. Both are trying to prove themselves this season. Diaz is having a remarkable season and leading Habs dmen in points and plus/minus, Read is one of the Flyers best forwards this season (before the injury).

Both players are roughly the same age and late bloomers. Both have similar size.

Diaz for Read straight up. No one adds.
Flyers easily not taking that one. Diaz is having a great first season but so is read this season..except read had a tremendous last season also. He can play at any forward postion on any line and play pp and pk. Flyers cant give up a player like that.

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02-23-2013, 03:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Flyers easily not taking that one. Diaz is having a great first season but so is read this season..except read had a tremendous last season also. He can play at any forward postion on any line and play pp and pk. Flyers cant give up a player like that.
Diaz played last year as well. He can also play on any pair and has been playing first wave PP and PK.

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
Diaz played last year as well. He can also play on any pair and has been playing first wave PP and PK.
Alright well i dont know any flyers fan accepting this trade. Reads too important for this team.

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Old
02-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Alright well i dont know any flyers fan accepting this trade. Reads too important for this team.
Seems like anyone of any real use is to important to your team. Diaz is a keeper which you wouldn't get for Read straight up. Were in the same position as Philly where your not going to get a Subban, Diaz, Georges, Emelin for picks or prospects. If you wish to fill a need you may have to deal from a position of strength.

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Old
02-23-2013, 05:02 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I see Matt Reid and Raphael Diaz as having similar value. Both are trying to prove themselves this season. Diaz is having a remarkable season and leading Habs dmen in points and plus/minus, Read is one of the Flyers best forwards this season (before the injury).

Both players are roughly the same age and late bloomers. Both have similar size.

Diaz for Read straight up. No one adds.
I feel like that's a pretty fair deal, but it doesn't really do anything for the Flyers. They need a true #1 defenseman, not another top-4 guy. Not saying they'll get that for Read, but at this point the Flyers need Read more than a guy like Diaz.

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02-23-2013, 06:27 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
i love how you overrate Simmonds so bad...
the guy had a career high of 49pts in his whole 4 year career
and thats playing with good teams especially the flyers..
i would never give a defensemen like diaz playing extremely well
right now plus a younger bigger centermen prospect like Eller which can do
everything that Simmonds can and prob more
since hes a centermen.
. Flyers refusing a deal like this
would ONLY be because of preference and not because of value.
if we talk value, montreal is getting robbed in this trade especially
if Eller becomes what he is supposed to, which looks like he will
just by how well he is playing this season showing major progression year
after year.
right now i would hesitate even if you told me Simmonds for only Diaz..
Diaz progression is amazing. if he continues like this i dont even
want to see ''simmonds'' in the same sentence as ''diaz''.
keep your winger and we will keep our defencemen and good luck
for the season bud.
Go watch the last 3 Flyers games and tell me that Eller is anywhere near the type and level of player that Simmonds is. Simmonds>>>Eller...and it's not debatable

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02-23-2013, 06:40 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I see Matt Reid and Raphael Diaz as having similar value. Both are trying to prove themselves this season. Diaz is having a remarkable season and leading Habs dmen in points and plus/minus, Read is one of the Flyers best forwards this season (before the injury).

Both players are roughly the same age and late bloomers. Both have similar size.

Diaz for Read straight up. No one adds.
That's actually EXTREMELY reasonable.

I could see it helping both teams significantly.

Unfortunately, Read is sidelined for the next month and a half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
Go watch the last 3 Flyers games and tell me that Eller is anywhere near the type and level of player that Simmonds is. Simmonds>>>Eller...and it's not debatable
Yeah, it's really not even close. Simmonds is on his own planet right now. He's never going to be a PPG weapon or anything like that, but he is definitely a force of willpower and energy. Players like him don't just grow on trees.

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:51 PM
  #91
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How long till We stop calling Eller a prospect and pretending he has a chance to be more then a second liner? He's played two full seasons. He had 28 points last year, and forgive me, but when I watch him I'm not seeing tons of untapped potential. He's a solid young NHL player. Might hit 50 points once or twice in his prime, maybe. That's what he is.


Greenstickytoes: Wayne Simmonds had as many goals last year as Eller had points.

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:14 PM
  #92
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That's actually EXTREMELY reasonable.

I could see it helping both teams significantly.

Unfortunately, Read is sidelined for the next month and a half.



Yeah, it's really not even close. Simmonds is on his own planet right now. He's never going to be a PPG weapon or anything like that, but he is definitely a force of willpower and energy. Players like him don't just grow on trees.
Actually, Read for Diaz is only reasonable in a vacuum. In reality, Montreal does not want another small skilled forward, we have enough. Montreal needs a Simmonds type far more than a Read type. There is absolutely no interest in moving Diaz for Read, especially with Read being injured. We need size and if Diaz continues to play as well as he has, he will easily be worth far more than Matt Read by the trade deadline. Matt Read isn't even as valuable as David Desharnais, and you should see the peanuts people claim he is worth.

Simmonds is definitely better than Eller, so far. However, I think the gap is smaller than many might realize. Eller has been hampered by playing behind Plekanec and DD, and will also have Galchenyuk eating center time from him. Watch Eller play, and you will see that he is far better than his numbers indicate (go watch the work he did on the Habs' third goal tonight to see the kind of player he is). Sort of like Couturier. Out of curiosity, who do you think is more valuable to Philly, Simmonds or Couturier?

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:24 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Actually, Read for Diaz is only reasonable in a vacuum. In reality, Montreal does not want another small skilled forward, we have enough. Montreal needs a Simmonds type far more than a Read type. There is absolutely no interest in moving Diaz for Read, especially with Read being injured. We need size and if Diaz continues to play as well as he has, he will easily be worth far more than Matt Read by the trade deadline. Matt Read isn't even as valuable as David Desharnais, and you should see the peanuts people claim he is worth.
Matt Read is like a weird hybrid of Simon Gagne and Danny Briere.

I won't claim to know all about David Desharnais, but Read is a very capable (and looking to be consistent) 50 point winger/center.

Don't do Read any disservice. With the right linemates he could hit 60-65 in a peak year. Desharnais value seems reasonable, but I'm not up on Desharnais' game style. I don't notice him much when I watch Montreal games. Read is fast, defensively responsible, and chips in offense. You can't ask for much more.

He's the prototypical 2nd line winger, just like Diaz seems to be evolving into that solid #3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Simmonds is definitely better than Eller, so far. However, I think the gap is smaller than many might realize. Eller has been hampered by playing behind Plekanec and DD, and will also have Galchenyuk eating center time from him. Watch Eller play, and you will see that he is far better than his numbers indicate (go watch the work he did on the Habs' third goal tonight to see the kind of player he is). Sort of like Couturier. Out of curiosity, who do you think is more valuable to Philly, Simmonds or Couturier?
Right now it's a very reasonable argument that Simmonds is OUR BEST PLAYER. Giroux, when on his game, is on another level as we all know, but what Simmonds has is unique. I think the gap between him and Eller is pretty large. I don't think it's arguable in any way. Some people don't realize just how good Simmonds is. It's not about points. He makes things happen. Like how Giroux makes things happen with his playmaking, Simmonds makes things happens with his stop-at-nothing play style. Seriously, I'm comparing Simmonds' ability to make things happen with Giroux's ability to get the puck to anyone anywhere at anytime. It's that awesome to watch.

Simmonds vs. Couturier is a really hard argument. Couturier, right now, is all potential offensively, but he's arguably the best defensive player on the team right now including Timonen/Coburn/Schenn.

Simmonds vs. Couturier in terms of importance to the Flyers is slanted slightly towards Simmonds right now. A few years from now, when Couts' offense comes in, he'll probably overtake Simmonds slightly.

I put Simmonds above Hartnell, Voracek, Briere, Read, and Schenn. Schenn and Voracek though want a say in this though and have their own arguments to make as far as importance.

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Old
02-23-2013, 08:27 PM
  #94
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Lets remember that Diaz is playing with Markov and Markov is making him look good just like Markov made Komi look good. If Diaz wasn't playing with Markov would he still be just as good or be another Komi.

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02-23-2013, 08:30 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Out of curiosity, who do you think is more valuable to Philly, Simmonds or Couturier?
I know this wasn't directed towards me, but right now? Simmonds. Cooter is playing excellent 2-way hockey, but the snarl that Simmer brings has been huge for this club. Maybe in a year or two Cooter will be more valuable to the Flyers, but not right now. Just my 2 cents though, and I'm sure many will disagree!

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02-23-2013, 08:54 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I see Matt Reid and Raphael Diaz as having similar value. Both are trying to prove themselves this season. Diaz is having a remarkable season and leading Habs dmen in points and plus/minus, Read is one of the Flyers best forwards this season (before the injury).

Both players are roughly the same age and late bloomers. Both have similar size.

Diaz for Read straight up. No one adds.
Gee, why didn't I think of that?

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02-23-2013, 09:32 PM
  #97
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Lets remember that Diaz is playing with Markov and Markov is making him look good just like Markov made Komi look good. If Diaz wasn't playing with Markov would he still be just as good or be another Komi.
watch him play, it should answer your question.

by the way diaz have better stats than markov.

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02-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #98
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Lets remember that Diaz is playing with Markov and Markov is making him look good just like Markov made Komi look good. If Diaz wasn't playing with Markov would he still be just as good or be another Komi.
For the record, Diaz plays with Gorges on the 2nd pairing. He plays with Markov only on the PP. Diaz has 6 PP points and 6 ES points. So clearly he is contributing 5 on 5 (with Gorges) both offensively and defensively as well as on the PP.

Meanwhile, Komi and Souray had the benefit of playing with Markov ES and PP which greatly inflated Souray's point totals and Komi's defensive numbers.

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02-23-2013, 09:56 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
please tell me your not comparing Simmonds to PK Subban...
Subban and Simmonds really aren't far off value wise.... Subban has slightly more, you're severely underrating Simmonds. Those two are much closer than Read and Diaz are.

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02-23-2013, 10:02 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I see Matt Reid and Raphael Diaz as having similar value. Both are trying to prove themselves this season. Diaz is having a remarkable season and leading Habs dmen in points and plus/minus, Read is one of the Flyers best forwards this season (before the injury).

Both players are roughly the same age and late bloomers. Both have similar size.

Diaz for Read straight up. No one adds.
Read clearly has more value.... He lead rookies in scoring and lead the flyers in scoring before getting hurt, he's also a stud PKer and PPer with great speed and very good defense. He's crazy underrated. Ive said for a long time Read>Henrique and I caught crap for it... Would you say Diaz has the same value as Henrique?

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