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Bylsma/coaching staff discussion thread II

View Poll Results: So can Bylsma still lead them to the promised land?
Sure why not, Bylsma’s system is fine. The team will win another cup with him 40 33.33%
Nah, Bylsma has a better chance of winning dancing with the stars than another cup 80 66.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:09 PM
  #301
Ogrezilla
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Well, if TK starts playing that bad, I guess that's when we can expect a benching, haha.
TK was pretty damn bad last night.

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02-23-2013, 06:10 PM
  #302
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TK was pretty damn bad last night.
He's been horrible for the past... week? Bad all year, imo, but a new level of bad recently.

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02-23-2013, 06:23 PM
  #303
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He's been horrible for the past... week? Bad all year, imo, but a new level of bad recently.
He was bad last season too until about February. He'll pick up again in April this year, but by then he'll be playing somewhere else.

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02-23-2013, 06:30 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Coaches always give their established players more rope than fans. I know you've given examples of vets being benched, but for every struggling vet that's benched I'm sure there are 10 others around the league who've been kept in their line-ups to try to find their game.

I know you like Vitale and Jeffrey (I do too), but a veteran with TK's track record of production still has some weight, and neither of these guys is the difference between winning and losing. We're still winning, so as long as that's happening and TK isn't a total train wreck out there, he's going to stick around.

Not to mention, if we were in the habit of benching players for taking dumb penalties, we'd have benched half the roster at one point or other this year.
I think we all know that TK needs to sit down and it is about much more than the dumb penalty he took. You asked for an example of DB not benching a vet in favor of a guy playing better and TK/Vitale is a decision anyone would have trouble defending.

Again, it is sending a poor message.

DB has been here now, going into his fourth season, and the only example of a vet he benched we can think of is Sykora? A guy who was playing beyond ****** and a guy DB had no real connections to.

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02-23-2013, 06:38 PM
  #305
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Jeffrey looked pissed in his pre-game interview. I bet he can't wait to get on another team. At least he'll see regular minutes with Geno out. May give us a decent trade chip.

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02-23-2013, 06:48 PM
  #306
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So Bylsma put Malkin on the ice last night and Malkin might have a concussion because of it. Terrible coaching job. Where's the psychic ability to know when to keep him off the ice? He should be fired.

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02-23-2013, 07:00 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

DB has been here now, going into his fourth season, and the only example of a vet he benched we can think of is Sykora? A guy who was playing beyond ****** and a guy DB had no real connections to.
Ponikarovsky, although he wasn't one of DB's 'guys' either.

I'd like to see DB hold vets more accountable but people also take it too far. A good group of posters wanted Kunitz scratched when he was struggling or at the very least moved down in the lineup. DB kept him with Sid and let him play through his funk and now he's got 20 points in 18 games. I don't hear anybody talking about that though.

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02-23-2013, 07:34 PM
  #308
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No dude.

You're overcompensating for people you believe complain about DB too much. He doesn't give younger players a shot, he doesn't hold stinky vets accountable (at least in ways visible to fans), and his usage of the people on D makes no sense to me.

And I didn't say anything about Bort's ice time.
Despres is a dynamic kid, but he still makes more than his share of mistakes. DB's gone on record as saying he will not put Despres in a position to fail because the organization thinks so highly of him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing a rookie along at the minutes he's getting now while we're winning and the defense is solid.

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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think we all know that TK needs to sit down and it is about much more than the dumb penalty he took. You asked for an example of DB not benching a vet in favor of a guy playing better and TK/Vitale is a decision anyone would have trouble defending.

Again, it is sending a poor message.

DB has been here now, going into his fourth season, and the only example of a vet he benched we can think of is Sykora? A guy who was playing beyond ****** and a guy DB had no real connections to.
There are other instances too, Sykora's just the most notable. He benched Poni, McKee, Rupp, and Fedotenko at various points. He does bench veterans.

TK's had a real rough go of it this year. But sometimes you just have to let guys try to work themselves out of their funk, even if it takes awhile. Besides, I'm not sure why there's so much urgency here - we're winning. A lot. Not really the time to upset the apple cart, personal preferences aside.

But just in case anybody thinks any coach who tends to stick with vets/limit rookies' playing time is clueless:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1357603

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...263165&page=27

Not that Babcock or Hitch would know anything about coaching.


Last edited by Warm Cookies: 02-23-2013 at 07:42 PM.
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02-23-2013, 07:38 PM
  #309
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Jeffrey looked pissed in his pre-game interview. I bet he can't wait to get on another team. At least he'll see regular minutes with Geno out. May give us a decent trade chip.
I hope he makes the best of this opportunity at least. I think he has a future in this league. I don't think it will be here unless he moves to wing, but I'd be happy if he found a spot here.

On benching Kennedy: I think it would help beyond just getting him out of the line-up. I think it could spark him. He doesn't need to permanently lose his spot. Just sit a game or two to remind him that he isn't irreplaceable.

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02-23-2013, 07:53 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
There are other instances too, Sykora's just the most notable. He benched Poni, McKee, Rupp, and Fedotenko at various points. He does bench veterans.

TK's had a real rough go of it this year. But sometimes you just have to let guys try to work themselves out of their funk, even if it takes awhile. Besides, I'm not sure why there's so much urgency here - we're winning. A lot. Not really the time to upset the apple cart, personal preferences aside.

But just in case anybody thinks any coach who tends to stick with vets is clueless:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1357603
McKee is the only one I recall being benched and he was awful. The others I recall being demoted, which is still a form of accountability though.

It's not about benching a guy to punish him. It's about benching him because he is hurting the team. A perfect example is last night when TK had three or four bad turnovers, then he took a dumb penalty in a tight game that could have swung the tide. This has been going on for weeks now.

It's the same reason I said Kunitz needed his minutes pulled back. He had several more ****** games in a row after I said that, making boneheaded plays that hurt the team. He was even being rewarded with PP time. Why?

If a guy is in a slump like Neal a couple of seasons ago, but playing well in other areas and not hurting your team, you let him play through it.

When guys like Kunitz and TK are playing irresponsible hockey making mental mistake after mental mistake, they need their minutes cut back for awhile (Kunitz) or to be benched for a game or two (TK).

It's just a bad msg to allow guys to keep hurting your hockey team without making them accountable.

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02-23-2013, 09:13 PM
  #311
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Reading GDTs for almost all the Eastern conference teams this week I've learned that out of all 15 teams, not a single one of them has a single coach that knows what they are doing.

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02-23-2013, 09:34 PM
  #312
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Reading GDTs for almost all the Eastern conference teams this week I've learned that out of all 15 teams, not a single one of them has a single coach that knows what they are doing.
true story. every team gives up every rookie's first goal. every team is worse against backup goalies or rookie goalies. and every team is worse in their third jersey. I'm pretty sure based on this forum, the overall league record is well below .500 in afternoon games

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02-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
McKee is the only one I recall being benched and he was awful. The others I recall being demoted, which is still a form of accountability though.

It's not about benching a guy to punish him. It's about benching him because he is hurting the team. A perfect example is last night when TK had three or four bad turnovers, then he took a dumb penalty in a tight game that could have swung the tide. This has been going on for weeks now.

It's the same reason I said Kunitz needed his minutes pulled back. He had several more ****** games in a row after I said that, making boneheaded plays that hurt the team. He was even being rewarded with PP time. Why?

If a guy is in a slump like Neal a couple of seasons ago, but playing well in other areas and not hurting your team, you let him play through it.

When guys like Kunitz and TK are playing irresponsible hockey making mental mistake after mental mistake, they need their minutes cut back for awhile (Kunitz) or to be benched for a game or two (TK).

It's just a bad msg to allow guys to keep hurting your hockey team without making them accountable.
Kunitz' subsequent performance this year since then shows us exactly why. There's accountability, but there's also having faith that veterans who have earned your trust over time will be able to work through their problems - especially since we know it isn't an effort issue with TK. When the team's winning anyway, you can afford to give your veterans that luxury. If we were in the middle of a slump, I think it would be a different story.

And like I showed with the Tatar/Cleary example, DB is hardly the only well-regarded coach who does this. Not that I want to put everything in an appeal to authority, but if a man who many consider the best coach in the league is doing it, you have to think it has some merit.

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02-23-2013, 09:39 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Kunitz' subsequent performance this year since then shows us exactly why. There's accountability, but there's also having faith that veterans who have earned your trust over time will be able to work through their problems - especially since we know it isn't an effort issue with TK. When the team's winning anyway, you can afford to give your veterans that luxury. If we were in the middle of a slump, I think it would be a different story.

And like I showed with the Tatar/Cleary example, DB is hardly the only well-regarded coach who does this. Not that I want to put everything in an appeal to authority, but if a man who many consider the best coach in the league is doing it, you have to think it has some merit.
I get what you're saying. I also think there are instances where guys need that kick in the ass by being benched more than they need the chance to work out their problems. With guys like Jeffrey and Boychuk on the bench, I don't think its a ridiculous notion to replace TK for a game or two to let him know he has some competition. He has shown over his career that he can be successful playing with a great center, but has he shown he can be the offensive catalyst for his line? Maybe one of those guys can.

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02-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
Reading GDTs for almost all the Eastern conference teams this week I've learned that out of all 15 teams, not a single one of them has a single coach that knows what they are doing.
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
true story
I've said it before that pretty much every teams fans hate their coach. The coach is pretty much an automatic whipping boy and then you sprinkle in a TK, Fleury etc. or other teams equivalent of those players as additional whipping boys.

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02-23-2013, 09:48 PM
  #316
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I get what you're saying. I also think there are instances where guys need that kick in the ass by being benched more than they need the chance to work out their problems. With guys like Jeffrey and Boychuk on the bench, I don't think its a ridiculous notion to replace TK for a game or two to let him know he has some competition. He has shown over his career that he can be successful playing with a great center, but has he shown he can be the offensive catalyst for his line? Maybe one of those guys can.
I'm not ruling it out - I think TK needs to step up his performance too. I'm just saying it's not really a major concern at this point, and there's really no reason to rock the boat when we've won 4 of our last 5 by benching a vet when he's clearly trying.

TK has proven he can be a very effective 3rd liner, which is more than any of his competition can say. If we're winning and Malkin's injury opens up a spot in the line-up regardless, I see merit in letting him keep busting his ass trying to get his mojo back.

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02-23-2013, 09:50 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Kunitz' subsequent performance this year since then shows us exactly why. There's accountability, but there's also having faith that veterans who have earned your trust over time will be able to work through their problems - especially since we know it isn't an effort issue with TK. When the team's winning anyway, you can afford to give your veterans that luxury. If we were in the middle of a slump, I think it would be a different story.

And like I showed with the Tatar/Cleary example, DB is hardly the only well-regarded coach who does this. Not that I want to put everything in an appeal to authority, but if a man who many consider the best coach in the league is doing it, you have to think it has some merit.
I didn't think Kunitz needed benched, but I do think TK does. To me, there's a real difference.

1) Kunitz is much more established
2) TK has been "bad" for a long period of time now, including portions of last year
3) there are players who can legitimately play TK's minutes and not be worse than TK, there are no players who can slide into the top-6 for Kunitz.

Jeffrey and/or Boychuk may be able to be solid bottom-6 contributors to this team next year (and beyond). Let's start finding out now, they cannot be worse than MBP.

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02-23-2013, 10:25 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm not ruling it out - I think TK needs to step up his performance too. I'm just saying it's not really a major concern at this point, and there's really no reason to rock the boat when we've won 4 of our last 5 by benching a vet when he's clearly trying.

TK has proven he can be a very effective 3rd liner, which is more than any of his competition can say. If we're winning and Malkin's injury opens up a spot in the line-up regardless, I see merit in letting him keep busting his ass trying to get his mojo back.
with Geno out and Boychuk being the only option to replace him, I can't really disagree. But like I said, has TK ever proven he can be a very effective 3rd liner without having Staal as his center? I think this is a very different situation for him. He is the main offensive cog now and so far he has failed pretty miserably in that role.

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02-23-2013, 11:28 PM
  #319
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with Geno out and Boychuk being the only option to replace him, I can't really disagree. But like I said, has TK ever proven he can be a very effective 3rd liner without having Staal as his center? I think this is a very different situation for him. He is the main offensive cog now and so far he has failed pretty miserably in that role.
Yes. Kennedy looked real good on the "Buzz Line" with Letestu and Conner in '10-'11.

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/index....-line-11-18-10

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02-23-2013, 11:30 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Yes. Kennedy looked real good on the "Buzz Line" with Letestu and Conner in '10-'11.

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/index....-line-11-18-10
Well, since those two are gone, and Staal is gone...

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02-23-2013, 11:34 PM
  #321
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Well, since those two are gone, and Staal is gone...
That's really not the point, Jags. The point is that it was suggested that TK has never shown he could be an effective 3rd liner without Staal (ie a high-end center), but he has.

I don't think anyone has ever thought that Letestu or Conner are good enough to elevate anyone's play.

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02-23-2013, 11:39 PM
  #322
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Yes. Kennedy looked real good on the "Buzz Line" with Letestu and Conner in '10-'11.

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/index....-line-11-18-10
Good call. I think tk might look better on a more offensively oriented line when not with staal at least. Someone mentioned Bennett Jeffrey tk. Buzz line 2.0?

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02-23-2013, 11:54 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Kunitz' subsequent performance this year since then shows us exactly why. There's accountability, but there's also having faith that veterans who have earned your trust over time will be able to work through their problems - especially since we know it isn't an effort issue with TK. When the team's winning anyway, you can afford to give your veterans that luxury. If we were in the middle of a slump, I think it would be a different story.

And like I showed with the Tatar/Cleary example, DB is hardly the only well-regarded coach who does this. Not that I want to put everything in an appeal to authority, but if a man who many consider the best coach in the league is doing it, you have to think it has some merit.
Again, this is about accountability. This team continues to show a lack of discipline. They once again unraveled agt Philly and agt NJ. It's been an ongoing theme for quite some time now.

So instead of sending a msg that the team comes first, he rewards guys like Kunitz and TK with regular ice time and PP time, when they are playing undisciplined, lazy hockey.

DB I'm quite sure has preached to these guys over and over about being disciplined, making smart decisions with the puck, not taking selfish/retaliatory penalties etc. However, it keeps happening. What recourse does he have now? To keep sounding like a broken record?

He was on the right track Sat, then he blows it by giving TK PP time. Why?

You have Vitale doing everything right... everything DB asks... and he is on the bench as a reward, while TK gets to keep ****ing around.

Like I keep saying, it sends a bad message. You said he is playing his best players and I disagree. Vitale is clearly the better option right now.

This is a loyalty thing, not a case of playing the best players.

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02-24-2013, 12:03 AM
  #324
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That's really not the point, Jags. The point is that it was suggested that TK has never shown he could be an effective 3rd liner without Staal (ie a high-end center), but he has.

I don't think anyone has ever thought that Letestu or Conner are good enough to elevate anyone's play.
Chemistry happens in strange places sometimes. It happens often in hockey. Some guys you would think would light it up together, don't. Then in other cases an average player shows up on a line and presto, magic.

Point taken, I suppose, but I am personally tired of Kennedy's game. He could easily go and not be missed as far as I'm concerned. It'd be nice to get bigger on the third line, if possible (since the fourth line is Bylsma-protected).

That said, I am not expecting Kennedy to bring much back. His trade value is pretty low. And I doubt anybody wants to qualify him after this season, so he's basically a pending UFA.

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02-24-2013, 12:23 AM
  #325
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Again, this is about accountability. This team continues to show a lack of discipline. They once again unraveled agt Philly and agt NJ. It's been an ongoing theme for quite some time now.

So instead of sending a msg that the team comes first, he rewards guys like Kunitz and TK with regular ice time and PP time, when they are playing undisciplined, lazy hockey.

DB I'm quite sure has preached to these guys over and over about being disciplined, making smart decisions with the puck, not taking selfish/retaliatory penalties etc. However, it keeps happening.
What recourse does he have now? To keep sounding like a broken record?

He was on the right track Sat, then he blows it by giving TK PP time. Why?

You have Vitale doing everything right... everything DB asks... and he is on the bench as a reward, while TK gets to keep ****ing around.

Like I keep saying, it sends a bad message. You said he is playing his best players and I disagree. Vitale is clearly the better option right now.

This is a loyalty thing, not a case of playing the best players.
Kunitz has earned all the time he's gotten after the first handful of games this season (he's tied for 13th in league scoring this year, man ), and Kennedy wasn't anything close to a reason we lost vs. NJ or Philly. He had zero penalties and exactly one giveaway in those 3 games.

You know who was by far the most undisciplined Pens player in those games? Malkin. 5 minor penalties in those 3 games, and NJ's GWG in the 1st game was scored on one of them. If he truly wanted to send a message about the importance of discipline, he'd be benching the guy with the team leading 30 PIMs, not the guy with 4.

Like I said, Babcock is sticking with his vets the same way in Detroit, and he has more promising and effective replacement options than we have. I never said DB was playing his best players, I said he was giving a vet the opportunity to find his game while we're winning. The fact is that Vitale's competition when we have a full roster is Jeffrey on the 4th line, not TK on the 3rd.

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