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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
02-16-2013, 01:25 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Well, EJ is now 24 years old. At what age are we going to accept that he is what he is and that there really isn't any more potential to attain? Do you expect significant development to occur until he's 30 or something?
And Shattenkirk is also 24... Does his defensive game keep getting better but EJ can't get back to 40 points?

Shattenkirk is 9 months younger, and has had two 43 point seasons. He is playing on a team that has scored 21 more goals in 2 more games. He has like 9 secondary assists. He went from being -7 to +11 in the same season, but playing on two different teams. You don't see how the situations they are in influence the numbers?

Shatty put up 43 points at 21. EJ put up 39. The potential is there. I don't see how you can say otherwise.

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02-16-2013, 01:56 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Well, EJ is now 24 years old. At what age are we going to accept that he is what he is and that there really isn't any more potential to attain? Do you expect significant development to occur until he's 30 or something?
As you quoted me. I said until we get a new coach we will not. I am expecting him to get a better chance with a new coach. He isn't being put in a position to succeed IMO.

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02-16-2013, 02:09 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
And Shattenkirk is also 24... Does his defensive game keep getting better but EJ can't get back to 40 points?

Shattenkirk is 9 months younger, and has had two 43 point seasons. He is playing on a team that has scored 21 more goals in 2 more games. He has like 9 secondary assists. He went from being -7 to +11 in the same season, but playing on two different teams. You don't see how the situations they are in influence the numbers?

Shatty put up 43 points at 21. EJ put up 39. The potential is there. I don't see how you can say otherwise.
I didn't say EJ doesn't have the potential. He doesn't have the production. Shattenkirk has both.

And as I said in an earlier discussion, last year's StL/Col teams scored about the same amount of goals, and Shattenkirk far outproduced EJ offensively.

Again, I truly don't have a problem with EJ as a player. I really don't. In fact, I think he's quite good in certain aspects of the game. I also believe I'm taking a very direct, honest look at him and accepting what he is. At least what he is right now. My issue is the price paid for EJ.

Ever since EJ got to Colorado, I've been of the belief that they should pair him with a really good stay-at-home defenseman, so he can be free to produce offense. I'm not sure I feel that way any longer. I'm beginning to believe that EJ *is* the really good one defensively, and they should pair him with someone who can produce offense.


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02-16-2013, 02:13 PM
  #654
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As you quoted me. I said until we get a new coach we will not. I am expecting him to get a better chance with a new coach. He isn't being put in a position to succeed IMO.
Yes, thank you. I meant to comment on that but forgot.

I agree with you completely on Sacco. He dumbs down everyone's game to it's lowest common denominator, particularly offensively. And I don't doubt this hurts EJ.

You know, one thing that I believe completely escapes both Sherman and Sacco, is chemistry. I'm a big believer in chemistry between hockey players, particularly pairs of forwards and defensemen. Given how Sacco changes lines more often than socks (though this particular season I don't blame him as much), and given how Sherman doesn't seem to keep players who play well together signed, it makes me wonder whether they have any notion of the concept at all.

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02-16-2013, 04:11 PM
  #655
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The Liles trade was a straight salary dump. When you cut loose $4M in salary and don't take similar salary back, you take it in the shorts. Which Sherman did. And I believe since they dumped both Liles and Shattenkirk in the same few months, they *really* overestimated both EJ's and Elliott's (and perhaps Barrie's) readiness to create offense from a NHL blueline. Yikes.

Agreed totally on the Varlamov/Anderson situation. The Avs are basically in the same place as they were in Anderson, minus two draft picks. The team isn't any better. Unless of course you read into the "Anderson tanked games purposefully" conspiracy theory stuff. Which I do not.

I also am very concerned about what this O'Reilly trade will look like. Very concerned, indeed. I hope he does nothing, and everyone calms down over the Summer.

In the end, the Avs have two really good players in Varlamov and EJ, which is good. But they overpaid dearly for both, the team isn't any better than they would have been if they didn't make those moves, and the rebuild is likely now pushed out a year or two.
I couldn't have said it better.

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02-16-2013, 09:08 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I didn't say EJ doesn't have the potential. He doesn't have the production. Shattenkirk has both.

And as I said in an earlier discussion, last year's StL/Col teams scored about the same amount of goals, and Shattenkirk far outproduced EJ offensively.

Again, I truly don't have a problem with EJ as a player. I really don't. In fact, I think he's quite good in certain aspects of the game. I also believe I'm taking a very direct, honest look at him and accepting what he is. At least what he is right now. My issue is the price paid for EJ.

Ever since EJ got to Colorado, I've been of the belief that they should pair him with a really good stay-at-home defenseman, so he can be free to produce offense. I'm not sure I feel that way any longer. I'm beginning to believe that EJ *is* the really good one defensively, and they should pair him with someone who can produce offense.
Okay fair enough. I can't really disagree with anything you've said. It was a steep price to pay, but one that seemed necessary. I think this team will have a lot easier time finding another Shattenkirk before they find an EJ. It's really too bad Sherman shot himself in the foot in this sense. He had a guy similar to Shattenkirk who he basically gave away for nothing. Not only would Liles be nice to have still, but he would have made the whole Stewart-Johnson trade look a lot better from the Avs end.

I agree with him needing a offensive defenceman as well. Watching him the last two seasons, it is clear he is truly becoming a take care of his end first type of player now. However, I don't think he is going to end up just a shut-down defenceman. I really believe that if he got a mobile partner who can roam around for him, as well as be decent enough defensively (Hunwick with a brain), then he would excel.

I've pointed this out before, but when he first got here he mostly played with Liles and was playing at a 39 point pace. That is roughly what I would expect from him given a *decent* scoring defenceman. If they found him a defensive partner (i.e Yandle) who excels offensively, then I wouldn't be surprised with 45-50 points plus great defence. As it stands now, if he is playing the current Avs defencemen then he will always be a ~30 point defenceman unless he decides that playing good defense no longer matters. I feel like if you swapped him with a guy like Brent Seabrook, you'd see Seabrook's numbers really decline, and Johnson's increase playing with Keith.

5,10, and 8 are respectable goal scoring numbers. It would be nice to know what happened in his full season here which has continued into this season.

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02-17-2013, 01:00 AM
  #657
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Can we please acquire a PKer? Or claim one, the Flames waived Blair Jones, good 4th line energy guy.

And we've lost that O'Byrne trade. Bournival's not played a single NHL game but the damage done just by having O'Byrne is more.

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02-17-2013, 01:57 AM
  #658
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Can we please acquire a PKer? Or claim one, the Flames waived Blair Jones, good 4th line energy guy.

And we've lost that O'Byrne trade. Bournival's not played a single NHL game but the damage done just by having O'Byrne is more.
No, we didn't lose the O'Byrne trade. He's a depth guy who had to play a top-pairing role the minute he arrived, and he played that role well with Liles. The fact that he's a slow defenseman with no puck skill on a team that thought it was a good idea to fill the blueline up with slow defensemen with no puck skill isn't really his fault. I'm not saying he's completely blameless here, but a guy like O'Byrne is limited in his utility. It's on Avs management for not realizing that two years after trading for the guy.

In the end, the Habs "won" the trade because they were dealing from a position of strength. Avs needed size/grit on their undersized blueline in a big way, and the Habs had enough depth on defense to wait for the right deal. Nonetheless I think the trade was one of Sherman's better ones. Too bad he's done such a piss-poor job following up on it. But we didn't "lose" it.

Our depth forwards are fine, acquiring another won't make any difference. It's that top-six guy sitting at home the Avs could use.

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02-17-2013, 08:17 AM
  #659
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Okay fair enough. I can't really disagree with anything you've said. It was a steep price to pay, but one that seemed necessary. I think this team will have a lot easier time finding another Shattenkirk before they find an EJ. It's really too bad Sherman shot himself in the foot in this sense. He had a guy similar to Shattenkirk who he basically gave away for nothing. Not only would Liles be nice to have still, but he would have made the whole Stewart-Johnson trade look a lot better from the Avs end.
So, the Avs defense has been abysmal so far - at both ends of the ice - I suspect we can all agree on that, yes?

As I see it, there's one guy who's obviously playing better offensively than the rest of the crew (Barrie), and there's one guy who's obviously playing better defensively than the rest of the crew (Johnson). What say we pair them and leave them together for at least a dozen games without breaking them up (once EJ gets back, of course), play them 28 minutes per night, and see how it goes?

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02-17-2013, 08:23 AM
  #660
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No, we didn't lose the O'Byrne trade. He's a depth guy who had to play a top-pairing role the minute he arrived, and he played that role well with Liles. The fact that he's a slow defenseman with no puck skill on a team that thought it was a good idea to fill the blueline up with slow defensemen with no puck skill isn't really his fault. I'm not saying he's completely blameless here, but a guy like O'Byrne is limited in his utility. It's on Avs management for not realizing that two years after trading for the guy.

In the end, the Habs "won" the trade because they were dealing from a position of strength. Avs needed size/grit on their undersized blueline in a big way, and the Habs had enough depth on defense to wait for the right deal. Nonetheless I think the trade was one of Sherman's better ones. Too bad he's done such a piss-poor job following up on it. But we didn't "lose" it.

Our depth forwards are fine, acquiring another won't make any difference. It's that top-six guy sitting at home the Avs could use.
Agreed all around. While I feel that O'Byrne is a depth player who gets way too many cudos in this forum (ala McClement), he's not an awful player, and he serves a purpose. He's a pylon, but a pylon that's often in decent position, and a pylon that's relatively physical. If the Avs could put him on the 3rd pairing where he belongs, we wouldn't have an issue, I don't think. (Though he's been a bit of a turd this season, all of that said).

Given the gross overpayments that Sherman has put forth, this trade certainly flies under the radar, IMO.

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02-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
So, the Avs defense has been abysmal so far - at both ends of the ice - I suspect we can all agree on that, yes?

As I see it, there's one guy who's obviously playing better offensively than the rest of the crew (Barrie), and there's one guy who's obviously playing better defensively than the rest of the crew (Johnson). What say we pair them and leave them together for at least a dozen games without breaking them up (once EJ gets back, of course), play them 28 minutes per night, and see how it goes?
I likey! Not only because it makes sense but also because the more ice time those two can handle the fewer shifts for everyone else. One of the reasons I've was sorta intrigued by Phaneuf was that he's capable of eating large minutes. the Avs have a lot of guys that are ok in limited TOI but all get exposed by playing more than they should.

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02-17-2013, 01:44 PM
  #662
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Agreed all around. While I feel that O'Byrne is a depth player who gets way too many cudos in this forum (ala McClement), he's not an awful player, and he serves a purpose. He's a pylon, but a pylon that's often in decent position, and a pylon that's relatively physical. If the Avs could put him on the 3rd pairing where he belongs, we wouldn't have an issue, I don't think. (Though he's been a bit of a turd this season, all of that said).

Given the gross overpayments that Sherman has put forth, this trade certainly flies under the radar, IMO.
Ryan O'Bryne is the worst Dman I have seen in the past 25 years. Every single time he is on the ice the opposition dominantes.

He has no buisness in the NHL. He needs to go NOW

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02-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #663
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Ryan O'Bryne is the worst Dman I have seen in the past 25 years. Every single time he is on the ice the opposition dominantes.

He has no buisness in the NHL. He needs to go NOW
Jesus man, relax. He'll be gone at the end of the year, if not sooner.

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02-24-2013, 12:28 AM
  #664
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Nice to see Shattenkirk playing at a Norris calibre and Stewart keep on scoring.

Nice work Sherm

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02-24-2013, 03:51 AM
  #665
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Nice to see Shattenkirk playing at a Norris calibre and Stewart keep on scoring.

Nice work Sherm
Yikes. I dislike Sherman as well but your statements are somehow always outrageous.
With EJ out concussed it sure looks like we have lost that trade.
I still take EJ over Shattenkirk for the Avs quite easily. And we will see what becomes of Siemens and Rattie.

However Shattenkirk is so far away from a Norris that it is not even funny. If you would have said he could if he gets very very lucky be the next Brian Rafalski, I would maybe have agreed.
But Norris winner? Come on. Shattenkirk is still only decent at best defensively.

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02-24-2013, 05:20 AM
  #666
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Nice to see Shattenkirk playing at a Norris calibre and Stewart keep on scoring.

Nice work Sherm
Haha, as soon as I saw the goal I knew you would come here and post this.

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02-24-2013, 08:27 AM
  #667
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Yikes. I dislike Sherman as well but your statements are somehow always outrageous.
With EJ out concussed it sure looks like we have lost that trade.
I still take EJ over Shattenkirk for the Avs quite easily. And we will see what becomes of Siemens and Rattie.

However Shattenkirk is so far away from a Norris that it is not even funny. If you would have said he could if he gets very very lucky be the next Brian Rafalski, I would maybe have agreed.
But Norris winner? Come on. Shattenkirk is still only decent at best defensively.
Paul Coffey won multiple Norris trophies. And Karlsson is hardly a rock defensively - not bad, but not great.

The Norris trophy is almost always wrapped around a high scoring defender. If Shattenkirk continues to play this way offensively, and his defense is decent, he will absolutely without a doubt be in the Norris discussion.

And btw, EJ's concussion has nothing on earth to do with the Avs getting fleeced in that trade. Which - at this point here and now - they did.

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02-24-2013, 08:44 AM
  #668
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EK is much better defensively than he gets credit for, Shatty is nowhere near him both defensively and offensively, plus he's sheltered by Pietrangelo.

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02-24-2013, 09:04 AM
  #669
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EK is much better defensively than he gets credit for, Shatty is nowhere near him both defensively and offensively, plus he's sheltered by Pietrangelo.
Nope. Shattenkirk generally doesn't pair with Pietrangelo - less than 3% of the time. From the 'defend the EJ trade', that's a new one though.

I'd be interested in reading your defense of 'Shattenkirk is nowhere near EJ offensively'. Unless I misread that, of course.


P.S. My apologies - I read 'EJ' instead of 'EK'. I did misread it after all. :-) I don't think either Shatt's or EK's defense is anything more than decent.


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02-24-2013, 09:07 AM
  #670
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Paul Coffey won multiple Norris trophies. And Karlsson is hardly a rock defensively - not bad, but not great.

The Norris trophy is almost always wrapped around a high scoring defender. If Shattenkirk continues to play this way offensively, and his defense is decent, he will absolutely without a doubt be in the Norris discussion.

And btw, EJ's concussion has nothing on earth to do with the Avs getting fleeced in that trade. Which - at this point here and now - they did.
This made me look up all the Norris trophy winners. I never realized no one has won the Norris trophy with less than 50 points since Rod Langway in 1982. Shattenkirk may put up the numbers to be in the discussion, but I doubt he ever gets a strong enough reputation defensively to win. That said, he is a lot closer to winning one than EJ.

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02-24-2013, 09:08 AM
  #671
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Nope. Shattenkirk generally doesn't pair with Pietrangelo. From the 'defend the EJ trade', that's a new one though.

I'd be interested in reading your defense of 'Shattenkirk is nowhere near EJ offensively'. Unless I misread that, of course.
I would assume no where near Karlsson is what he means.

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02-24-2013, 09:10 AM
  #672
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This made me look up all the Norris trophy winners. I never realized no one has won the Norris trophy with less than 50 points since Rod Langway in 1982. Shattenkirk may put up the numbers to be in the discussion, but I doubt he ever gets a strong enough reputation defensively to win. That said, he is a lot closer to winning one than EJ.
Quite possibly correct, re: Shattenkirk's defense. But he'll be in the discussion without a doubt, if he continues at his current pace.

I've long wanted to see a defensive defenseman award, because the Norris certainly isn't that.

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02-24-2013, 09:12 AM
  #673
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Nope. Shattenkirk generally doesn't pair with Pietrangelo - less than 3% of the time. From the 'defend the EJ trade', that's a new one though.

I'd be interested in reading your defense of 'Shattenkirk is nowhere near EJ offensively'. Unless I misread that, of course.
By EK I mean Erik Karlsson and even though they don't play together (Shatty plays with Jackman and Pie with Cole) Shatty benefits greatly by playing behind Pie who takes all the tough matchups.

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02-24-2013, 09:12 AM
  #674
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I would assume no where near Karlsson is what he means.
Yeah, I just saw that. LOL. EJ/EK.......

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02-24-2013, 09:15 AM
  #675
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Yeah, I just saw that. LOL. EJ/EK.......
If only they were that similar on the ice.

Do you think Shattenkirk would have become as good as he is if he stayed with the Avs? And how much better off do you think the Avs defense would be with him?

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