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A quick search for last year's number shows Eriksson & Benn a lot. The guy scored under 20 goals his last 2yrs with Boston, they were a deep team too. He had a great year last year, this year, he's come back down.
I'm not a homer, perhaps you are thinking his value is greater than it is. Honesty hurts sometimes. I don't think you understand the definition of homer. What bothers you? The fact that we are well informed about our GM's trading habits? The fact that Shero gave up Caputi + Skoula for Ponikarovksy, who was more consistent of a player than Ryder was when the Pens traded for him and is not a bad basis for comparison?
What bothers you exactly? Because the logic I am bringing to you, clearly seems to bother you Stars fans. I don't get it. As a Pens fan, I say no thanks to Ryder and yet this bothers you all.
Ponikarovsky was consistently scoring less than Ryder.
Poni's previous 4 complete seasons prior to trade:
21 goals
21
18
23
(19 in 61 games w/Toronto + a whopping 2 in 16 games with Pittsburgh)
Ryder's previous 4 complete seasons:
27
18
18
35
(6 in 18 games this season...27 goal pace over 82 games)
Ryder's down years recently were in line with Ponikarovsky's average years. Also, he played some with Benn last year but he also played quite a bit with Ribeiro. I'm not even sure what your point about linemates is supposed to mean in this scenario as I'm pretty sure the entire world would say that Malkin and Crosby are better than Benn and Ribeiro. Are you expecting to see a dip in scoring if he doesn't get to play with Benn?
FWIW, Ryder really hasn't had any amount of consistency where linemates are concerned this season. He's played with everyone from Roy to Eakin to Fiddler from time to time.
In any case, nobody said the Pens are the only possible destination. We're aware what your GM typically gives up in deadline deals. We're also aware of what the market is for players like Ryder come trade deadline. I hope Nieuwendyk doesn't put the blinders on and opens himself up to other possibilities.
This seems to be a foreign concept. For what you think Ryder is worth and what the Pens have to give up to get him according to you guys, not realistic value I mean, the Pens could get something better.
No need to get your panties in a bunch. I, and other Stars fans, have said repeatedly that there's no reason he has to go to the Pens. Still, you can at least attempt to leave your disingenuous "facts" out of the discussion. Calling his stats from last year padded due to linemates is just silly and ill-informed.
You really want to know how to get 30+ goals out of Ryder? Play him more than 14-15 freaking minutes a night with good NHL players. It's not rocket science.
This thread made me happy until the last couple of pages.
It seems like Dallas fans (or maybe the majority I've encountered) understand not only their team/players/situation, but also understand the Penguins organization as well (players, situation, needs, Shero, prospects, etc.) which makes me want to discuss further in this land of make believe lol.
Minnesota and Dallas fans...I like you...can we continue discussions?
I want nothing to do with Ryder to the Penguins, that's all there is to it. Panties in a bunch? Very mature.
He is a complimentary winger, he's a guy that disappears if his linemates aren't creating space for him, not a guy going out there and creating the space himself. You seem to think we folks that watch the East, have no clue about Michael Ryder a guy that has spent 95% of his career, guess where....
In the Eastern conference with Montreal & Boston. I know exactly what kind of player he is, you have him for a year and a half and suddenly you're Andy Sutton.
Ryder has 60 more goals than Ponikarovsky in 100 fewer games. Where's the comparison exactly?
i can't speak for Honour Over Glory, but here are some reasons why i wouldn't trade for Ryder (they all go hand-in-hand for this player, too, so each individual point wouldn't necessarily stand for any other player available as far as i'm concerned):
--impending UFA
--expensive contract (i know the UFA thing weakens that point a bit, but still)
--trading on a "what-if" basis (like "if he played with Crosby, yada yada yada")
--cost likely too high for the Pens' comfort zone
--better options are available for similar or lower cost
some of those above points could be applied to the Ponikarovski trade in hindsight, but hindsight is always 20-20
No need to get your panties in a bunch. I, and other Stars fans, have said repeatedly that there's no reason he has to go to the Pens. Still, you can at least attempt to leave your disingenuous "facts" out of the discussion. Calling his stats from last year padded due to linemates is just silly and ill-informed.
You really want to know how to get 30+ goals out of Ryder? Play him more than 14-15 freaking minutes a night with good NHL players. It's not rocket science.
He's averaging 16:26 this year. Was 17:22 last year. Was consistently under 15:20 min in Boston. Clearly icetime doesn't seem to be the issue with him not consistently producing.
__________________ "It’s not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, it’s as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
As for the comparisons to Poni.... while it's an interesting comparison, I don't think it's quite accurate. I think most recognize that Poni (much like TK the other year when Sid and Geno were out) simply produced because he was playing top line minutes on a weak team. But it does show that not everyone who puts up a few numbers fetches a huge return.
So while I do believe that Ryder will fetch at least a 2nd and a prospect, I don't think it'll be much more than a mid level prospect, the main part of the return would be the 2nd. I don't see someone giving up a 1st in this draft for Ryder.
Look at the last few trade deadlines. Other than Hossa & Kovy (stars) and Gausted (crazy trade), when was the last 1st rounder moved? Penner for a 1st and prospect in 10/11. The next time it happened? 2006/07 in 2 trades - Bill Guerin and Ryan Smyth. Both of whom were stars at the time. My point is most GMs are not freely handing out 1sts for inconsistent 2nd line wingers.
I want nothing to do with Ryder to the Penguins, that's all there is to it. Panties in a bunch? Very mature.
He is a complimentary winger, he's a guy that disappears if his linemates aren't creating space for him, not a guy going out there and creating the space himself. You seem to think we folks that watch the East, have no clue about Michael Ryder a guy that has spent 95% of his career, guess where....
In the Eastern conference with Montreal & Boston. I know exactly what kind of player he is, you have him for a year and a half and suddenly you're Andy Sutton.
You're inferring a ton about how we view the player and how we view your understanding of the player.
He disappears if his linemates aren't creating space...are you worried your all-world centers can't provide that space?
You've been quite the example of maturity in this thread. I do apologize greatly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by domaug
i can't speak for Honour Over Glory, but here are some reasons why i wouldn't trade for Ryder (they all go hand-in-hand for this player, too, so each individual point wouldn't necessarily stand for any other player available as far as i'm concerned):
--impending UFA
--expensive contract (i know the UFA thing weakens that point a bit, but still)
--trading on a "what-if" basis (like "if he played with Crosby, yada yada yada")
--cost likely too high for the Pens' comfort zone
--better options are available for similar or lower cost
some of those above points could be applied to the Ponikarovski trade in hindsight, but hindsight is always 20-20
--Impending UFA...those are generally the most available type of player at the deadline every season. This year is no different.
--His contract is in line with his production, but if you're saying your team actually can't fit his contract then I understand. I would just add that IF (I don't know that Pittsburgh actually is in the market for a winger) the Pens are looking to add firepower at the wing position then you're going to be hard-pressed to find a guy available for a cheaper price tag contract-wise.
--Not really sure what you mean about a "what if" basis. Ryder scored 5 of his 6 goals while playing with rookie phenom Cody Eakin. Assuming (hoping?) Malkin gets over his head issues Ryder would be playing with more talent in Pittsburgh than he has been in Dallas.
--Cost too high, completely understand.
--I'm curious what other options you would put forth.
Edit: Btw, thanks for discussing this rationally. It's much appreciated.
Last edited by glovesave_35: 02-24-2013 at 08:56 AM.
He's averaging 16:26 this year. Was 17:22 last year. Was consistently under 15:20 min in Boston. Clearly icetime doesn't seem to be the issue with him not consistently producing.
He played 281 more total minutes and 53 more minutes on the PP last year than the season prior. I'm not sure how those are insignificant totals.
--Not really sure what you mean about a "what if" basis. Ryder scored 5 of his 6 goals while playing with rookie phenom Cody Eakin. Assuming (hoping?) Malkin gets over his head issues Ryder would be playing with more talent in Pittsburgh than he has been in Dallas.
Guess, what he means is, that this "but player xy would do so well playing with Malkin/Crosby" comes up every time and that really adds nothing to his trade value at all. Why does Pittsburgh having better center depth than Dallas have any effect on the return you would expect for Ryder?
Besides, we already have players that can feed off of Crosby well. Look at were Dupuis and Kunitz are in scoring lists this so far. We need some who are a thread of their own now to improve.
Ryder is a fine player. Don't quite know if he brings the package we would really desire though. More like an option, if we wanted to get two top 6 wingers around deadline time.
1st round pick... Too rich. But maybe Ryder and third/fourth for Maatta, if Dallas are out of it and wants a very good D prospect. We have too many to utilize them all anyway.
I think 2nd + Blueger is probably a pretty fair offer for Ryder, if Dallas want a cheap, young potential 3rd line centre then maybe Jeffrey would be interested.
Guess, what he means is, that this "but player xy would do so well playing with Malkin/Crosby" comes up every time and that really adds nothing to his trade value at all. Why does Pittsburgh having better center depth than Dallas have any effect on the return you would expect for Ryder?
Besides, we already have players that can feed off of Crosby well. Look at were Dupuis and Kunitz are in scoring lists this so far. We need some who are a thread of their own now to improve.
I didn't realize Pittsburgh was looking for scoring from the 3rd line.
In an ideal world Dupuis plays on the 3rd line (instead of Kennedy who has struggled without Staal) but I don't think Pens will acquire two wingers and Dupuis works extremely well with Crosby even if he generates most of his offense by sheer force of will.
i understand time heals a lot of grudges, especially over pro sports, but the "dying alive" garbage still stings
The dying alive stuff was, IMO and IIRC, mostly media created ********. They kept hammering away at the guy until he gave him a soundbite that was kind of suspect and fairly out of context and used it to crucify him. If I had to guess I'd wager that most of the people who boo Jagr for the dying alive comments weren't even around to hear them when they were said. They've just taken on kind of an urban legend status among the Pens fanbase that gets passed down through the ages. And yes, I realize the irony of this coming from someone with my particular username, I just think the phrase is hilarious.
That said, Jagr did burn a lot of bridges this last time. I think that's partially on him and partially on the fans who just assumed that he'd be coming back, but there's no question it could have been handled better & it left a sour taste in a lot of mouths from the top of the organization right down through the fans. The fact that Shero withdrew the offer before the deadline even came & went tells you something.
tl;dr version: I don't think they'd be interested in trading for Jagr & I don't think he'll ever play here again. They may give him a 1 day contract when he retires & let him retire a Penguin and hang his number. Depends on how things truly are between him and Mario.
Kind of an odd non sequitur, but who doesn't look for scoring from the 3rd line.
Touché. I guess when I see a gazillion threads over the last few years about sending a scoring winger to Pittsburgh I didn't think they were looking for wingers for J. Staal/Brandon Sutter.
Touché. I guess when I see a gazillion threads over the last few years about sending a scoring winger to Pittsburgh I didn't think they were looking for wingers for J. Staal/Brandon Sutter.
, it doesn't really matter which center he ends up playing with, what I am saying is, that we are looking for the kind of guy who would be a thread with J. Staal/Brandon Sutter.
A 2nd + a prospect sounds fine, when it's a faceless, nameless prospect. It's when names pop up that it gets a bit tougher.
Then what would be some suggestions to make that prospect not faceless and nameless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory
The guy scored under 20 goals his last 2yrs with Boston, they were a deep team too. He had a great year last year, this year, he's come back down.
Ryder was playing 3rd line minutes in Boston, and first line minutes here last year. That's a big difference and is the reason for the discrepancy in his numbers those two seasons.
bad trade for the pens... Ryder is an inconsistent player, giving a 2nd round pick and a B level prospect? uhh no be real, i would throw a 3rd round pick only because his contract is up after the season and pittsburgh prolly wouldnt want to re-sign him anyway considering Iginla and Perry will hit the market. but i would throw in a guy like Dumoulin bc he has the potential to be a good shut down guy at 6'3" 220 lbs. and dallas needs defenseman.
, it doesn't really matter which center he ends up playing with, what I am saying is, that we are looking for the kind of guy who would be a thread with J. Staal/Brandon Sutter.
Gotcha, in that case Ryder isn't your man at any price.
, it doesn't really matter which center he ends up playing with, what I am saying is, that we are looking for the kind of guy who would be a thread with J. Staal/Brandon Sutter.
