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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:20 AM
  #676
ABasin
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
By EK I mean Erik Karlsson
Yes, I apologize. I often refer to Johnson as EJ, and I dropped a bit there.

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and even though they don't play together (Shatty plays with Jackman and Pie with Cole) Shatty benefits greatly by playing behind Pie who takes all the tough matchups.
According to the Corsi stats, Jackman and Cole are the ones doing that. Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk are next on the list, in that order. In truth, I don't want to pump those stats too much, as we're getting into an area of overanalysis.

This is simply overblown, IMO. I realize that the truth of this trade is tough to take, and the rationale(s) being put forth to defend it are really rather fun at times, but the results are what they are. They become harder and harder to dispute/refute/rationalize every day. I'll continue to enjoy watching the attempts, however. Hopefully, EJ's offensive play will turn around so these rationalizations have some more merit (and the team is better).

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02-24-2013, 09:31 AM
  #677
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Do you think Shattenkirk would have become as good as he is if he stayed with the Avs?
Yes. Offensively, anyway.

Shattenkirk was scoring at a near 50 point pace as a rookie (on a crappy team, no less). That's really an accomplishment. Keith didn't do that. Karlsson didn't do it. Doughty didn't do it. Yandle didn't do it. EJ didn't do it. Suter didn't do it. Shea Weber didn't do it (though he came close). But Shattenkirk was scoring at that pace - so not only was the skill there, the production was already there.

In short, the Avs had something special on their hands.

I have no doubt that he would have grown from there on the Avs also. Now, would he have grown as much defensively? Probably not, no. That was learned by Shattenkirk, and it probably wouldn't have taken place here - Hitchcock vs. Sacco and all that.

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And how much better off do you think the Avs defense would be with him?
Worlds better. Defensively, they might not be much different, but from a goal scoring and transition standpoint, much better. (I'm just plugging him into the current defense there, which includes EJ).


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02-24-2013, 09:33 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Yes, I apologize. I often refer to Johnson as EJ, and I dropped a bit there.



According to the Corsi stats, Jackman and Cole are the ones doing that. Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk are next on the list, in that order. In truth, I don't want to pump those stats too much, as we're getting into an area of overanalysis.

This is simply overblown, IMO. I realize that the truth of this trade is tough to take, and the rationale(s) being put forth to defend it are really rather fun at times, but the results are what they are. They become harder and harder to dispute/refute/rationalize every day. I'll continue to enjoy watching the attempts, however. Hopefully, EJ's offensive play will turn around so these rationalizations have some more merit (and the team is better).
We can't know the truth (as you've put it) of the trade until we see how Siemens and Rattie develop and that's without taking the fact that the other players involved in the trade aren't finished products either.

Personally I never liked Stewart and his maddening inconsistency and I'm a big fan of Siemens so I'm bound to look at the trade in a brighter light than you, but only one thing is for sure, only time can tell who got the shorter end of the stick in that trade.

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02-24-2013, 09:37 AM
  #679
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We can't know the truth (as you've put it) of the trade until we see how Siemens and Rattie develop and that's without taking the fact that the other players involved in the trade aren't finished products either.

Personally I never liked Stewart and his maddening inconsistency and I'm a big fan of Siemens so I'm bound to look at the trade in a brighter light than you, but only one thing is for sure, only time can tell who got the shorter end of the stick in that trade.
Yes, rationale. Of course the draft picks do carry some weight, but Siemens is going to *really* have to eclipse Rattie to start tilting this thing the Avs way. Or EJ will indeed have to become EK offensively. Or Shattenkirk would have to be launched into orbit or something.

And if the Avs trade Siemens for prospects in a few years, there'll inevitably be people saying that we need to wait for those prospects to develop before we really assess the trade. And so on, and so on. A self-fullfilling prophecy that has the nice tidy benefit of not actually having to look at results to date. Which of course is your right and anyone else's.

However, I choose to put some weight on today's results.

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02-24-2013, 09:43 AM
  #680
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Is Siemens and Rattie really that important to this trade really?

St Louis probably wouldn't have picked Siemens, we probably wouldn't have pick Rattie. Those odds are slim.

We traded Shatty, Stewart and a 2nd for EJ, Jay Mac and 1st. That's it. Then what actually happens with those picks in the future isn't a part of this trade.

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02-24-2013, 09:47 AM
  #681
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Is Siemens and Rattie really that important to this trade really?

St Louis probably wouldn't have picked Siemens, we probably wouldn't have pick Rattie. Those odds are slim.

We traded Shatty, Stewart and a 2nd for EJ, Jay Mac and 1st. That's it. Then what actually happens with those picks in the future isn't a part of this trade.
I agree. Which is why I am assessing the trade here and now.

Here's to hoping that EJ finds that offensive zone magic he showed as a teenager.

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02-24-2013, 09:50 AM
  #682
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Yes. Offensively, anyway.

Shattenkirk was scoring at a near 50 point pace as a rookie (on a crappy team, no less). That's really an accomplishment. Keith didn't do that. Karlsson didn't do it. Doughty didn't do it. Yandle didn't do it. EJ didn't do it. Suter didn't do it. Shea Weber didn't do it (though he came close). But Shattenkirk was scoring at that pace - so not only was the skill there, the production was already there. In short, the Avs had something special on their hands. I have no doubt that he would have grown from there on the Avs also.

Now, would he have grown as much defensively? Probably not, no. That was learned by Shattenkirk, and it probably wouldn't have taken place here - Hitchcock vs. Sacco and all that.



Worlds better. Defensively, they might not be much different, but from a goal scoring and transition standpoint, much better. (I'm just plugging him into the current defense there, which includes EJ).
I respect your opinion, but isn't that twisting the truth a little bit? After all Avs were a decent team overall before they got mowed down by injuries and embarked on their tank run. They were one of the highest scoring teams in the league (yes Shatty was a part of that offense), but they had a really poor defense (again Shatty was a part of that as well).

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Is Siemens and Rattie really that important to this trade really?

St Louis probably wouldn't have picked Siemens, we probably wouldn't have pick Rattie. Those odds are slim.

We traded Shatty, Stewart and a 2nd for EJ, Jay Mac and 1st. That's it. Then what actually happens with those picks in the future isn't a part of this trade.
Considering their huge hole on the left side (Cole plays on the top pairing even though he's more suited for a 3rd pairing role) I wouldn't be so sure about that.

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02-24-2013, 10:02 AM
  #683
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I respect your opinion, but isn't that twisting the truth a little bit? After all Avs were a decent team overall before they got mowed down by injuries and embarked on their tank run.


Well, I apologize if I inadvertently twisted the facts around, but I'm pretty sure they were a bad team at the date of the trade, even though they played a decent October/November.

The day of the trade, the Avs were 25-27-7 (a 79 point pace - which the last three years would have placed them 13th/14th in the WC - far out of the playoffs) - and having lost 10 games in a row, and having lost 20 of their last 26 games.


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02-24-2013, 10:12 AM
  #684
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Well, I'm pretty sure they were a bad team at the date of the trade, even though they played a decent October/November.

The day of the trade, the Avs were 25-27-7 (a 79 point pace - far out of the playoffs) - and having lost 10 games in a row, and having lost 20 of their last 26 games.
My point was that he padded his stats while Colorado was one of the highest scoring teams in the league alongside Chicago and Vancouver. Infact he didn'0t score a single point with the Avs in Febuary.

His game splits from HR:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...1/splits/2011/

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02-24-2013, 11:11 AM
  #685
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My point was that he padded his stats while Colorado was one of the highest scoring teams in the league alongside Chicago and Vancouver. Infact he didn'0t score a single point with the Avs in Febuary.

His game splits from HR:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...1/splits/2011/
Your stats are unassailable (and thank you for a new site for me to have fun with - it is bookmarked), as they are simple fact. I agree that it's an open question as to whether Shattenkirk could have reached 45-50 points in his rookie season, because (as you have shown) he was trending the wrong way as time went on.

However, can we now also apply those same standards (factual statistics and trending analysis) to Shattenkirk's/EJ's current/recent offensive production?

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02-24-2013, 11:12 AM
  #686
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Nice to see Shattenkirk playing at a Norris calibre and Stewart keep on scoring.

Nice work Sherm
How are you so critical of Sherman, but then start a thread to show Sacco some love, and cut him some slack? How does that work?

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02-24-2013, 11:33 AM
  #687
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Yes. Offensively, anyway.

Shattenkirk was scoring at a near 50 point pace as a rookie (on a crappy team, no less). That's really an accomplishment. Keith didn't do that. Karlsson didn't do it. Doughty didn't do it. Yandle didn't do it. EJ didn't do it. Suter didn't do it. Shea Weber didn't do it (though he came close). But Shattenkirk was scoring at that pace - so not only was the skill there, the production was already there.

In short, the Avs had something special on their hands.

I have no doubt that he would have grown from there on the Avs also. Now, would he have grown as much defensively? Probably not, no. That was learned by Shattenkirk, and it probably wouldn't have taken place here - Hitchcock vs. Sacco and all that.



Worlds better. Defensively, they might not be much different, but from a goal scoring and transition standpoint, much better. (I'm just plugging him into the current defense there, which includes EJ).
He was also -11 and on pace for 46 points. I don't know, the offense would have been great but that is a lot of minuses. At the point the Avs traded him he had 2 points in his previous 11 games and was -5. It is hard to say if he would have reached that 46 point pace if he stayed with the Avs. With the way the team was trending, as well as Shattenkirk, his rookie season could have looked a lot different. Most notably that +/- could have been a train wreck.

It's not like the team was a whole lot better the next year either. I just don't see Shattenkirk succeeding with the Avs like he has the Blues. He is on a better team, with a better system, and a better coach. He would have been the same defensive player I'm sure if he stayed under Sacco, and that player was racking up the minuses and got pretty exposed every now and then.

As it stands right now, he has two seasons at 43 points. And yes, he is having a pretty great season right now. But if you look at his first month in his rookie season, it was by far his best. Same thing is happening now. He had that great start, and is starting to slow down a bit. Perhaps the rest of the league is getting their legs under them. I'm curious to see his point totals at the end of the season, because I don't think they're going to look as godly as they do now. He'll still have a great season and will have his most productive season to date, but it's also a little strange this season. In the top 30 defensive scorers you have guys like Marc Staal, Cody Franson, Paul Martin, Fedor Tyutin, and Raphael Diaz, and missing guys like Chara, Doughty, Weber. The season just isn't long enough to bump them out without other players having excellent hot streaks. If you can get a great streak going, the numbers are going to look pretty impressive.

Personally, I'm just not sold on Shattenkirk becoming such an amazing offensive talent that it negates his defensive short comings, as well as making the trade looking like one of the worst in history. I know its all ifs, ands, or buts, but when you compare how he played on the Avs to how he plays in St. Louis, it is just hard to imagine he would make this team much better (EJ not being here).

The trade as a whole is another issue, because yes if the Avs were to trade Shattenkirk+Stewart today, they would most likely get more value than Johnson. Whether they would get a better defenceman, it's hard to say. The unfortunate part looking back on it now is Jay Mac. It's too bad they didn't target someone who could have been controlled longer, and it is not like he brought a whole lot of value. He would have been valuable on a contender, but he was kind of just wasted here because the Avs kept losing anyways.

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02-24-2013, 11:38 AM
  #688
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How are you so critical of Sherman, but then start a thread to show Sacco some love, and cut him some slack? How does that work?
He's blaming Sherman for Sacco's failures. It's actually not entirely off-base. But IMO they both need to go.

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02-24-2013, 03:07 PM
  #689
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He's blaming Sherman for Sacco's failures. It's actually not entirely off-base. But IMO they both need to go.
It's pretty off base IMO. I don't see what the big deal is, people just change their opinion every other month on the EJ trade, depending on how hot or cold Stewart is. I'll still take EJ over Shattenkirk as a top pairing D, so even if Stewart finds some consistency over an entire season, it's not really worth crying over IMO.

Other than that, what has he done that's so bad? Varly turned out to be a great deal. Flash was a good pickup before his illness. Mueller was a good pickup before Blake ran him through the glass. O'Byrne was a solid pickup up until this season. Hejda has played pretty well for the most part.

He didn't have a whole lot of options for D last summer, and I don't blame him for not wanting to match Suter and Carle's demands. Garrison clearly wanted to go to Vancouver.

Meanwhile Sacco hasn't found any sort of consistent success for the last three years. The team hasn't had any kind of real identity since his first season, and one of his best players in Stastny has gotten worse and worse under his watch. he can't get his best players to play at or near their best, the special teams are awful, division teams know how to pick him apart, and there's no semblance of a system, or real team game.

Meanwhille the Sens have had just as many injuries as us, but Maclean finds a way to get them to win games. If we had a real coach, Sherman would be looking like an absolute genius right now in all facets.

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02-24-2013, 03:25 PM
  #690
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It's pretty off base IMO. I don't see what the big deal is, people just change their opinion every other month on the EJ trade, depending on how hot or cold Stewart is. I'll still take EJ over Shattenkirk as a top pairing D, so even if Stewart finds some consistency over an entire season, it's not really worth crying over IMO.

Other than that, what has he done that's so bad? Varly turned out to be a great deal. Flash was a good pickup before his illness. Mueller was a good pickup before Blake ran him through the glass. O'Byrne was a solid pickup up until this season. Hejda has played pretty well for the most part.

He didn't have a whole lot of options for D last summer, and I don't blame him for not wanting to match Suter and Carle's demands. Garrison clearly wanted to go to Vancouver.

Meanwhile Sacco hasn't found any sort of consistent success for the last three years. The team hasn't had any kind of real identity since his first season, and one of his best players in Stastny has gotten worse and worse under his watch. he can't get his best players to play at or near their best, the special teams are awful, division teams know how to pick him apart, and there's no semblance of a system, or real team game.

Meanwhille the Sens have had just as many injuries as us, but Maclean finds a way to get them to win games. If we had a real coach, Sherman would be looking like an absolute genius right now in all facets.
Getting nothing in return for Mueller and Fleischmann was both bad luck and absolutely putrid asset management on the part of Sherman. We are rebuilding here. If you don't want to re-sign the guys, you better don't trade for them. Did we have bad luck with their injuries or medical conditions? Sure we did. Still no reason to be excited about selling off Hannan and Wolski for absolutely nothing. We essentially let them walk. Very bad asset management.

Liles trade was horrid. Hejda's deal is bad but atleast he took a chance. ROB trade was ok. Hunwick was horrible (just because he blocks a roster spot) and PAP cancels out Jones. Letting McClement walk was very bad. We are a rebuilding team for christ sake...
Anderson for Elliott was putrid. How on earth do you not get atleast a 3rd from Ottawa or another team in this trade? It is not like Elliott showed anything with OTT...
Varlamov was an overpayment where he got insanely lucky and worst of all not firing Sacco and letting the ROR situation get out of hand like this.
I am very indifferent on the EJ trade even though we probably lost this trade.
I only wonder if there was a possibility of somehow substituting Shattenkirk for a lesser piece and remove the pick swap or something. In hindsight we should have traded Stastny but eh...

His only really good moves where Winnik + Gali for McGinn and Sgar (and he totally had the SJ GM over a barrel there) and probably the Downie trade.

Biggest failure:
Any GM that holds onto Joe freaking Sacco should be canned together with him immediately...

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02-24-2013, 03:30 PM
  #691
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Getting nothing in return for Mueller and Fleischmann was both bad luck and absolutely putrid asset management on the part of Sherman. We are rebuilding here. If you don't want to re-sign the guys, you better don't trade for them. Did we have bad luck with their injuries or medical conditions? Sure we did. Still no reason to be excited about selling off Hannan and Wolski for absolutely nothing. We essentially let them walk. Very bad asset management.

Liles trade was horrid. Hejda's deal is bad but atleast he took a chance. ROB trade was ok. Hunwick was horrible (just because he blocks a roster spot) and PAP cancels out Jones. Letting McClement walk was very bad. We are a rebuilding team for christ sake...
Anderson for Elliott was putrid. How on earth do you not get atleast a 3rd from Ottawa or another team in this trade? It is not like Elliott showed anything with OTT...
Varlamov was an overpayment where he got insanely lucky and worst of all not firing Sacco and letting the ROR situation get out of hand like this.
I am very indifferent on the EJ trade even though we probably lost this trade.
I only wonder if there was a possibility of somehow substituting Shattenkirk for a lesser piece and remove the pick swap or something. In hindsight we should have traded Stastny but eh...

His only really good moves where Winnik + Gali for McGinn and Sgar (and he totally had the SJ GM over a barrel there) and probably the Downie trade.

Biggest failure:
Any GM that holds onto Joe freaking Sacco should be canned together with him immediately...
No GM was going to trade for Mueller with his Concussion history, and for Flash? Who knows, he got paid on the UFA market though.

And apparently Shattenkirk was the piece that the Blues wanted, they were apparently very high on him in his Draft year and that's who they wanted. The Avs thought that Elliott and/or Barrie would be able to replicate his Offensive stats, while keeping pace with the Defensive deficiencies that he brought to the table while with the Avs. Was it smart? Who knows, because we're seeing Barrie play with some confidence, and Elliott has all the Offensive tools, but is still very raw.

You're talking about "Asset Management" and Sherman being horrible, but then saying that the Liles trade was horrible. He did what you wanted him to do with Flash/Mules. The Avs decided that Liles wasn't in the plans anymore, and got a 2nd round pick for him, that was then used to get Varlamov, I like that deal.

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02-24-2013, 04:05 PM
  #692
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No GM was going to trade for Mueller with his Concussion history, and for Flash? Who knows, he got paid on the UFA market though.

And apparently Shattenkirk was the piece that the Blues wanted, they were apparently very high on him in his Draft year and that's who they wanted. The Avs thought that Elliott and/or Barrie would be able to replicate his Offensive stats, while keeping pace with the Defensive deficiencies that he brought to the table while with the Avs. Was it smart? Who knows, because we're seeing Barrie play with some confidence, and Elliott has all the Offensive tools, but is still very raw.

You're talking about "Asset Management" and Sherman being horrible, but then saying that the Liles trade was horrible. He did what you wanted him to do with Flash/Mules. The Avs decided that Liles wasn't in the plans anymore, and got a 2nd round pick for him, that was then used to get Varlamov, I like that deal.
Agreed, there was nothing he could've done on Flash. Dude went down with two pulmonary embolisms right when he was playing fantastic hockey. You can't trade an injured player. We can argue all we want whether Sherman should've retained him (personally I think the Avs made the right decision there) but to say we should've traded him is just plain silly. Avs at least flipped an expiring asset (Hannan) for short-term gains. That's good asset management. As for Mueller, again, don't see what you would've gotten for him.

HOWEVER, I say again the failure in asset management was not in trading away or letting key players like Liles, Mueller, and Flash walk, it's failing miserably to address the holes made in the lineup with those departures. If you keep Liles for one or two more seasons, he at least helps the team transition to Barrie and Elliott. Diss the guy all you want, but acquiring Brisebois took a ton of the puckmoving and PP QB duties off Liles and allowed him to develop at a normal pace. Now? Barrie and Elliott are being expected to spark a completely anemic offense. And even if Wilson and Johnson were still in the lineup, it still would be asking two rookies to do too much.

Also, I fail to see the logic in retaining Shane O'Brien when all you're going to do is scratch him continually. I don't care if he came into camp drunk with a stripper on each arm, I don't see why in hell he's not playing over guys who have done absolutely NOTHING out there. Re-signing him was a head-scratcher this offseason and it's downright exasperating now.

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02-24-2013, 04:10 PM
  #693
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He was also -11 and on pace for 46 points. I don't know, the offense would have been great but that is a lot of minuses. At the point the Avs traded him he had 2 points in his previous 11 games and was -5. It is hard to say if he would have reached that 46 point pace if he stayed with the Avs. With the way the team was trending, as well as Shattenkirk, his rookie season could have looked a lot different. Most notably that +/- could have been a train wreck.
Sorry if it's a discussion killer, but I'm one of those people who puts zero stock into +/-. Zero. The only possible usefulness of that stat, is to use it to compare: 1) Players on the same team, 2) at the same position, 3) with similar responsibilities. So, comparing Shattenkirk's with Liles' that season is as close to pertinent as that stat comes. But in general, it's completely useless. And a quick glance tells me that all of the defensemen had pretty bad +/-'s. *shrug*

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02-24-2013, 04:12 PM
  #694
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Getting nothing in return for Mueller and Fleischmann was both bad luck and absolutely putrid asset management on the part of Sherman. We are rebuilding here. If you don't want to re-sign the guys, you better don't trade for them. Did we have bad luck with their injuries or medical conditions? Sure we did. Still no reason to be excited about selling off Hannan and Wolski for absolutely nothing. We essentially let them walk. Very bad asset management.

Liles trade was horrid. Hejda's deal is bad but atleast he took a chance. ROB trade was ok. Hunwick was horrible (just because he blocks a roster spot) and PAP cancels out Jones. Letting McClement walk was very bad. We are a rebuilding team for christ sake...
Anderson for Elliott was putrid. How on earth do you not get atleast a 3rd from Ottawa or another team in this trade? It is not like Elliott showed anything with OTT...
Varlamov was an overpayment where he got insanely lucky and worst of all not firing Sacco and letting the ROR situation get out of hand like this.
I am very indifferent on the EJ trade even though we probably lost this trade.
I only wonder if there was a possibility of somehow substituting Shattenkirk for a lesser piece and remove the pick swap or something. In hindsight we should have traded Stastny but eh...

His only really good moves where Winnik + Gali for McGinn and Sgar (and he totally had the SJ GM over a barrel there) and probably the Downie trade.

Biggest failure:
Any GM that holds onto Joe freaking Sacco should be canned together with him immediately...
Some good points in there. I think you're going to find a lot of Sherman apologists and rationalizing of Sherman's moves in response to your post. I don't get it either, but as long as lots of Avs fans feel that way, Sherman (and therefore, Sacco) are safe.

Meh, they're probably safe anyway, as long as PL is in charge.

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02-24-2013, 04:25 PM
  #695
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Some good points in there. I think you're going to find a lot of Sherman apologists and rationalizing of Sherman's moves in response to your post. I don't get it either, but as long as lots of Avs fans feel that way, Sherman (and therefore, Sacco) are safe.

Meh, they're probably safe anyway, as long as PL is in charge.
LOL, as if our opinion matters in the least.

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02-24-2013, 04:55 PM
  #696
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Sorry if it's a discussion killer, but I'm one of those people who puts zero stock into +/-. Zero. The only possible usefulness of that stat, is to use it to compare: 1) Players on the same team, 2) at the same position, 3) with similar responsibilities. So, comparing Shattenkirk's with Liles' that season is as close to pertinent as that stat comes. But in general, it's completely useless. And a quick glance tells me that all of the defensemen had pretty bad +/-'s. *shrug*
Fair enough. I was just pointing out that as great as he is offensively, if he stayed on the Avs, at the end of the day he was going to be out for a lot more goals against than goals for.

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02-24-2013, 05:01 PM
  #697
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Getting nothing in return for Mueller and Fleischmann was both bad luck and absolutely putrid asset management on the part of Sherman. We are rebuilding here. If you don't want to re-sign the guys, you better don't trade for them. Did we have bad luck with their injuries or medical conditions? Sure we did. Still no reason to be excited about selling off Hannan and Wolski for absolutely nothing. We essentially let them walk. Very bad asset management.

Liles trade was horrid. Hejda's deal is bad but atleast he took a chance. ROB trade was ok. Hunwick was horrible (just because he blocks a roster spot) and PAP cancels out Jones. Letting McClement walk was very bad. We are a rebuilding team for christ sake...
Anderson for Elliott was putrid. How on earth do you not get atleast a 3rd from Ottawa or another team in this trade? It is not like Elliott showed anything with OTT...
Varlamov was an overpayment where he got insanely lucky and worst of all not firing Sacco and letting the ROR situation get out of hand like this.
I am very indifferent on the EJ trade even though we probably lost this trade.
I only wonder if there was a possibility of somehow substituting Shattenkirk for a lesser piece and remove the pick swap or something. In hindsight we should have traded Stastny but eh...

His only really good moves where Winnik + Gali for McGinn and Sgar (and he totally had the SJ GM over a barrel there) and probably the Downie trade.

Biggest failure:
Any GM that holds onto Joe freaking Sacco should be canned together with him immediately...
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Some good points in there. I think you're going to find a lot of Sherman apologists and rationalizing of Sherman's moves in response to your post. I don't get it either, but as long as lots of Avs fans feel that way, Sherman (and therefore, Sacco) are safe.

Meh, they're probably safe anyway, as long as PL is in charge.
I find pretty much all of these things, and this mindset a result of trying to find someone to blame for losing. It's way to critical over minor moves, that they either couldn't help, or wouldn't have really solved this teams problems.

This team has plenty of wingers. I'll easily take McGinn over Mueller with his injury history. No one was giving up any real assets for Mueller. A team like Florida would only gamble on him for free. There just wasn't much reason to keep him, rather than move forward as an organization and open up a spot for a guy like McGinn. So the asset management argument doesn't hold much water here. He's only been healthy for 17 games anyway.

Same with Flash. He almost had a re-occurance of his blood clot issue playing one game in Colorado last year, so it's pretty clear playing here wasn't a real option. Even if he would have, it would have been very dangerous from the sound of it. Not much the Avs could do.

Liles is a who cares kind of situation. It's obvious they have a need for a puck mover, but apart from looking at things from a shortsighted POV, would having him on the team really solve this team's problems? They had problems when he was here. They wanted to turn the page and open up his spot. They had higher expectations for Elliott and Barrie than they should have, and got a 2nd for him. Now everyone appears to love Barrie, so what's the big deal? Who cares. It was a year off in their rebuild plan. Meanwhile Liles has been scratched like four games in a row for a team with a poor D unit of it's own.

Anderson for Elliott was bad, but clearly no one else wanted him. He had all but packed it in for the rest of the year, and the Avs didn't like that attitude and wouldn't have re-signed him. They have Varly now, so who really cares.

Varly was an overpayment at the time, but it worked so once again, who cares. How is it fair to be critical of him for the moves that didn't work out, and the ones that did? That's what I mean by trying too hard to lay blame on him.

There clearly wasn't an option to make the EJ trade without Shattenkirk. This is nitpicking again IMO. They didn't have any young defenseman of interest, and Barrie and Elliott held very little value at the time. That was the only way to get it done, and to get a 1st back was pretty impressive as well.

You can't say McGinn and Downie were the only good moves. Varly was clearly good, and smaller ones like O'Byrne, Flash, and Mueller worked well for a while too. How many moves do you expect a GM to make? That's a lot over the course of a few years. If he was making any more risky trades, it would be reckless.

It's just an issue of being uber critical, and thinking every move is gonna be perfect. There's gonna be some that don't work out, but he's doing fine patching holes with guys like McGinn and Downie which were great deals, he just needs to find a way to bring in some top level players which is way easier said than done.

He will be judged on his return for O'Reilly though. That likely will define his tenure here, and either get him fired, or earn him praise.

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02-24-2013, 06:09 PM
  #698
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I find pretty much all of these things, and this mindset a result of trying to find someone to blame for losing. It's way to critical over minor moves, that they either couldn't help, or wouldn't have really solved this teams problems.

This team has plenty of wingers. I'll easily take McGinn over Mueller with his injury history. No one was giving up any real assets for Mueller. A team like Florida would only gamble on him for free. There just wasn't much reason to keep him, rather than move forward as an organization and open up a spot for a guy like McGinn. So the asset management argument doesn't hold much water here. He's only been healthy for 17 games anyway.

Same with Flash. He almost had a re-occurance of his blood clot issue playing one game in Colorado last year, so it's pretty clear playing here wasn't a real option. Even if he would have, it would have been very dangerous from the sound of it. Not much the Avs could do.

Liles is a who cares kind of situation. It's obvious they have a need for a puck mover, but apart from looking at things from a shortsighted POV, would having him on the team really solve this team's problems? They had problems when he was here. They wanted to turn the page and open up his spot. They had higher expectations for Elliott and Barrie than they should have, and got a 2nd for him. Now everyone appears to love Barrie, so what's the big deal? Who cares. It was a year off in their rebuild plan. Meanwhile Liles has been scratched like four games in a row for a team with a poor D unit of it's own.

Anderson for Elliott was bad, but clearly no one else wanted him. He had all but packed it in for the rest of the year, and the Avs didn't like that attitude and wouldn't have re-signed him. They have Varly now, so who really cares.

Varly was an overpayment at the time, but it worked so once again, who cares. How is it fair to be critical of him for the moves that didn't work out, and the ones that did? That's what I mean by trying too hard to lay blame on him.

There clearly wasn't an option to make the EJ trade without Shattenkirk. This is nitpicking again IMO. They didn't have any young defenseman of interest, and Barrie and Elliott held very little value at the time. That was the only way to get it done, and to get a 1st back was pretty impressive as well.

You can't say McGinn and Downie were the only good moves. Varly was clearly good, and smaller ones like O'Byrne, Flash, and Mueller worked well for a while too. How many moves do you expect a GM to make? That's a lot over the course of a few years. If he was making any more risky trades, it would be reckless.

It's just an issue of being uber critical, and thinking every move is gonna be perfect. There's gonna be some that don't work out, but he's doing fine patching holes with guys like McGinn and Downie which were great deals, he just needs to find a way to bring in some top level players which is way easier said than done.

He will be judged on his return for O'Reilly though. That likely will define his tenure here, and either get him fired, or earn him praise.
Why is this O'Reilly situation any different? I say we keep rationalizing and apologizing for him.

"No, regardless of the return, what could Sherman do in that situation? You had a player who refused to play for the team, the league was in a shortened season, and everyone was looking at the next season where the salary cap went down, so there were no viable trade partners. Sherman simply had to take ScrubPlayerX, because there was no other choice. It's not Sherman's fault - he's a good GM and did the best he could in a bad situation."

See?

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02-24-2013, 06:22 PM
  #699
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Why is this O'Reilly situation any different? I say we keep rationalizing and apologizing for him.

"No, regardless of the return, what could Sherman do in that situation? You had a player who refused to play for the team, the league was in a shortened season, and everyone was looking at the next season where the salary cap went down, so there were no viable trade partners. Sherman simply had to take ScrubPlayerX, because there was no other choice. It's not Sherman's fault - he's a good GM and did the best he could in a bad situation."

See?
O'Reilly's situation is so unique and different, it has nothing to do with the Varly trade, or the EJ trade, or McGinn, or Downie, or O'Byrne.

What shoud he have done instead? All I see are critiques based most likely on the lack of success from the team. At least he's taking chances and being proactive and making moves.

What moves should have been done or not done that would really go a long way to fixing this team's problems, or make them better in the future? I'll just answer a few right now. Liles no. Mueller, no. Flash, no. Stewart and Shatty, maybe at best. Still would have a strong need for a D like EJ.

Apart from being upset that this young re-building team hasn't taken the next step, what realistically would have made this team better?

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02-24-2013, 08:21 PM
  #700
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I'm surprised there isn't more love for the PAP and Mitchell signings.

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