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2014 Olympics and the NHL (UPD: NHL, NHLPA, IIHF, IOC meeting this week)

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02-22-2013, 09:55 PM
  #326
cutchemist42
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http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey..._idea_cox.html

Cox article on the cash-grab World Cup.

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02-23-2013, 01:12 AM
  #327
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http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey..._idea_cox.html

Cox article on the cash-grab World Cup.
And the olympics and world cup is not aout making money? dokay.

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02-23-2013, 07:15 AM
  #328
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And the olympics and world cup is not aout making money? dokay.
The league nor players don't make money from the Olympics but in turn get much greater worldwide exposure than a World Cup ever would.

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02-23-2013, 12:51 PM
  #329
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I have to admit to being a little concerned that there is no announcement yet.

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02-23-2013, 01:43 PM
  #330
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If that is true who benefits from it? In terms of this discussion I think it is only the IOC. The IIHF and national hockey federations get very little if any of the profits from the Olympics and I highly doubt that any significant number of those people from China play or follow the sport otherwise.
Why does it matter who benefits from it? Whether it's the IOC or the IIHF I don't see why it's important. I don't work for either of those organizations, so that doesn't effect me.

The simple fact of the matter is that being a part of the Olympic programme is much better for the sport than if it were to put all it's apples in the basket of a non-existent "best-on-best" tournament which would more likely than not be a complete flop, or at best successful in hockey countries (even this is doubtful, Americans for example have absolutely no interest in international competition outside of the Olympics in any sport, except maybe the soccer world cup) yet completely irrelevant across the greater reach of the world, unlike the Olympics which automatically give the sport multitudes more credibility and media reach.

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If the IIHF had their own best on best tournament every fours years it might start to get some attention in non hockey countries as well, plus that way they would have control of the profits.
How on earth would the availability of players from four more NHL teams make that much of a difference between this hypothetical future tournament and the World Championships? Just because it's every 4 years instead of 1? I'm not sure how having it LESS often, which means LESS exposure, would mean gaining more attention from non-hockey countries.

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So no we're switching the discussion from international hockey events to comparing the WBC to the whole Olympics? Ok....
You say that as if the hockey tournament (at the Olympics) is somehow separate from the Olympic competition as a whole. The reach and exposure of the Olympics is why the hockey tournament within it is so valuable to the sport. In the majority of IIHF member nations, hockey is supported and even known about in the first place because of it's place among the Olympic sports.

Now I don't really believe the Winter Games could afford to dump hockey altogether because of the lack of winter sports, but I just don't understand why people want to take away the best players (and therefore the highest level of the sport) out of the sport's biggest international stage where the game is most likely to be seen and appreciated the world over and take them to a completely different and completely irrelevant competition.


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02-23-2013, 04:51 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Why does it matter who benefits from it? Whether it's the IOC or the IIHF I don't see why it's important. I don't work for either of those organizations, so that doesn't effect me.

The simple fact of the matter is that being a part of the Olympic programme is much better for the sport than if it were to put all it's apples in the basket of a non-existent "best-on-best" tournament which would more likely than not be a complete flop, or at best successful in hockey countries (even this is doubtful, Americans for example have absolutely no interest in international competition outside of the Olympics in any sport, except maybe the soccer world cup) yet completely irrelevant across the greater reach of the world, unlike the Olympics which automatically give the sport multitudes more credibility and media reach.
If the IIHF created their own best on best tournament it could certainly become hugely successfull. It might take a bit of time but other sports have done it, and hockey could too.

The reason why economic beneifts are so important is because the periodic exposure to a sport is not enough to stimulate any significant amount of growth (if growth is important to you). The Superbowl is the perfect example of this.

However if the profits of a best on best tournament stay within hockey then a lot of the money can be used for grassroots programs. Again there is only so much the IIHF can do. The most important thing for growing the sport is in giving people the day in and day out exposure that a league provides, but investment in minor hockey programs certainly doesn't hurt.

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02-23-2013, 05:29 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If the IIHF created their own best on best tournament it could certainly become hugely successfull. It might take a bit of time but other sports have done it, and hockey could too.

The reason why economic beneifts are so important is because the periodic exposure to a sport is not enough to stimulate any significant amount of growth (if growth is important to you). The Superbowl is the perfect example of this.

However if the profits of a best on best tournament stay within hockey then a lot of the money can be used for grassroots programs. Again there is only so much the IIHF can do. The most important thing for growing the sport is in giving people the day in and day out exposure that a league provides, but investment in minor hockey programs certainly doesn't hurt.
You didn't explain why or how an IIHF-run "best-on-best" tournament would be more successful than the World Championships.

From your description the only differences would be players from the four NHL teams still playing during the WHC being eligible (big deal), and it being every 4 years instead of 1.

I don't think those are big enough differences for the IIHF to scrap their already successful World Championships for a completely new tournament, one that would be held less often and therefore most likely not make them anywhere near as much money.

On top of that, how do you get the NHL to shut down for it if they don't want to shut down for the Olympics? If the IIHF pays the NHL to shut down, then they're making even LESS money which is another reason they would have no interest in such a tournament.

Personally I'm fine with the World Championships, and so are most people considering it has been taking place without a hitch since 1930. Why we even need a "best-on-best" tournament is beyond me. If that's what people want, tell the NHL to end the season earlier. Or make sure the NHL plays at the Olympics.

The problem isn't the international hockey schedule, it is the NHL.


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02-24-2013, 07:07 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
You didn't explain why or how an IIHF-run "best-on-best" tournament would be more successful than the World Championships.

From your description the only differences would be players from the four NHL teams still playing during the WHC being eligible (big deal), and it being every 4 years instead of 1.

I don't think those are big enough differences for the IIHF to scrap their already successful World Championships for a completely new tournament, one that would be held less often and therefore most likely not make them anywhere near as much money.
To be honest being more successful than the WC shouldn't be that hard. The split in the hockey world in terms of players and fans is roughly 70% NA and 30% Europe. As you know the current WC's popularity is pretty much limited to Europe and even then it is much less popular in Europe than our current best on best tournament, i.e. the OG.

There are a number of reasons the WC in its current format will never be big in hockey's largest markets (NA), so starting with something fresh and new would be required. First of all I would get rid of all-star games and use that break instead for international play. Every four years I would have an extended break for a full b on b tournament, and in the other three years I would use the break for qualification or friendly games. By having full control over the format and most importantly location of these games the IIHF could easily surpass the revenue they collect from the existing WC system.

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On top of that, how do you get the NHL to shut down for it if they don't want to shut down for the Olympics? If the IIHF pays the NHL to shut down, then they're making even LESS money which is another reason they would have no interest in such a tournament.
The NHL has already shown it is willing to shut down for the Olympics. I think a fair system that the NHL would go for would be by alternating the host city every four years between NA and Europe. I wouldn't mind if some of the revenues from the tournament went to the leagues as compensation for shutting down. I don't think you would have to pay them much, maybe some formula based on the number of players from each league participating in the tournament would work. Again, remember that the IIHF and national hockey federations get basically zero revenue from the OG as it is now.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Personally I'm fine with the World Championships, and so are most people considering it has been taking place without a hitch since 1930. Why we even need a "best-on-best" tournament is beyond me. If that's what people want, tell the NHL to end the season earlier. Or make sure the NHL plays at the Olympics.
That's great, but I think the current system could be greatly improved, and since most hockey fans don't care about the WC, I don't think I am alone.

You sure post alot in these threads for someone who is not interested in b on b tournaments. All I can say is that as a fan they are something I enjoy watching.

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02-24-2013, 07:45 AM
  #334
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I am not even sure why IIHF would want to cater to NA fans by ditching WC. Makes no sense since NA haven't got much interest in international play unless they have some sort of "best on best" format, which isn't the point of international play.

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02-24-2013, 08:39 AM
  #335
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I am not even sure why IIHF would want to cater to NA fans by ditching WC. Makes no sense since NA haven't got much interest in international play unless they have some sort of "best on best" format, which isn't the point of international play.
I think we both agree that North Americans don't care much about the WC. One of the reasons I don't like having an annual WC is I think it is too often and it cheapens the idea of international championships. Maybe a good compromise would be renaming it the European Championships and not having Canada and the US involved. What do you think?

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02-24-2013, 08:46 AM
  #336
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I think we both agree that North Americans don't care much about the WC. One of the reasons I don't like having an annual WC is I think it is too often and it cheapens the idea of international championships. Maybe a good compromise would be renaming it the European Championships and not having Canada and the US involved. What do you think?
That makes even less sense. Having US and Canada involved makes the tournament better. So while NA might not care, it makes the tournament more entertaining for audience in Europe.

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02-24-2013, 09:04 AM
  #337
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I think we both agree that North Americans don't care much about the WC. One of the reasons I don't like having an annual WC is I think it is too often and it cheapens the idea of international championships. Maybe a good compromise would be renaming it the European Championships and not having Canada and the US involved. What do you think?



I actually think it's a great idea. Wish it would happen. And I've been to 3 WHC in Europe and enjoyed them all...but if N.America stopped participating, I wouldn't mind one bit. The only thing is though the IIHF will respond with "We'll ok then, we won't play in your World Cup." and how do you seed groupings for Olympics if Canada/USA only international play is the Olympics. Unfortunately we are stuck with what we got. There will be one WHC dropped though 1 every 4 years. 4 year international calendar is coming. 1. Olympics 2. World Cup. World Championship 3 years (dropped in an Olympic year) but there will be sometime of expanded European championship in that year which the WHC is dropped.

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02-24-2013, 12:44 PM
  #338
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That makes even less sense. Having US and Canada involved makes the tournament better. So while NA might not care, it makes the tournament more entertaining for audience in Europe.
I'm just curious how badly you think hockey fans in Europe would miss Canada and the USA if they weren't in the tournament? Couldn't it still be successful if it was just the European teams?

Here's the thing, even in Europe the WC struggles at times to attract fans and in NA it is almost completely irrelevant. Right now I would guess that 75% or more of the world's hockeys fans don't care for the WC, which is unfortunate given that it is the IIHF's marquee tournament. I just think unless people bring some fresh new ideas to the table we will be stuck in the same quagmire for ever and ever.

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02-24-2013, 12:53 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
[/B]

I actually think it's a great idea. Wish it would happen. And I've been to 3 WHC in Europe and enjoyed them all...but if N.America stopped participating, I wouldn't mind one bit. The only thing is though the IIHF will respond with "We'll ok then, we won't play in your World Cup." and how do you seed groupings for Olympics if Canada/USA only international play is the Olympics. Unfortunately we are stuck with what we got. There will be one WHC dropped though 1 every 4 years. 4 year international calendar is coming. 1. Olympics 2. World Cup. World Championship 3 years (dropped in an Olympic year) but there will be sometime of expanded European championship in that year which the WHC is dropped.
That might be true, but what I am proposing is that the IIHF organize their own best on best tournament in place of having pros at the Olympics. Unfortunately I can't give this new tournament a name because if I called it the World Championships or World Cup most people would associate it with the old tournaments by those names, even though they wouldn't have to be related to the new tournament I am proposing in any way.

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02-24-2013, 12:59 PM
  #340
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[/B]

I actually think it's a great idea. Wish it would happen. And I've been to 3 WHC in Europe and enjoyed them all...but if N.America stopped participating, I wouldn't mind one bit. The only thing is though the IIHF will respond with "We'll ok then, we won't play in your World Cup." and how do you seed groupings for Olympics if Canada/USA only international play is the Olympics. Unfortunately we are stuck with what we got. There will be one WHC dropped though 1 every 4 years. 4 year international calendar is coming. 1. Olympics 2. World Cup. World Championship 3 years (dropped in an Olympic year) but there will be sometime of expanded European championship in that year which the WHC is dropped.
No there won't. There also won't be a World Cup nor will there Worlds dropped (unless they some how include promotion and relegation in the Olympics).

As if USA hockey or Hockey Canada would drop out of Worlds...

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02-24-2013, 01:23 PM
  #341
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I'm just curious how badly you think hockey fans in Europe would miss Canada and the USA if they weren't in the tournament? Couldn't it still be successful if it was just the European teams?

Here's the thing, even in Europe the WC struggles at times to attract fans and in NA it is almost completely irrelevant. Right now I would guess that 75% or more of the world's hockeys fans don't care for the WC, which is unfortunate given that it is the IIHF's marquee tournament. I just think unless people bring some fresh new ideas to the table we will be stuck in the same quagmire for ever and ever.
What is the problem with Europe liking WHC ? There is no good reason to not participate in it other than NA fans don't watch it. I have never heard Finns advocating that we don't send a team to world juniors. And while WHC doesn't always get good attendance it's still popular. NA fans always say that its the logo in front not the name on back that matters, but when its WHC all they can think of is " Crosby not here this sucks !!"

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02-24-2013, 01:43 PM
  #342
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I know I have said this in at least one of the other 200 odd threads (who knows maybe even earlier in this one) dealing with same topics but I am thinking the first two national federations that would object to the idea of excluding Canada and the US from the WC would belong to the countries of... well... Canada and the US.

I also don't see the WC going away in Olympic years. The WC is the main cash cow for the IIHF. I wouldn't expect the NHL (or any other league) to shorten their season in Olympic years so I am not sure why we should expect the IIHF to cancel their entire 'crown jewel' tournament. The way the tournament ladder is currently structured skipping every 4th year would also mess things up, especially for the smaller nations that aren't playing in the Olympics. Finally, for all the talk about no one caring about the WC I would be willing to bet it can more often than not lay claim to having the largest audience for any single hockey game in the calendar year.

At this point I am pretty much resigned to international hockey remaining a hodge-podge of tournaments. The situation is hardly perfect but it isn't the end of the world either.


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02-24-2013, 02:47 PM
  #343
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No there won't. There also won't be a World Cup nor will there Worlds dropped (unless they some how include promotion and relegation in the Olympics).

As if USA hockey or Hockey Canada would drop out of Worlds...
I didn't say they would. I said I wouldn't be all that broken up about it if they did. I suggest you google proposals for an international hockey calendar post Sochi, as there are some suggestions out there for exactly what I wrote and those proposing it are from European federations, one in particular. You can do the research. It doesn't mean anything will change in 2014, I'm just saying there are all kinds of people making suggestions.

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02-24-2013, 03:52 PM
  #344
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No there won't. There also won't be a World Cup nor will there Worlds dropped (unless they some how include promotion and relegation in the Olympics).

As if USA hockey or Hockey Canada would drop out of Worlds...
I agree it is unlikely, but not impossible. Let's face it, the IIHF needs Canada and the US a lot more than they need the IIHF. I heard Bob Nicholson interviewed on a local radio station last year and he said that one of his concerns was that having a World Championship every year was too often. Also if you check your hockey history you will see that Canada did withdraw from the WC for an extended period. You can find the details on wiki if you want to learn more.

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02-24-2013, 03:57 PM
  #345
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What is the problem with Europe liking WHC ? There is no good reason to not participate in it other than NA fans don't watch it. I have never heard Finns advocating that we don't send a team to world juniors. And while WHC doesn't always get good attendance it's still popular. NA fans always say that its the logo in front not the name on back that matters, but when its WHC all they can think of is " Crosby not here this sucks !!"
The problem is not that Europe likes the WC, the problem is that only Europe likes the WC. People talk all the time about growing the game. How on earth is the IIHF going to help grow the game if they can't even produce a product that appeals to most existing fans.

As for the logo thing I don't think you understand how Canadians feel. As a fan I want to see the best go head to head against the best, the name of the tournament is not the important thing.

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02-24-2013, 06:10 PM
  #346
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Could you do a modified WHC that excluded the teams that already played in that year's Olympics? It still gives those teams a chance to play that year and you know the teams in the Olympics atleast 12-14 months before they happen.

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02-24-2013, 06:27 PM
  #347
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If the pros stop going to the Olympics after 2014 I would have no problem with Canada withdrawing for the World Championships. The rankings wouldn't mean anything after that.

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02-24-2013, 06:32 PM
  #348
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I am not even sure why IIHF would want to cater to NA fans by ditching WC. Makes no sense since NA haven't got much interest in international play unless they have some sort of "best on best" format, which isn't the point of international play.
Then why call it "The World Championships"?

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02-24-2013, 08:59 PM
  #349
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Then why call it "The World Championships"?
World best hockey nations play with the cards they are dealt with. Some players don't wanna participate, some are unable to because of injuries / lack of interest, some are still in playoffs.

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02-25-2013, 04:03 AM
  #350
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If the pros stop going to the Olympics after 2014 I would have no problem with Canada withdrawing for the World Championships. The rankings wouldn't mean anything after that.
The pros will not stop going to the Olympics after 2014.

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