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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-24-2013, 02:27 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I've got part of that, but not all of it. I don't see why the Atlantic has to take Carolina if it wants Washington. But you're saying that Karmanos' to keep the Hurricanes from being part of the NE is what's forcing the Florida teams into the NE contrary to what the Florida teams want and what some of the NE want.
The teams in Florida don't have the same pull with the league, and they know they have to stick with each other. They're not going to split them so that the other two eastern conferences take one of each.

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02-24-2013, 02:27 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Hawks have never had any rivalry with Winnipeg
They were Norris division rivals, albeit very briefly.

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02-24-2013, 02:29 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by chasespace View Post
You have two teams who are completely removed from the rest of the division, you actually have to pass an entire division to get to them. It makes more sense to take the two northernmost teams in the "Atlantic" conference and move them into into the northern one while adding Tampa to the Atlantic conference.
You have the Rangers, Flyers, and Penguins in that Atlantic group. NY is the center of the world, the Flyers have one of the most powerful owners, and Pittsburgh has the face of the league currently playing, and one of the great players of all time involved in ownership. Those 3 franchises are going to get what they want.

I imagine the only thing that could happen would be the old Patrick + TB and Fla. But if the Flyers/Rangers/Penguins don't want that, it won't happen.

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02-24-2013, 02:32 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The teams in Florida don't have the same pull with the league, and they know they have to stick with each other. They're not going to split them so that the other two eastern conferences take one of each.
Well clearly, GKJ. But your argument in the previous post was that Karmanos is the force behind putting the Hurricanes (and thus the Blue Jackets) in the Atlantic and having the Florida teams put in the NE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
You have the Rangers, Flyers, and Penguins in that Atlantic group. NY is the center of the world, the Flyers have one of the most powerful owners, and Pittsburgh has the face of the league currently playing, and one of the great players of all time involved in ownership. Those 3 franchises are going to get what they want.

I imagine the only thing that could happen would be the old Patrick + TB and Fla. But if the Flyers/Rangers/Penguins don't want that, it won't happen.
There you go. That's what I'm thinking. I don't know about Karmanos and what influence he has, but that Atlantic Division group has owners who we all know have great influence; and I feel sure that the Florida teams are being pushed into the NE because that Atlantic group doesn't want them. Any role that Karmanos is playing is likely that of the pawn that the Atlantic is using to force to Florida to NE grouping.

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02-24-2013, 02:42 PM
  #180
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I don't like this...

Seattle has a VERY slim chance of working.... They won't even be the primary tennants of the new building, which hasn't even broken ground yet, meanwhile Quebec's arena will be 12 months into the process of building by the time they do break ground in Seattle... Lastly, There has been TOO much talk of seattle, which leads me to believe that this entire relocation to seattle will never happen...

Columbus should be in the east, and Detroit should be in the west. Simple as that. This makes it 15 each. Beyond that, QC gets a 16th team...

I still see Hartford as a viable market in the next 3 years...

Lastly, Mr Bettman does NOT want an NHL team playing in Key Arena..

ALso, check this out:
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1460

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02-24-2013, 02:42 PM
  #181
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Can't see Chicago being real happy with the idea that they're the only O6 team now in the "West", all other 06 teams are in east. Interesting that they've found a way to put both CLB and DET in the "East"-perhaps that's the tradeoff of having two more teams to "fight through" to get through the playoffs (all Columbus jokes aside)-visually it looks 'easier" for West teams to make the playoffs.

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02-24-2013, 02:44 PM
  #182
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Anyway we can swap the Florida teams for the Red Wings and Hawks? Woukd that make any geographic sense

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02-24-2013, 02:49 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The teams in Florida don't have the same pull with the league,
I would imagine that Vinik has some measure of pull, given that he was their "White Knight" post Koules-Barrie debacle and one of the "New Blood" representatives during negotiations with the PA during Lockout

But perhaps that pull may only translate to "We'll take it under advisement, Mr. Vinik" when it comes to, uh, larger matters.

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02-24-2013, 02:49 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by NJDevils7 View Post
I still do not get what is wrong with something like this...

Looks good, other than the fact that the logo representing Winnipeg is wrong.

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02-24-2013, 02:51 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
It sucks for PHX, FLA, TB, QC, hopes for TOR2.

I expect this: relocation of PHX to Portland, expansion to Seattle. Eastern Canadian owners hoping to poach BOTH FLA teams
Basicly you are expecting no team movements and/or expansions for the next 10 years.

Also notice how Phoenix could be switched with Seattle and not change a thing.

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02-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #186
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As a Hawks fan it sucks to lose Detroit, but at the same time they gain Minnesota as a rival. Plus, it will be nice to get a home game against every other Original Six team.

As an NHL fan, I really like this, makes a ton of sense. Have two questions though:

1. What will the playoff format be?

2. What the hell happens if Phoenix moves to Quebec City?

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02-24-2013, 02:53 PM
  #187
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No matter what the NHL does, some teams are not going to be happy, just can't please everyone. But after having Winnipeg in the SE for two seasons, no team has the right to complain, because no matter what the new divisions look like, no one is going to get screwed like that.

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02-24-2013, 02:55 PM
  #188
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There's one thing that has me puzzled about this alignment proposal.. what's the deal with QC?

If they expand or relo to QC, we've got a case of too many teams in the eastern conferences again. So who moves?

Detroit won't. If they get this, and the NE teams get them, they aren't going to let go. I have a strong feeling that Detroit was moved into this conference to placate both the Florida and the Canadian markets who were displeased with the last alignment. Detroit is one of the few big teams that are an attractive division rival for both Canadian and US teams, so they help 'bridge' that conference.

However, QC would certainly go in the Northeast, so something's gotta give there. It's unlikely they break up the Florida teams (though I wouldn't be opposed to it), and more importantly the all powerful folks in the Atlantic don't seem to want them. I think this means that either Buffalo or Boston gets sent to the Atlantic. Both conferences would prefer Boston over Buffalo, but I don't think either conference would be unhappy with either team.

This leaves us with an odd man out in the Atlantic. The obvious choice becomes Columbus. Given that they're likely also one of the least powerful teams, they probably get the boot and the Central gets them. There aren't any real targets for a relo in the east; the most financially unstable (Islanders, Panthers, CBJ) are all on long lease deals that would be quite expensive to break, afaik.

But then, if they intend to only keep the BJs around in the Atlantic a couple years, why bother putting them there at all? Why not keep them in the central? Certainly the BJ owners would see this as obvious enough that they wouldn't want to get cranked around.

As unpopular as a suggestion as this might be, given the proposed alignment, the only conclusion I can come to is that expansion or relocation to Quebec is far from a 'done deal.' The NHL may very well have their eyes west of the Mississippi for any relo/expansion, and there are at least 3 valid untapped markets. It could be QC gets a team only if they either pay an exorbitant fee or the NHL's preferred options in the west don't pan out (Seattle, Houston, KC, maybe Las Vegas, maybe others). In that case, CBJ would get moved.

The other possibility is that the NHL are expecting an eastern team to need a relo by the time expansion rolls around, in spite of any lease agreements. But that actually seems the less likely possibility at this point.

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02-24-2013, 02:55 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icedog2735 View Post
I think crossover formats and proposal made by some on here are very unnecessarily complicated. It seems like with this alignment and the Hotstove report, 4 out of 7 teams in the "Western" and "Central" conferences will make the playoffs and 5 out of 8 teams in the "Northeastern" and "Atlantic" conferences will make the playoffs. Wild Card to me implies a baseball-style short series between the 4th and 5th in those two conferences. Divisional playoffs in the first two rounds are here whether most like it or not.
The concept of a play-in here is, by definition, unnecessarily complicated and, furthermore, punishes the fourth-place teams in divisions where it's already more difficult to land in fourth place, by forcing them into an extra playoff round that the fourth-place teams in easier divisions get to avoid.

The only way for a wild card to make sense would be to allow for the top three teams in, say, both Eastern Divisions to automatically qualify (preserving the importance of divisional standings) and then select the final two playoff spots by awarding Wild Cards to the remaining two teams (from either division) with the most points. It's simple, straightforward, and something done by both baseball and football.
Playoff matchups then are: Division winners against the two wild cards. Two seed against three seed within the division.


1A 4B*
2A 3A
1B 5B*
2B 3B

* Wild Card

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02-24-2013, 02:58 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
No matter what the NHL does, some teams are not going to be happy, just can't please everyone. But after having Winnipeg in the SE for two seasons, no team has the right to complain, because no matter what the new divisions look like, no one is going to get screwed like that.
Not true at all. Winnipeg and everyone involved knew they would be in SE for a few seasons going into it all. Big difference.

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02-24-2013, 03:00 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by azaloum90 View Post
I don't like this...

Seattle has a VERY slim chance of working.... They won't even be the primary tennants of the new building, which hasn't even broken ground yet, meanwhile Quebec's arena will be 12 months into the process of building by the time they do break ground in Seattle... Lastly, There has been TOO much talk of seattle, which leads me to believe that this entire relocation to seattle will never happen...

Lastly, Mr Bettman does NOT want an NHL team playing in Key Arena..
Quote:
NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly was quoted by La Presse of Canada in late January (*2012) as saying "Seattle, like Quebec, amphitheatres (have) to be built. Existing infrastructure - the Coliseum and the Key Arena, which served as home to the SuperSonics basketball club before being relocated to Oklahoma City, could serve as temporary solutions.
* emphasis mine

http://www.king5.com/news/Is-KeyAren...138899044.html

Mr. Bettman doesn't want to be in Key Arena as a matter of preference? Perhaps...

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02-24-2013, 03:05 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Can't see Chicago being real happy with the idea that they're the only O6 team now in the "West", all other 06 teams are in east. Interesting that they've found a way to put both CLB and DET in the "East"-perhaps that's the tradeoff of having two more teams to "fight through" to get through the playoffs (all Columbus jokes aside)-visually it looks 'easier" for West teams to make the playoffs.
There is no east or west anymore. Chicago will see the other O6 teams the exact same amount as New York will. It is just the new 'northeast+FLA' conference that will be stacked with O6 teams.

This new arrangement may end up being preferable, schedule wise, for the Blackhawks. Now, in stead of getting Detroit 3 times and maybe one home game against a couple of the other O6 teams, now the Hawks know that every single year they will host each of their 5 original 6 rivals. Now Hawks fans get to see Detroit, Boston, New York, Toronto and Montreal come to town at least once a year, in addition to the rivalries that will develop in their new division, and everyone else at least (or in the positive sense, for boring, non-draw franchises, only) once a year. Instead of that second visit from Phoenix or Anaheim (no offense intended to those teams), now you are getting a visit from Montreal, New York or Pittsburgh.

Nashville, St. Louis, Chicago, Minnesota and Winnipeg form a pretty great corridor of travellable road trips as well. Frankly, once you get past the loss of the Detroit rivalry, I think Chicago does pretty well with this alignment.

As a Leaf fan, who's team has jumped around a bit, I think I can say that rivalries comes and go. I loved the Leafs playing in the old Norris division, but I have grown to love their current division just the same. When it comes to fans getting passionate about a certain opposing team, I find it really doesn't matter as much who the other team is so much as it is just that they are doing it to your team. A couple of nasty divisional playoff games between Chicago and the Jets or the Wild and Detroit leaving the division won't seem so terrible.


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02-24-2013, 03:07 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Can't see Chicago being real happy with the idea that they're the only O6 team now in the "West", all other 06 teams are in east. Interesting that they've found a way to put both CLB and DET in the "East"-perhaps that's the tradeoff of having two more teams to "fight through" to get through the playoffs (all Columbus jokes aside)-visually it looks 'easier" for West teams to make the playoffs.
I don't think anyone other than a few fans would really care about that.

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02-24-2013, 03:07 PM
  #194
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so my thoughts since last night:

- if you're going to have 2 7-team conferences and 2 8-team conferences, why not put the 8-team conferences in the EST, where you have 16 teams. Makes things a lot easier for tv and game timings. Additionally, the tougher travel in the west 'balances' with the worse playoff chances in the east.
- i dont like the idea of a wildcard round. 4/8 is fine.
- as i said last night, losing detroit will make a lot of west teams unhappy, especially chicago. That said, detroit's national tv ratings and exposure could get a huge boost playing more games in their own timezone and it could end up being a net-positive for the league.
- winnipeg in the central is fine. They dont need to be with the other canadian teams. It makes more sense to play games in their timezone (or an hour off) than to be playing a bunch of pacific time games. I suspect minnesota and chicago could develop into solid rivalries for them.
- this move might save columbus as a franchise. Playing in the 'atlantic' gives them a ton of marquee matchups against big-name teams to sell tickets at home and having more games in the EST will be a huge boon to tv ratings and exposure.
- expansion/relocation wise, this hurts QC - because it doesnt make sense to move detroit and columbus east just to move one back to the central next year (phoenix) or in ~4-5 years (expansion). On the other hand, it doesnt really say anything about GTA2. GTA2 could easily fit into the 'central', a concession that might make the leafs more open to allowing the team in the league, as southern ontarians could cheer for both teams simultaneously because the odds of a playoff matchup would be pretty long. That move would also give winnipeg an in-conference canadian rival. On the west side, it heavily favors seattle expansion, plus one more pacific/mountain TZ team if phoenix is relocated.
- Florida: giving up on the SE will be a very good thing for washington and carolina, but florida still gets a bunch of good draws with 4 O6 teams and 6 snowbird teams. The intera-floridian rivalry was always bigger than what they had with the rest of the SE anyways.

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02-24-2013, 03:23 PM
  #195
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After sleeping it off....


I am still furious about this alignment. How can you screw the Hawks anymore? I guess next re-alignment they will move St Louis to some other conference and away from the Hawks. Seriously, they move the North Stars, the move the Leafs, now the move the Red Wings? The Wings and Hawks have the most games played against each other in NHL history...now they see each other what? twice a year? Sad, really.

If you put the Wings in the conference with Central division teams than that solves almost every problem they had. Instead they got greedy and started salivating at the thought of 4 original 6 teams in 1 conference...well great for them. Looking forward to hockey with almost every team playing a boring style of play. I hope the NHL regrets this and I hope Detroit gets screwed as well...like not making the playoffs because their team is so fragile. Why would they want to be in a division with the Bruins and Leafs when they already have the most injury prone team in the NHL? Good luck!

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02-24-2013, 03:23 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
No matter what the NHL does, some teams are not going to be happy, just can't please everyone. But after having Winnipeg in the SE for two seasons, no team has the right to complain, because no matter what the new divisions look like, no one is going to get screwed like that.
Exactly. Which is why I laugh when I read comments on here like, "Tampa will never go for it..." or "Chicago won't approve it..." as if ONE team can prevent something from happening.

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02-24-2013, 03:23 PM
  #197
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There is no east or west anymore. Chicago will see the other O6 teams the exact same amount as New York will. It is just the new 'northeast+FLA' conference that will be stacked with O6 teams.

This new arrangement may end up being preferable, schedule wise, for the Blackhawks. Now, in stead of getting Detroit 3 times and maybe one home game against a couple of the other O6 teams, now the Hawks know that every single year they will host each of their 5 original 6 rivals. Now Hawks fans get to see Detroit, Boston, New York, Toronto and Montreal come to town at least once a year, in addition to the rivalries that will develop in their new division, and everyone else at least (or in the positive sense, for boring, non-draw franchises, only) once a year. Instead of that second visit from Phoenix or Anaheim (no offense intended to those teams), now you are getting a visit from Montreal, New York or Pittsburgh.
How is there no East or West anymore?? A two-Conference system is still part of that proposal. It also appears to have a top-8 plan for the Playoffs, and likely 3 Rounds of in-Conference Playoffs. Though with that alignment it would mean no more ETZ teams playing against P/M/CTZ teams in the Playoffs until the Cup Final.

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02-24-2013, 03:25 PM
  #198
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Winnipeg will 'disappear' if they're not in a division with Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver. They'll be stuck in no-man's land. They'll never figure prominently on HNIC if they're not at least road teams on the second half of double-headers. Putting them in a division with all American teams is a terrible idea. Might as well leave them where they are. It makes no sense.

Any proposal where Winnipeg isn't with Edm, Cgy and Van is a bad one, as far as I'm concerned. This isn't about geography, it's about natural rivals, and not trying to force something that just isn't there.

I just don't see how taking away the Detroit-Chicago rivalry and Winnipeg-Edmonton rivalry in favor of a Chicago-Winnipeg 'rivalry' makes any sense.

I love the idea of going back to divisional playoff rounds again, but it means nothing if the right teams aren't in the right divisions.

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02-24-2013, 03:29 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
so my thoughts since last night:

- if you're going to have 2 7-team conferences and 2 8-team conferences, why not put the 8-team conferences in the EST, where you have 16 teams. Makes things a lot easier for tv and game timings. Additionally, the tougher travel in the west 'balances' with the worse playoff chances in the east.
- i dont like the idea of a wildcard round. 4/8 is fine.
- as i said last night, losing detroit will make a lot of west teams unhappy, especially chicago. That said, detroit's national tv ratings and exposure could get a huge boost playing more games in their own timezone and it could end up being a net-positive for the league.
- winnipeg in the central is fine. They dont need to be with the other canadian teams. It makes more sense to play games in their timezone (or an hour off) than to be playing a bunch of pacific time games. I suspect minnesota and chicago could develop into solid rivalries for them.
- this move might save columbus as a franchise. Playing in the 'atlantic' gives them a ton of marquee matchups against big-name teams to sell tickets at home and having more games in the EST will be a huge boon to tv ratings and exposure.
- expansion/relocation wise, this hurts QC - because it doesnt make sense to move detroit and columbus east just to move one back to the central next year (phoenix) or in ~4-5 years (expansion). On the other hand, it doesnt really say anything about GTA2. GTA2 could easily fit into the 'central', a concession that might make the leafs more open to allowing the team in the league, as southern ontarians could cheer for both teams simultaneously because the odds of a playoff matchup would be pretty long. That move would also give winnipeg an in-conference canadian rival. On the west side, it heavily favors seattle expansion, plus one more pacific/mountain TZ team if phoenix is relocated.
- Florida: giving up on the SE will be a very good thing for washington and carolina, but florida still gets a bunch of good draws with 4 O6 teams and 6 snowbird teams. The intera-floridian rivalry was always bigger than what they had with the rest of the SE anyways.
I agree with everything you said. The only caveat I would add is that, while the western teams may not like 'losing' Detroit, the fundamental restructuring of the schedule means that they are also 'gaining' that one home game against every other team. So, LA or Phoenix may be 'losing' one or two visits from Detroit, but they are gaining 5 visits from the other original 6 (plus one from every other 'marquee' east coast team).

As you said as well. this should save Columbus as a franchise. They may get drilled by the strong Atlantic teams on the ice for the foreseeable future, but just playing them will improve the strength of the franchise ten fold.

I think this alignment plan just makes an insane amount of sense. Any complaints some teams have about 'rivalries' will quickly be forgotten when the league is making record revenues next year.

And as a Leaf fan, in an eight team conference, I support just keeping the playings simple. Top 4 in each conference, never mind any cross over, wild card nonsense.

I love this alignment so much. I can not wait for next years playoffs!


Last edited by Pilky01: 02-24-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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02-24-2013, 03:32 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
No matter what the NHL does, some teams are not going to be happy, just can't please everyone. But after having Winnipeg in the SE for two seasons, no team has the right to complain, because no matter what the new divisions look like, no one is going to get screwed like that.
Yeah, Nashville, Detroit and Columbus scream Western Conference. And Dallas screams Pacific Division.

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