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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-24-2013, 03:09 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Again, they voted in favor of the previous realignment proposal which kept them with Chicago and the CTZ, while still separating them from the P/MTZ teams; and at the same time immensely improving their travel.
Yes, but that proposal was only GOOD for Detroit. This proposal is GREAT for Detroit. As long as we make Detroit happy...that is what really matters in all this. Cry and whine enough and you'll get your way apparently. But getting your way isn't enough I guess(1st proposal), they need to cater to your every need(2nd proposal).

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02-24-2013, 03:11 PM
  #227
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Why do Detroit and Columbus have to be further pleased? They voted in favor of the previous proposal. Montreal and the Florida teams (or one of them) voted against the previous proposal; and the PA rejected it. What does any of that have to do with pleasing Detroit with this proposal?
Detroit wasn't moved to please Detroit. Detroit was moved because they're a great choice to please both the northeast canadian teams and the Florida teams. It just so happens Detroit is rather okay with the situation. Columbus got the me too treatment.

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02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #228
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Is there any source on them voting in favour? The detailed results were never disclosed.

Mind you, I think they did because only 4 voted against, and I have my own speculation as to the 4 (the Florida teams and two NE canadian teams).
I believe they said it was 26-4 in favor and the speculation that the Rangers, Canadiens, Florida, and Tampa were against. However, I do not believe anything was public.

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02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #229
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Why did Detroit and Columbus have to be further pleased? They voted in favor of the previous proposal. Montreal and the Florida teams (or one of them) voted against the previous proposal; and the PA rejected it. What does any of that have to do with pleasing Detroit with this proposal?
This is true although the schedule would have cut the west coast travel down from where it was. And ultimately both Detroit and Columbus have both been expressing strongly an interest in moving East for quite some time.

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02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #230
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Idea: Do the Columbus move, but not the Detroit move. This leaves space for Quebec as well as Seattle.

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02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #231
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Hasn't it been widely reported that Detroit wants out of the West and into the East? I'm fairly certain that, if the NHL had it's way, Detroit would remain in the West.
If there isn't two Conferences then there isn't a Western Conference (other than the Pacific) that Detroit would be part of. And again, satisfying Detroit wasn't the problem with the previous realignment proposal; they agreed to it.

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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Yes, but that proposal was only GOOD for Detroit. This proposal is GREAT for Detroit. As long as we make Detroit happy...that is what really matters in all this. Cry and whine enough and you'll get your way apparently. But getting your way isn't enough I guess(1st proposal), they need to cater to your every need(2nd proposal).
Yes, but Detroit wasn't the issue for why the previous proposal hasn't already been adopted. How does putting Detroit in the East change those issues that prevented the previous realignment proposal from being implimented? If anything, there will likely be more teams voting against this alignment proposal than there were against the last one. And what does this alignment proposal have to offer the PA's concerns?

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Right, and the PA shot it down. So, now they came up with this idea which Detroit likely voted in favor of, as well. We could probably come up with 100 proposals that Detroit would approve and 100 they wouldn't. They are not married to one concept.
I'm just asking how this idea changes anything for the PA. It only further improves Detroit's and Columbus' alignment scenario, which were already significantly improved with the previous proposal. Of course they're going to like this even more, but those two teams were never the issue with the previous proposal being rejected.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-24-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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02-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #232
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Next to no chance the eastern powerhouses of the NHL allow this. I'm guessing this will be rejected again and revisited once the coyotes move in a year or two.

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02-24-2013, 03:15 PM
  #233
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As a Winnipeg Jets fans there were three things I was hoping for from the realignment

1) Get the Jets out of the SE - check
2) Home & Home with every out of conference team - check
3 Same division as Minnesota - road trips here I come! - check

So I am quite happy with this proposal, having Detroit would have been nice but you can't have everything...

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02-24-2013, 03:19 PM
  #234
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Next to no chance the eastern powerhouses of the NHL allow this. I'm guessing this will be rejected again and revisited once the coyotes move in a year or two.
Why wouldn't they? They were quite happy with the previous plan and this it's similar.As long as the NYC teams, Philly, Pittsburgh and Washington are together and play each other a crapton they get what they want. Even more so by getting rid of the Florida teams.

Meanwhile, the east Canada teams get to keep Boston and pick up 5 games a year vs Detroit at the cost of 2 more games against the Florida teams a year.

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02-24-2013, 03:20 PM
  #235
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Why do Detroit and Columbus have to be further pleased? They voted in favor of the previous proposal. Montreal and the Florida teams (or one of them) voted against the previous proposal; and the PA rejected it. What does any of that have to do with pleasing Detroit with this proposal?
Didn't say it was done to please them. I really do not understand why you are having such a difficult concept comprehending why they are moving Detroit and Columbus to the eastern conference. Again, it is about limiting travel for some, and getting teams into divisions with teams in the same time zone. Obviously, it is not going to work 100% as Calgary, Edmonton, and Colorado are the only teams in the Mountain Time Zone, but at least they are traveling only one-time zone away. THAT is about tv money. Dallas gets hurt with their ratings when they play many games that start at 9 or 9:30 locally. Lower ratings hurt how much the local station will pay for the broadcast rights. Even 8:30 starts hurt ratings for most teams.

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02-24-2013, 03:24 PM
  #236
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Didn't say it was done to please them. I really do not understand why you are having such a difficult concept comprehending why they are moving Detroit and Columbus to the eastern conference. Again, it is about limiting travel for some, and getting teams into divisions with teams in the same time zone. Obviously, it is not going to work 100% as Calgary, Edmonton, and Colorado are the only teams in the Mountain Time Zone, but at least they are traveling only one-time zone away. THAT is about tv money. Dallas gets hurt with their ratings when they play many games that start at 9 or 9:30 locally. Lower ratings hurt how much the local station will pay for the broadcast rights. Even 8:30 starts hurt ratings for most teams.
I really don't understand why you and some others are so easily thinking that this change from the previous proposal somehow resolves the concerns that the PA had about that proposal. And how you think that even more owners will be in favor of this compared to the previous proposal; though that's secondary as long as there's still enough positive vote for it to pass.

I certainly comprehend the idea of Detroit and Columbus being in with other ETZ teams (though nothing more exceptional in that than Colorado being in with other MTZ teams). I'm just not seeing at all how that change fixes anything that was rejected about the previous realignment proposal.

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02-24-2013, 03:25 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm just asking how this idea changes anything for the PA. It only further improves Detroit's and Columbus' alignment scenario, which were already significantly improved with the previous proposal. Of course they're going to like this even more, but those two teams were never the issue with the previous proposal being rejected.
Only speculation, but isn't it possible that rejecting the previous plan was only a strategic ploy used by Fehr heading into the CBA talks and the concerns they expressed were only an excuse to not give in to the owners at the time?

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02-24-2013, 03:27 PM
  #238
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As a Winnipeg Jets fans there were three things I was hoping for from the realignment

1) Get the Jets out of the SE - check
2) Home & Home with every out of conference team - check
3 Same division as Minnesota - road trips here I come! - check

So I am quite happy with this proposal, having Detroit would have been nice but you can't have everything...
Do you think it is a big deal to be the only Canadian team in the division/conference?

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02-24-2013, 03:29 PM
  #239
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Only speculation, but isn't it possible that rejecting the previous plan was only a strategic ploy used by Fehr heading into the CBA talks and the concerns they expressed were only an excuse to not give in to the owners at the time?
Sure, but then why change that proposal. Just give the PA the full details that they requested and let the alignment be as it was originally proposed. One would think!!, that the League had reasons for why that original proposal was better. Now with this proposal, it seems logical that even more teams will be unhappy with it than was unhappy with the previous.

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02-24-2013, 03:30 PM
  #240
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I really don't understand why you and some others are so easily thinking that this change from the previous proposal somehow resolves the concerns that the PA had about that proposal. And how you think that even more owners will be in favor of this compared to the previous proposal; though that's secondary as long as there's still enough positive vote for it to pass.
I find it curious myself as to why they didn't just add a playoff balancing thing to the previous proposal, so there must be more going on here in the background. Maybe Gary had less support from the owners than last time around so they had to do some more shuffling. Maybe part of the pa shtick is that the heavy travel west teams shouldnt be the ones that do wildcard stuff, hence the east conferences getting 8. Who knows...

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02-24-2013, 03:31 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Do you think it is a big deal to be the only Canadian team in the division/conference?
I'm not a Jets fan, but I would think the Pros of joining a Central conference/division would outweigh the Pros of playing in the same group as Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver.

Other than the Canadian media coverage, what other benefits are there for Jets fans to go with the Western Canadian teams?

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02-24-2013, 03:32 PM
  #242
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I really don't understand why you and some others are so easily thinking that this change from the previous proposal somehow resolves the concerns that the PA had about that proposal. And how you think that even more owners will be in favor of this compared to the previous proposal; though that's secondary as long as there's still enough positive vote for it to pass.

I certainly comprehend the idea of Detroit and Columbus being in with other ETZ teams (though nothing more exceptional in that than Colorado being in with other MTZ teams). I'm just not seeing at all how that change fixes anything that was rejected about the previous realignment proposal.
Should lessen overall travel. The wild-card idea for the play-offs. They "claimed" they were concerned about the fairness of having to beat out 4 teams in some divisions and only 3 in the others. So now, you beat out 3 teams and you get a shot. Yes, still not fair that the 4th place teams in the 8-team conferences have to play the extra game or short round while the 4th place teams of the 7-conference teams do not. I put "claimed" in quotes, because I think the PA rejecting it and their reasoning was b.s. Think it was about the CBA and using that as a negotiating chip.

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02-24-2013, 03:33 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
I find it curious myself as to why they didn't just add a playoff balancing thing to the previous proposal, so there must be more going on here in the background. Maybe Gary had less support from the owners than last time around so they had to do some more shuffling. Maybe part of the pa shtick is that the heavy travel west teams shouldnt be the ones that do wildcard stuff, hence the east conferences getting 8. Who knows...
Thanks WW, I was beginning to think that I was teletransported to Mars and no one understood my language.

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02-24-2013, 03:35 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Sure, but then why change that proposal. Just give the PA the full details that they requested and let the alignment be as it was originally proposed. One would think!!, that the League had reasons for why that original proposal was better. Now with this proposal, it seems logical that even more teams will be unhappy with it than was unhappy with the previous.
Again...only speculating...but maybe Detroit and Columbus saw the PA rejection as an opening to have more time to sell their argument to the rest of the owners to tweak the plan so they can go out East.

As someone else suggested, the Red Wings may have thought the previous plan was good enough to vote "yes", but this one is even better.

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02-24-2013, 03:39 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Should lessen overall travel. The wild-card idea for the play-offs. They "claimed" they were concerned about the fairness of having to beat out 4 teams in some divisions and only 3 in the others. So now, you beat out 3 teams and you get a shot. Yes, still not fair that the 4th place teams in the 8-team conferences have to play the extra game or short round while the 4th place teams of the 7-conference teams do not. I put "claimed" in quotes, because I think the PA rejecting it and their reasoning was b.s. Think it was about the CBA and using that as a negotiating chip.
Detroit and Columbus still being in Central Division was never quoted anywhere as being a travel issue for the PA. And as has been pointed out, Detroit, Chicago, Nashville, St Louis, and Minnesota http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1460 all had their travel greatly reduced with the previous proposal. The specific travel issue that had been mentioned was in relation to what was preceived as unnecessary distance for the Florida teams being part of the NE.

And with respect to the Wildcard idea, if that's the key to getting the PA's acceptance, well that could've just as easily have been adapted to the previous realignment proposal.

I'm only looking for sense, otherwise I don't see the point in debating this or any topic, if there's no sense to it.

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02-24-2013, 03:42 PM
  #246
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This is how I would like to see it set up (including bringing back the old names)....

Campbell Conference
Smyth Division
Anaheim (25pts)
Vancouver (24pts)
Phoenix (19pts)
San Jose (19pts)
Los Angeles (18pts)
Edmonton (17pts)
Calgary (15pts)
Seattle (Exp. Team)

Norris Division
Chicago (31pts)
St. Louis (22pts)
Nashville (21pts)
Dallas (19pts)
Minnesota (18pts)
Winnipeg (15pts)
Colorado (15pts)
Columbus (12pts)


Prince of Wales Conference
Adams Division
Montreal (26pts)
Ottawa (24pts)
Pittsburgh (24pts)
Boston (22pts)
Toronto (22pts)
Detroit (19pts)
Buffalo (13pts)
Quebec (Exp. Team)

Patrick Division
New Jersey (24pts)
Philadelphia (19pts)
Tampa Bay (19pts)
New York Rangers (18pts)
Carolina (17pts)
New York Islanders (17pts)
Florida (14pts)
Washington (13pts)


I think this structure makes a far better geographical sense. The old SW teams fit better together. Before it was lumping the so-called Atlantic teams together with North and South together and than makes no sense. This way you have teams from Florida to New York together, and then the Pittsburgh up to Canada together. Pitt is the one move that some may question, but it makes much more sense to me to put Pitt and Detroit in the Adams then adding more travel to the 2 Florida teams up to the North.

A note on Exp Teams:
I am not a fan. I don't think further dilution of talen is a good plan.
Lots of players are staying in Europe and Russia. If they were all coming here in droves and there was no KHL, I may feel differently, but that is not the case.

I could care less if one division has 7 and the other 8 especially if you play divisional playoffs. I included potential expansion teams in Quebec and Seattle.


Playoff structure...
Top 4 from each DIVISION make playoffs 1 plays 4 and 2 plays 3

Winner of 1 & 4 plays winner of 2 & 3 for Division Title.

Winner of each division title play each other for Conference Championship.

Winner of Conference championships play for the Cup.

This is how it was done for many years with the original names being brought back.
Screw it if some people in middle American "don't get it." There is a history to the game that I think is often lost, and the elegance of what is was is lost is should be brought back.

I believe the divisional playoffs will go a great deal father to pushing the original rivalries over the 1-8 setup that we now have.

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02-24-2013, 03:43 PM
  #247
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Again...only speculating...but maybe Detroit and Columbus saw the PA rejection as an opening to have more time to sell their argument to the rest of the owners to tweak the plan so they can go out East.

As someone else suggested, the Red Wings may have thought the previous plan was good enough to vote "yes", but this one is even better.
Yep, could be. That's an argument. But if that's the case then the key thing here isn't this new realignment scenario, that's only added fluff. The key thing will be any other changes which the League will be presenting to the PA in the hope to get their approval. But then, is it also assured that there won't be a greater negative vote from the owners with this new alignment idea? It was I think 4 against the last time, what if there's 8 against this time?

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02-24-2013, 03:45 PM
  #248
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Detroit and Columbus still being in Central Division was never quoted anywhere as being a travel issue for the PA. And as has been pointed out, Detroit, Chicago, Nashville, St Louis, and Minnesota http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1460 all had their travel greatly reduced with the previous proposal. The specific travel issue that had been mentioned was in relation to what was preceived as unnecessary distance for the Florida teams being part of the NE.

And with respect to the Wildcard idea, if that's the key to getting the PA's acceptance, well that could've just as easily have been adapted to the previous realignment proposal.

I'm only looking for sense, otherwise I don't see the point in debating this or any topic, if there's no sense to it.
The PA's alleged objections were not team-specific. It was the overall travel of the league. Agree on the wild card idea, but I do not recall anyone ever mentioning it when it first came up. I honestly think the PA objection was non-sense and they will approve this idea.

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02-24-2013, 03:46 PM
  #249
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Do you think it is a big deal to be the only Canadian team in the division/conference?
From my perspective no, I believe rivalries are built from playoff series not location which this model thrives on.

I'm not concerned about HNIC cause either way they put Winnipeg at the bottom of the Canadian teams and with this proposal we will be on NBC more to get the "exposure" some others are worried about. Also I prefer TSNJETS anyways, way better coverage.

Like that we will get Chicago/Toews six times a year.

But this is my perspective others feel much different but hey Winnipeg has an NHL team how can we complain...

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02-24-2013, 03:46 PM
  #250
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I really like this idea. Makes a lot of sense.
Yeah I was more or less thinking the same thing when I saw the new proposed division realignments. It hurts Quebec's chances and kind of limits Phoenix being able to move East, but that second Toronto team in the Central division makes a lot of sense, then throw another expansion team in Seattle to balance out the Pacific division and everything's even.

If you do go to Quebec you're pretty much going to have to move Columbus back to the central, which sucks for them.

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