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Should Thornton be traded?

View Poll Results: Should Joe Thornton be traded?
Yes 27 20.77%
No 86 66.15%
Not sure 17 13.08%
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Old
02-24-2013, 05:21 PM
  #26
Fistfullofbeer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
More like without him we're the NHL's Cleveland Browns. Without Thornton this team is worse than the jackets. We'll then have Couture getting slaughtered by top lines on a daily basis, Marleau being a 40-50 point player at best, Pavs being a 40 point player and all of the tweeners being 4th liners.
Couture might do ok if you had him centering 2 elite (or really really good wingers). Marleau qualifies as one but there is no-one else on the team right now who can fit the bill for his 2nd winger. Plus, I don't even want to imagine our 2nd line if we have Marleau-Cooter-xxx as our top-line.

We would suck so much, Dyson would name their newest model 'The Shark'.

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02-24-2013, 05:23 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
the zone entry is terrible on every line, couture can't do nothing, marleau can't do anything, pavs can barely do anything, boyle can't do anything, 3rd and 4th lines do i really need to say it? lol

with the curling back so every one can catch up isn't a telling point there? what is he supposed to do, go 1 against 2 or 3? with no support?
They just don't have the horses for a transition game. They have far too many guys that are slow or average and that's not going to get it done trying to run and gun even a little bit. And the lower lines don't have any speed guys that can stick-handle well at high speed. Sheppard is probably the best but he has problems skating and stick-handling but he's good stationary with the puck.

For now, the coaches need to give more help to the 3rd line at least by putting one of your top four producers on that line...likely Pavelski. Put as much speed as you can on his wings and Thornton's wings and hope for the best.

Sheppard-Thornton-Wingels
Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Kennedy/Galiardi-Pavelski-Burish

Handzus has definitely played better but he simply cannot carry the play when his wingers are two of Wingels, Galiardi, Burish, Sheppard or Desjardins. He should be put on the 4th line where they get likely the easiest matchups and just make him a PK specialist.

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02-24-2013, 05:24 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
I am totally with you on this. So much of a reversal from last year when both of us were more about keeping Pavs and Marleau and rather trade Jumbo.

If any of the top-line guys need to go my preference is Pavs, Marleau and Jumbo in that order.
Pavs, Jumbo, Marleau is my order. But I'd see Clowe go way before any of them, he just isn't that valuable.

But Pavs... It's not like he's been actively bad, like Clowe has. Pavs, even when not scoring, is valuable for faceoffs, PKing, standing in front of the net. He's a great defensive player, and isn't prone to bad giveaways. He just hasn't really been good at all this year. Even when the top line was clicking, even when Pavs was getting tons of points, he was just always a step, literally and figuratively, behind Thornton and Marleau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Couture might do ok if you had him centering 2 elite (or really really good wingers). Marleau qualifies as one but there is no-one else on the team right now who can fit the bill for his 2nd winger. Plus, I don't even want to imagine our 2nd line if we have Marleau-Cooter-xxx as our top-line.

We would suck so much, Dyson would name their newest model 'The Shark'.
Marleau-Couture-Drouin.

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Old
02-24-2013, 05:25 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Bad reason. A rebuild means the youngsters are taking over. Handing them a crutch is not a good thing as they will never learn to dominate on their own. JT's skills are unique and not likely to be passed to another generation. My counter is not a reason to trade him now, but your argument is horrid with regards a real rebuild and as a reason to keep JT. The best argument for keeping him is if he would be gracious in accepting a lesser role like 3c and PP specialist.

The only reason I am on the fence about trading JT now is that the org needs an overhaul in scouting and development until they commit to or accomplish that, wasting a pick is just stupid. Set the direction then fire away with trades. The same reason applies to trading either Marleau or Boyle.
I understand that and will not deny it. But you let go of Jumbo and you can forget the playoffs for a few years. And I want the Sharks to stay competitive. He can carry them till his contract is up.

Either way, I root for the team and not the players. I have followed professional sports for long enough to be able to get over the loss of the players. Getting to attached to a player(s) is a recipe for disaster.

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02-24-2013, 05:26 PM
  #30
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for the people who want a rebuild, i think nobody really knows what a rebuild would be like.

people here now complain when we win games for god sakes.

the sharks will not have a bruins rebuild, or a flyers rebuild. the sharks will be going the route of the oilers, islanders (just spend more), blue jackets, leafs.

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02-24-2013, 05:26 PM
  #31
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the only way i think jumbo leaves is if marleau & boyle leave first and DW just straight up tells him "we're tanking the next couple years and i can't force you to leave, but in your own interest it doesn't make sense for you to stick around with a bottom-feeding team"

i can't see jumbo leaving unless he knows the rebuild is coming whether he waives his NMC or not

that being said, I'd rather just fire Tmac and see whether his replacement can work some magic this year

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02-24-2013, 05:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Marleau-Couture-Drouin.

That would be a fun line to watch.

But now think of our 2nd line.

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02-24-2013, 05:27 PM
  #33
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If you deal Joe, you have to trade Marleau, Boyle, Havlat and Clowe. You are either all in or all out.

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02-24-2013, 05:28 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
That would be a fun line to watch.

But now think of our 2nd line.
Hertl-Pavelski-Havlat?

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02-24-2013, 05:28 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
If you deal Joe, you have to trade Marleau, Boyle, Havlat and Clowe. You are either all in or all out.
Quoting one of my people from work: 'Totes McGotes'

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02-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #36
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we should trade clowe and havlat whether we are rebuilding or not

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02-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Hertl-Pavelski-Havlat?
Terrible. Pavs is slow, Havlat just dangles and Hertl will demand a trade because he finds that he hates SJ weather.

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02-24-2013, 05:31 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Honestly, I'd advocate trading Pavelski right now. He's a square peg on this team right now. He has a ****-ton of value around the league.
I agree, and Pavelski is my favorite player. He is an amazing player, but we need a pure shooter on the top line right wing. 29 teams want him, if we can get a better fit, I'd be fine with the jersey I wear on every gameday being outdated.

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02-24-2013, 05:34 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
If you deal Joe, you have to trade Marleau, Boyle, Havlat and Clowe. You are either all in or all out.
That's an absolutist statement I just don't agree with. Even with a young crop that you're turning to on a rebuild, they will need a veteran presence to help them along.

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02-24-2013, 05:37 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
I dunno if he was so predictable you'd think he wouldn't be able to still post PPG or PPG+ numbers right? Also blazing fast and shoots the puck alot? Like Marleau? I don't see him lighting the world on fire but no just cuz hes only played in SJ it's totes cool beans.

He's here to stay. Teal with it. Just trade guys like Boyle, Couture, Clowe, Havlat, Pavelski, Hertl, 1rst round picks, Burns and Marleau instead.
I want Marleau to stay because he is my favourite player and yeah you caught me there on the part about him being in SJ his whole career, I'll admit that. And yes, Thornton does post great PP numbers when our PP is rolling but he's still very predictable and defensemen are always expecting him to pass first, which he does. If Thornton shot the puck more then great, but he doesn't.

Also, tell me you're joking when you say trade Couture, Pavelski, Hertl and 1st round picks...lol

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02-24-2013, 05:41 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
And yes, Thornton does post great PP numbers when our PP is rolling but he's still very predictable and defensemen are always expecting him to pass first, which he does.
He definitely needs to shoot more, but it's not as extreme as you're making it out to be. It's not like Thornton is Rajon Rondo. Defenders aren't just giving him an empty lane and he's refusing to shoot. Their sticks are in the passing lane and their body is in the shooting lane.

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02-24-2013, 05:44 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharski View Post
the only way i think jumbo leaves is if marleau & boyle leave first and DW just straight up tells him "we're tanking the next couple years and i can't force you to leave, but in your own interest it doesn't make sense for you to stick around with a bottom-feeding team"

i can't see jumbo leaving unless he knows the rebuild is coming whether he waives his NMC or not

that being said, I'd rather just fire Tmac and see whether his replacement can work some magic this year
Agree. If a so called re-build is to occur, then Boyle being the oldest should be the obvious first to go.
But truth be told, the first step would be the coaching change to see if another can get this team back to winning.

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02-24-2013, 05:48 PM
  #43
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While tempting to trade any of the top core for the right value, it would have to be combined with a continuing fail and a complete overhaul. That means moving Joe, Patty or Boyle for picks and youth. There is no good reason just yet for that. I'd expect a management change first before any of the core were moved. If the season continues as a disaster, its not out of the question.

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02-24-2013, 06:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
While tempting to trade any of the top core for the right value, it would have to be combined with a continuing fail and a complete overhaul. That means moving Joe, Patty or Boyle for picks and youth. There is no good reason just yet for that. I'd expect a management change first before any of the core were moved. If the season continues as a disaster, its not out of the question.
I agree that a management change should come first before a rebuild begins. They have a lot of front office remodeling to do before rebuilding would be worth pursuing.

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02-24-2013, 06:00 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
That's an absolutist statement I just don't agree with. Even with a young crop that you're turning to on a rebuild, they will need a veteran presence to help them along.
You need vets to teach. They have to be able to accept lesser roles a la Doan (unlike Modano). They need to keep an even keel off ice with regards partying, etc. Basically guys where hockey is first or maybe second next to family.

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02-24-2013, 06:11 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
I understand that and will not deny it. But you let go of Jumbo and you can forget the playoffs for a few years. And I want the Sharks to stay competitive. He can carry them till his contract is up.

Either way, I root for the team and not the players. I have followed professional sports for long enough to be able to get over the loss of the players. Getting to attached to a player(s) is a recipe for disaster.
If you want a cup in the future, you need to buy into total rebuild. If you want perpetually competitive, that is the route that the Leafs have been trying for 40 years and the same one St. Louis did for about a decade. Perpetually competitive means no cup. Detroit doesn't count because they never rebuilt; they were restocking from the word GO.

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02-24-2013, 06:12 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
You need vets to teach. They have to be able to accept lesser roles a la Doan (unlike Modano). They need to keep an even keel off ice with regards partying, etc. Basically guys where hockey is first or maybe second next to family.
And I think only Clowe out of him, Thornton, Marleau, Boyle, and Havlat have any off-ice issues like that. I don't think they'd have to worry too much off-ice with any of those guys setting an example but some may be better teachers than others.

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02-24-2013, 06:32 PM
  #48
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As much as I complain about Joe I think I'd actually still be against it unless he requests himself. I don't care for that atmosphere of looking at these guys as nothing more than assets and wanting to pimp them out on the corner for a couple of picks and a shiny new prospect.

As far as I know Joe was blindsided by Boston being sent here but he didn't whine about it, didn't sulk, didn't use it as an excuse to have a bad year. He put his head down and became the first player in the NHL to lead the league in points in a season where he was traded. Always respected that. He brought in some nice hardware on his own as well as bringing in a Rocket for Cheech.

I admire the loyalty of Detroit, they've had some bad moments but they are pretty isolated and for the most part they seem to be pretty good at letting their guys that made an impact go out on their own terms no matter how much people complain and scream about what a waste of a roster spot Draper is or Maltby or Holmstrom.

I'd much rather have that kind of reputation for the Sharks than a leaf like attitude of hating a guy like Sundin for having the nerve of wanting to finish his career in the same sweater instead of not only being whored out but then expected to come limping back in in the morning for another go around so they can trade him out for even more picks the next year.

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02-24-2013, 06:36 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And I think only Clowe out of him, Thornton, Marleau, Boyle, and Havlat have any off-ice issues like that. I don't think they'd have to worry too much off-ice with any of those guys setting an example but some may be better teachers than others.
Just a little on Boyle before he was married. JT and Marleau both have some teaching skills although I wouldn't think of either as big mentors. I don't think JT or Marleau are anywhere near coach level in teaching skills like Francis, Oates, etc. Pavs and Marleau are both involved in other hockey endeavors outside of the Sharks, Marleau has a camp and Pavs a junior team.

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02-24-2013, 06:38 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by joseph_kerr View Post
As much as I complain about Joe I think I'd actually still be against it unless he requests himself. I don't care for that atmosphere of looking at these guys as nothing more than assets and wanting to pimp them out on the corner for a couple of picks and a shiny new prospect.

As far as I know Joe was blindsided by Boston being sent here but he didn't whine about it, didn't sulk, didn't use it as an excuse to have a bad year. He put his head down and became the first player in the NHL to lead the league in points in a season where he was traded. Always respected that. He brought in some nice hardware on his own as well as bringing in a Rocket for Cheech.

I admire the loyalty of Detroit, they've had some bad moments but they are pretty isolated and for the most part they seem to be pretty good at letting their guys that made an impact go out on their own terms no matter how much people complain and scream about what a waste of a roster spot Draper is or Maltby or Holmstrom.

I'd much rather have that kind of reputation for the Sharks than a leaf like attitude of hating a guy like Sundin for having the nerve of wanting to finish his career in the same sweater instead of not only being whored out but then expected to come limping back in in the morning for another go around so they can trade him out for even more picks the next year.
I don't have a problem with your line of thinking as long as a player will willingly take a lesser role when his skills decline. I actually applaud this line of thinking.

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