The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings
Friedman: “That’s the players’ biggest concern. They want there to be a more even chance in those two larger conferences, and I think they’re working on some sort of wild card.”
While the potential wild card format hasn’t been worked out, Hockey Night in Canada’s Glenn Healy thinks it would be beneficial for a couple of reasons.
“The wild card is great for the players because that’s revenue and they’re going to get half of that money,” said Healy. "The other big thing, you talk about revenue, playoff rivalries, I mean having Detroit play Toronto; they haven’t played since the 90’s, it is all good news.”
That's nice. Appease the players with more money and then perhaps they'll not bother to complain about there being uneven chances with the larger Conferences. I wonder if the players realize that only the teams involved in that wildcard play-in will get that extra money, and that they'll actually have to play more games to get it.
And secondly, I still don't see how having a "wildcard" play-in to the Playoffs evens out anything. Those play-in games will be at least just one more game that those teams have to play, one more opportunity at injuries, and less time to rest up for the actual Playoffs. Regardless of whether there are 7 teams in a Conference or 8, all of those teams play 82 games. And the % making the Playoffs won't change with a "wildcard". 57% of the teams will be in the Playoffs in 7-team Conferences, and 50% of the teams will be in the Playoffs in 8-team Conferences.
I hope you're wrong. You might be right, though, but I hope you're wrong. Expansion to the U.S. is a horrendous idea.
I hope I'm wrong, too. I think the NHL should reap the benefits of another NE Canadian team.
Personally, I could live with expand to QC and Houston, and relo to Seattle. Seattle and Houston are both large markets and both markets with good demographics for hockey. Keep in mind Seattle will get tons of bleed from Vancouverites seeking cheaper tickets (like Buffalo/Toronto). There's also a strong tradition of hockey in the surrounding area. Houston is (I think) the 4th largest US city, has a good tech industry and other good demographics for hockey, and has an AHL team that last I checked has been in top 10 for attendance and revenues for a solid number of years. Now is a good time to try Houston.
I do not support relocation to QC, however, from a business perspective. QC should be saved for expansion to collect on the massive expansion fees they could get there.
I'm fine with relocation to either Seattle or Houston. Relocate away. But not to both places if there's only one team to relocate. And definitely not expansion to either city. Expansion to Canada only should be the premise.
Markham is a cash cow the league needs to exploit. It's just stupid not to.
Kansas City is a big no-go for me, though. St. Louis isn't really stable at present time, so another team in the Midwest makes no sense. The fact the Blues may lose their rivalry with the Wings won't help, either.
I'm fine with relocation to either Seattle or Houston. Relocate away. But not to both places if there's only one team to relocate. And definitely not expansion to either city. Expansion to Canada only should be the premise.
Markham is a cash cow the league needs to exploit. It's just stupid not to.
Kansas City is a big no-go for me, though. St. Louis isn't really stable at present time, so another team in the Midwest makes no sense. The fact the Blues may lose their rivalry with the Wings won't help, either.
Markham over QC works for me as well. But expansion absolutely will not happen to 2 Canadian teams, bank on it. It'll be a US team and a Canadian team. 8/32 (1/4) of the team Canadian. No way US media is allowing any more than that. As long as Seattle or Houston is one of the expansion locations (With the other in line for relo), I don't have a problem with that. Any other market, I agree with you. KC is too unstable a choice, don't even get me started on Vegas. Anything else in the US is too small or terrible demographics.
Agree to disagree. It's a disaster for Winnipeg, imo.
You just don't get it. The divisional realignment is all about time zones and TV coverage. Winnipeg doesn't want to be in a division with other Canadian teams for that very reason. The Jets need their divisional games to be in the Central time zone so that fans can actually watch their road games on TV at a reasonable hour.
Winnipeg home games will never be shown nationally in prime time because they play in the central time zone. The CTZ means they would have to go head to head with Toronto and Montreal. Obviously that is not going to happen. They can't start their home games at 10pm ETZ like the West either. That is why Winnipeg plays HNIC Canada games at 12:00pm. There's just no other way.
If Winnipeg were to move to a division with Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton it would mean a lot more games would start at 8:30 or 9:00 pm and end at midnight. This is simply unworkable for TV.
If Winnipeg were to move to a division with Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton it would mean a lot more games would start at 8:30 or 9:00 pm and end at midnight. This is simply unworkable for TV.
think about it.
You just don't get it. Hardly anyone is talking about Winnipeg being in a Division with Vancouver.
You just don't get it. Hardly anyone is talking about Winnipeg being in a Division with Vancouver.
Well, considering that Winnipeg is on record wanting to move to the West and people are complaining that they're not in a division with Canadian teams I think they are.
You just don't get it. The divisional realignment is all about time zones and TV coverage. Winnipeg doesn't want to be in a division with other Canadian teams for that very reason. The Jets need their divisional games to be in the Central time zone so that fans can actually watch their road games on TV at a reasonable hour.
Winnipeg home games will never be shown nationally in prime time because they play in the central time zone. The CTZ means they would have to go head to head with Toronto and Montreal. Obviously that is not going to happen. They can't start their home games at 10pm ETZ like the West either. That is why Winnipeg plays HNIC Canada games at 12:00pm. There's just no other way.
If Winnipeg were to move to a division with Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton it would mean a lot more games would start at 8:30 or 9:00 pm and end at midnight. This is simply unworkable for TV.
think about it.
This is what realignment is all about...be it Detroit, Winnipeg, Dallas, etc...having the high majority of your games in Prime Time television slots.
Broadcasters make money by selling advertising and can charge more with more viewers...thus Prime Time is when you want to be playing. When Broadcasters make more money...they pay the teams more money for the rights to show the games!
Any Eastern Teams playing a majority of their games against Central time zone teams (ie: Detroit and Columbus) does not make financial sense.
Central time zone teams playing the majority of their games against Mountain time zone teams does not make financial sense.
Colorado playing the majority of their games against Pacific time zones teams does not make financial sense.
Thus you see the two Eastern teams moving within their time zone and Colorado (one would assume) being much more pleased to be playing Central time zone teams than Pacific time zone teams.
All makes sense to this Winnipeg fan. Home and home against the other Canadian teams is more than ok by me. Never EVER want to be stuck in a division/conference with Edm, Calg and/or Van just because they are Canadian teams.
I can't see this alignment being at all good for the west in any shape or form, especially the far west. The previous proposal was bad enough, this just makes it measurably worse. I think the League needs to split into two; the haves and the havenots. I've sometimes said, it's the East and the Rest.
I couldn't agree more with you Orr.
To me, this the NHL is like US Congress.
The Red Wings were the tee baggers.
This system is terrible.
1) Thanks for killing New York and Boston.
-So it makes sense for Boston to be with Detroit and Florida, but not New York their closest opponent?
-No other sport has NY and BOS in separate divisions EXCEPT the NHL which now will further this rivalry...good enough to be on "Rivalry night".
2) Thanks for ruining New York and the original six.
-So now the Rangers have no historical heritage with any original six.
3) Oh and don't forget Chicago too.
-Also no original six.
4) Western Conference....who cares.
-Will anybody in the east CARE about better WC starting times without Detroit?
This is just STUPID STUPID STUPID.
Obviously the Wild, Canucks, Red Wings, and Blue Jackets, Stars, among others formed a tea party segment of the NHL, unwilling to compromise and making it totally impractical to do a simple quick revision. Great.
Sorry this whole "4 conference" talk is stupid.
Why is the NHL determined to go back to the 1980s...4 divisions works with 20 teams, not 30.
It seems like the NHL due to bickering, jealousy, and stupidity wants to have some archaic system which further makes the sport more difficult to follow for the casual fan AND once more marginalizes the New York-Boston rivalry.
This is the only sport with no NY and BOS team in the same division and it is just is dumb.
2) I think the problem here is greed and special interests.
A. Detroit thinks they are entitled to go east, which would mess up the conference balances and leave Columbus in the dark being the only EST. Not to mention having 5 of the 6 originals in 1 conference?
B. Minnesota whinning about having start times too late.
C. Vancouver wanting their cake (less travel) and eating it too (won't go to the pacific).
D. No "4" Canada teams with a US team.
You have jealousy of people who dis-like the EC travel, yet not understanding basic NA geography.
My solution:
Sensible compromise. Don't try to punish the ECF or imbalance the conferences with too many good, big market teams in one. Prioritize what matters most.
Think outside the box.
4 divisions is too small, for the amount of league teams and marketing, you need 6. BUT since 8 teams get in, having a 4 or 6 team division is not a big deal.
Do this.
AND
3) RE-do Seeing NBA Style
-If you finish 1st in the conference you get the 1 spot
-If you win your division you get the 2-4 seed
-So Say CHI has 110 points to lead the conference and StL has 109 and the NW team Minnesota has 100 and LA has 99
1) CHI 2) StL 3) Minnesota 4) LA
-If you win the division but you have the 5th most points you are still the 4 seed BUT you do not get home ice round one.
EX: LA wins the west with 98 points....DET is 3rd in the central with 102 points as the 5 seed. DET gets home ice.
-conference balance remains the same
-Dallas gets their travel fixed
-Colorado is with more traditional rivals
-Minnesota is in a better divisional fit
-Nashville coming east won't upset conference powers and the time zone difference is 1 hour which is not a big deal considering weekend game
-Vancouver is in the Pacific and with/if there is a Seattle has a close rival
OR
Someone tell what is wrong with using one of these two?
Quote:
:
East
Atlantic
Rangers
Islanders
NJ
PHI
PIT
Northeast
BOS
BUF
MON
OTT
TOR
Southeast
WAS
FLA
TB
CAR NASHVILLE OR COLUMBUS
West
Central
DET
CHI
StL NASH or Columbus
Dallas
Minn
Northwest
CAL
EDM WIN
VAN
Pacific
SJ
ANA
LA
PHO (Seattle?) Colorado
Italic=changes
-conference balance remains the same
-Dallas gets their travel fixed
-Colorado is with more traditional rivals
-Minnesota is in a better divisional fit
-Nashville coming east won't upset conference powers and the time zone difference is 1 hour which is not a big deal considering weekend game
-Vancouver is in the Pacific and with/if there is a Seattle has a close rival
For those that seem to be of this persuasion, let me ask you why you hold the position: Why is it Detroit's job to be the league's *****? Why does Detroit need to be the team to play out of their time zone and weaken their own ratings and profits by propping up crappier markets? What does it say for those markets if they can't thrive without one team? And why should Detroit be everyone's rival?
It's funny how many non-Wings fans feel entitled to the Wings. Maybe you guys should throw in the towel and become WIngs fans!
The Wings org want to be in the east. They're in the eastern time zone. Their viewers want to see them in the ETZ as it'll be easier for them to watch. Sure, they've got Chicago in the West.. and ultimately more traditional rivals in the east (I personally don't give a rats behind about St. Louis, Nashville, et. al. compared to Toronto, Montreal).
So if its beneficial for the WIngs to move east and the reason for them moving east is lining up with every other team's realignment (playing within or near to their own time zone as much as possible, against traditional rivals) then why shouldn't they, other than other teams/their fans feeling entitled to the Wings and their profits at the expense of the Wings and their fans?
To me, it seems that those arguing that this is selfish of the team because it hurts X team are being a bit hypocritical, as that has been the case for the Wings for the last 15 years. If you have a decent argument against I'm all ears (but only if I do text to speech).
I couldn't agree more with you Orr.
To me, this the NHL is like US Congress.
The Red Wings were the tee baggers.
This system is terrible.
1) Thanks for killing New York and Boston.
-So it makes sense for Boston to be with Detroit and Florida, but not New York their closest opponent?
-No other sport has NY and BOS in separate divisions EXCEPT the NHL which now will further this rivalry...good enough to be on "Rivalry night".
2) Thanks for ruining New York and the original six.
-So now the Rangers have no historical heritage with any original six.
3) Oh and don't forget Chicago too.
-Also no original six.
4) Western Conference....who cares.
-Will anybody in the east CARE about better WC starting times without Detroit?
This is just STUPID STUPID STUPID.
Obviously the Wild, Canucks, Red Wings, and Blue Jackets, Stars, among others formed a tea party segment of the NHL, unwilling to compromise and making it totally impractical to do a simple quick revision. Great.
You people out East may hate this proposal, but us Yahoos out here in flyover country most certainly LOVE this proposal!!!!
Knowing the geography of Toronto helps you to understand why "Markham" is the only option. Since there is no "South" end of Toronto unless you're in a boat you can only go West, North or East.
Bettman will NEVER allow Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo or any West GTA team to exist because of the threat it causes to Buffalo. Therefore it is only East or North. The East end has the lowest population and would be too difficult for the heavily populated West end to reach - especially on weeknights - going through Toronto.
Therefore the only valid/realistic option is the North End and Markham fits the bill perfectly. It can be reached by both the East and West ends of the city. The arena will be built on top of a GO Train station and 100 yards away from the 407 freeway and it is far enough removed that Buffalo won't be affected.
Add in the fact that they would inherit the Leafs old Norris rivals (Chi, Min, STL) plus get Winnipeg too and they could/would easily take a Central spot leaving another expansion cousin (Seattle) for the Pacific.
I think it is an absolute cash cow that is just about ready to be milked.
Last edited by Major4Boarding: 02-24-2013 at 07:30 PM.
Reason: Removed direct response to deleted post
For those that seem to be of this persuasion, let me ask you why you hold the position: Why is it Detroit's job to be the league's *****? Why does Detroit need to be the team to play out of their time zone and weaken their own ratings and profits by propping up crappier markets? What does it say for those markets if they can't thrive without one team? And why should Detroit be everyone's rival?
It's funny how many non-Wings fans feel entitled to the Wings. Maybe you guys should throw in the towel and become WIngs fans!
The Wings org want to be in the east. They're in the eastern time zone. Their viewers want to see them in the ETZ as it'll be easier for them to watch. Sure, they've got Chicago in the West.. and ultimately more traditional rivals in the east (I personally don't give a rats behind about St. Louis, Nashville, et. al. compared to Toronto, Montreal).
So if its beneficial for the WIngs to move east and the reason for them moving east is lining up with every other team's realignment (playing within or near to their own time zone as much as possible, against traditional rivals) then why shouldn't they, other than other teams/their fans feeling entitled to the Wings and their profits at the expense of the Wings and their fans?
To me, it seems that those arguing that this is selfish of the team because it hurts X team are being a bit hypocritical, as that has been the case for the Wings for the last 15 years. If you have a decent argument against I'm all ears (but only if I do text to speech).
I could not agree more!
I am quite sure Detroit and Columbus would switch their current situation with ANY two Eastern time zone teams (regardless of their current division) that would volunteer to do so.
Any takers...Boston? New York Rangers (could play against O6 Chicago)? Pittsburgh? Didn't think so
Not done yet for NBA to seattle. Its still pending NBA approval.
That's a rubber stamp approval. Sacramento has their deadlines to try to save their team (way too late to start something now), but once the deadlines run out Seattle will get approved by everyone but Bennett in OKC.
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“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
For those that seem to be of this persuasion, let me ask you why you hold the position: Why is it Detroit's job to be the league's *****? Why does Detroit need to be the team to play out of their time zone and weaken their own ratings and profits by propping up crappier markets? What does it say for those markets if they can't thrive without one team? And why should Detroit be everyone's rival?
It's funny how many non-Wings fans feel entitled to the Wings. Maybe you guys should throw in the towel and become WIngs fans!
The Wings org want to be in the east. They're in the eastern time zone. Their viewers want to see them in the ETZ as it'll be easier for them to watch. Sure, they've got Chicago in the West.. and ultimately more traditional rivals in the east (I personally don't give a rats behind about St. Louis, Nashville, et. al. compared to Toronto, Montreal).
So if its beneficial for the WIngs to move east and the reason for them moving east is lining up with every other team's realignment (playing within or near to their own time zone as much as possible, against traditional rivals) then why shouldn't they, other than other teams/their fans feeling entitled to the Wings and their profits at the expense of the Wings and their fans?
To me, it seems that those arguing that this is selfish of the team because it hurts X team are being a bit hypocritical, as that has been the case for the Wings for the last 15 years. If you have a decent argument against I'm all ears (but only if I do text to speech).
Detroit sees this as their chance.
Toronto saw their chance in 1998, after Quebec and Hartford left the northeast corridor, and especially with the Nordiques going west. Add in the Jets relocating to Phoenix, leaving no 2nd Canadian team(Winnipeg and Toronto were in the Norris together before the Rockies left for NJ), and a new provincial rival in Ottawa, and Toronto went for it. They didn't care what happened to the West. They just wanted out.
The day the Thrashers left for Winnipeg, Detroit has seen it as their chance to get out. If they had to, they would stay in a more central group, as long as they didn't have to go west more than other ETZ teams. However, there's no question Detroit would love to go east. That's their first choice. If there is any way they can do it, they'll do it.
Detroit, or Columbus, make as much sense in a western conference as NY, or Boston, or Montreal, of Philly, etc.
Detroit lived with their situation, and beat pretty much everyone on the ice while doing it. If they are to go east after this season, they've earned it. Columbus just flat out needs it, and should've been in the east from the day they came into the league.
You're taking "Markham" much too literally. The proper name is Toronto 2 and will probably be called "Ontario" anyway.
Knowing the geography of Toronto helps you to understand why "Markham" is the only option. Since there is no "South" end of Toronto unless you're in a boat you can only go West, North or East.
Bettman will NEVER allow Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo or any West GTA team to exist because of the threat it causes to Buffalo. Therefore it is only East or North. The East end has the lowest population and would be too difficult for the heavily populated West end to reach - especially on weeknights - going through Toronto.
Therefore the only valid/realistic option is the North End and Markham fits the bill perfectly. It can be reached by both the East and West ends of the city. The arena will be built on top of a GO Train station and 100 yards away from the 407 freeway and it is far enough removed that Buffalo won't be affected.
Add in the fact that they would inherit the Leafs old Norris rivals (Chi, Min, STL) plus get Winnipeg too and they could/would easily take a Central spot leaving another expansion cousin (Seattle) for the Pacific.
I think it is an absolute cash cow that is just about ready to be milked.
Markham is closer to Toronto than Kanata is to Ottawa.
I am quite sure Detroit and Columbus would switch their current situation with ANY two Eastern time zone teams (regardless of their current division) that would volunteer to do so.
Any takers...Boston? New York Rangers (could play against O6 Chicago)? Pittsburgh? Didn't think so
Yea, we're looking at you especially, Rangers! You're the largest US market! Just think of how much you could help the NHL grow in the West! Stop being so selfish! Or how about you, Carolina? You're closer to Nashville. Natural rivals! You know you want to travel to Winnipeg and Colorado and watch more games at 9pm while you're at it!
Yea, that's a bunch of ridiculous BS. Markets should stand up on their own merits within their own time zones as much as possible.
